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Thread: Vick is done

  1. #1
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    Vick is done

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...07-30-09-48-35

    Vick co-defendant pleads guilty

    By LARRY O'DELL
    Associated Press Writer

    RICHMOND, Va. (AP) -- One of Michael Vick's co-defendants pleaded guilty Monday to federal dogfighting conspiracy charges in a plea agreement with prosecutors.

    Tony Taylor, 34, who will be sentenced Dec. 14, said he was not promised any specific sentence in return for his cooperation with the government.

    Taylor faces a maximum of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine, but likely will get less under federal sentencing guidelines. The guideline range will be determined by court officials, and U.S. District Judge Henry E. Hudson can depart from that range if he finds aggravating or mitigating circumstances.

    "You're pleading guilty and taking your chances, right?" Hudson asked Taylor.

    He responded, "Yes."

    Taylor had the same answer when Hudson asked: "You have agreed to cooperate fully with the United States, is that right?"

    Taylor, of Hampton, entered his plea to conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities, and conspiring to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture.

    Vick, the star quarterback for the Atlanta Falcons, and two other co-defendants pleaded not guilty last week to the same charges.

    Taylor and his attorney, Stephen A. Hudgins of Newport News, refused to answer reporters' questions as they left the federal courthouse after the 15-minute hearing.

    Prosecutors claimed in a July 17 indictment that Taylor found the Surry County property that Vick purchased and used as the site of "Bad Newz Kennels," a dogfighting enterprise. Taylor also allegedly helped purchase pit bulls and killed at least two dogs that fared poorly in test fights.

    According to the 18-page indictment, the dogfighting ring executed underperforming dogs by drowning, hanging and other brutal means. It alleges that the fights offered purses as high as $26,000.

    The grisly details outlined in the indictment have fueled protests and public outrage against Vick. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has banned Vick from the Falcons' training camp while the league investigates.

    Vick and Purnell A. Peace, 35, of Virginia Beach, and Quanis L. Phillips, 28, of Atlanta, are scheduled for trial Nov. 26. They remain free without bond.
    This is just the beginning of the end.

  2. #2
    isnt Taylor the one Vick threw under the bus when this initially got reported - i dont remember the exact quote but something like "I try and do good by my cousins and they do this stuff behind my back?"

  3. #3

    Falcons are lucky

    Vick was never going to become a top NFL QB despite being the leagues highest player. This allows the Falcons to make a change they would have had to make anyway in a few years and get on to finding the QB of their future

  4. #4
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    The Falcons sure look like dopes...

    ... for trading Matt Schaub.
    “Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it."- Mark Twain

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by tecumseh View Post
    Vick was never going to become a top NFL QB despite being the leagues highest player. This allows the Falcons to make a change they would have had to make anyway in a few years and get on to finding the QB of their future
    But, unless they can use Vick's legal problems to get some salary cap relief they will be so hamstrung by the cap they will not be able to get that QB or get a team around him to be a real competitor for at least 2 more years.

    I feel for Arthur Blank-- he wants to spend the money to have a big winner but in football money is not part of the success-failure formula because everyone spends the same. In basketball and especially baseball money can by you a title (or at least buy you the ability to compete for a title) but not so in football.

    Blank needs to buy the Braves!!

    -Jason "in truth, I like many aspects of the football salary cap-- football is a ton fairer than baseball, that's for sure" Evans

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNTDevil View Post
    ... for trading Matt Schaub.
    Really? They got excellent value for him. 2 second round draft picks and moving up in the first round. Plus, Schaub is making really good money for a guy who has done next to nothing other than look good in mop-up or spot duty.

    I won't be shocked if Joey Harrigton has about as good a season as Schaub. In the cap-crucial NFL, Harrigton also comes at a cheaper salary-- plus the Falcons got a pair of very high-quality picks out of it.

    -Jason "with a new coach in Atlanta, it is not like Schaub's history with the franchise means anything anyway" Evans

  7. #7
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    My vote for Atlanta Falcon's 2007 quarterback: JOHN SMOLTZ

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDSBlueDevl View Post
    This is just the beginning of the end.
    While I think this guy flipping on Vick is the more likely scenario, is there any chance he's going to say the following?

    "It was my operation, I let Ookie down. We used Mike's name and money and lied to him. Ookie's only crime is trusting his family members. I apologize to him and his mother for getting him involved in this. I don't know what these other witnesses have been saying to the Feds because Mike was never there, and I intend to testify to that in court to help clear poor Ookie's name."

    He goes on to cop to a number of the things they say Vick did, and he takes the years with Vick returning to play for the Redskins next year.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post

    -Jason "in truth, I like many aspects of the football salary cap-- football is a ton fairer than baseball, that's for sure" Evans
    That's not for sure. In fact, its just the opposite. I know we've been over this in the past, and I don't want to hijack this thread, but I can't let this common misconception slide. Its simply not true.

    I would say for a sport to be fair, the widest variety of teams should be able to win the championship. Thus, over time, a sport with the wider variety of teams to win the championship is "fairer."

    A bunch of spans, to prove I'm not cherry-picking:

    Last 5 years:
    4 Different Super Bowl Winners
    5 Different World Series Winners

    Last 10 years:
    7 Different Super Bowl Winners
    8 Different World Series Winners

    Last 15 years:
    10 Different Super Bowl Winners
    12 Different World Series Winners

    Last 20 years:
    13 Different Super Bowl Winners
    17 Different World Series Winners

    As you can see, in each span, there were more different baseball teams to win than football teams. How is football more fair than baseball?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrady View Post
    That's not for sure. In fact, its just the opposite. I know we've been over this in the past, and I don't want to hijack this thread, but I can't let this common misconception slide. Its simply not true.

    I would say for a sport to be fair, the widest variety of teams should be able to win the championship. Thus, over time, a sport with the wider variety of teams to win the championship is "fairer."

    A bunch of spans, to prove I'm not cherry-picking:

    Last 5 years:
    4 Different Super Bowl Winners
    5 Different World Series Winners

    Last 10 years:
    7 Different Super Bowl Winners
    8 Different World Series Winners

    Last 15 years:
    10 Different Super Bowl Winners
    12 Different World Series Winners

    Last 20 years:
    13 Different Super Bowl Winners
    17 Different World Series Winners

    As you can see, in each span, there were more different baseball teams to win than football teams. How is football more fair than baseball?
    Winning a championship may be too narrow of a scope. For example, the Yankees haven't won one since 2000. But, on the back of the biggest payroll in the game, they've been in the playoffs every year since 1995. Their payroll has given them a better shot to win every year than most other teams in the league, even if they've failed to capitalize lately. There are obviously exceptions to the rule, but I think there is probably a higher correlation between payroll and winning percentage in baseball than in football. For example, the top 10 payrolls this year are, in order (highest to lowest) - Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Angels, White Sox, Dodgers, Mariners, Cubs, Tigers, Orioles. 8 of those 10 are in strong contention (5 in first place), and the collective record of those teams is 566-476. The bottom 10 payrolls belong to, in order (lowest to highest) - Devil Rays, Marlins, Nationals, Pirates, Diamondbacks, Rockies, Padres, Indians, Royals, and Rangers. 4 of those teams are still in contention (1 in first place), and their collective record is 495-552. This is obviously a limited sample size, but it looks to me like a good correlation between payroll and record.

    Once a team makes the post-season, they're on more or less equal footing as far as being able to win a title. Baseball and football are identical in this way - baseball may even be "more fair" in the postseason because of the more limited value of home field advantage. But payroll provides a big leg up to teams in trying to reach the post-season in baseball, where it doesn't provide the same in football (or basketball, for that matter).
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  11. #11
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    Bringing the discussion back to Michael Vick, and noting that what I'm about to say is sensitive around here, but something in me wants to say it anyway, would there be anywhere near as much outrage if he'd just sexually assaulted a woman? And wouldn't we all be calling for due process and let the case take it's course? He'd still be playing, that's for sure. And there wouldn't have been 160,000+ letters of protest.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostondevil View Post
    Bringing the discussion back to Michael Vick, and noting that what I'm about to say is sensitive around here, but something in me wants to say it anyway, would there be anywhere near as much outrage if he'd just sexually assaulted a woman? And wouldn't we all be calling for due process and let the case take it's course? He'd still be playing, that's for sure. And there wouldn't have been 160,000+ letters of protest.
    I can see that point, however,.....

    1) Due Process - Yes, he deserves it but there is one fact that is already proven: Dog fighting and acts of animal cruelty were taking place on his property. That is undisputable. The only thing in question was how much he knew about it.

    2) Animals - It may sound crazy to say but it's true. Most people get upset more about the mistreatment of animals than they do humans. I guess because animals are 100 percent innocent. No agendas. Humans can be manipulative, lying, agenda-filled, and so on. But an innocent animal? And we're not talking spanking too hard here. We're talking some really sick stuff. Electrocution, drowning, dismembering, etc.

    There's a proven link between people who treat animals in that way and how they later in life turn out to be sick nutbags (don't know the official term here) that often end up doing the same things to humans.

    This crime is just sick.

    -EarlJam

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrady View Post
    That's not for sure. In fact, its just the opposite. I know we've been over this in the past, and I don't want to hijack this thread, but I can't let this common misconception slide. Its simply not true.

    I would say for a sport to be fair, the widest variety of teams should be able to win the championship. Thus, over time, a sport with the wider variety of teams to win the championship is "fairer."

    A bunch of spans, to prove I'm not cherry-picking:

    Last 5 years:
    4 Different Super Bowl Winners
    5 Different World Series Winners

    Last 10 years:
    7 Different Super Bowl Winners
    8 Different World Series Winners

    Last 15 years:
    10 Different Super Bowl Winners
    12 Different World Series Winners

    Last 20 years:
    13 Different Super Bowl Winners
    17 Different World Series Winners

    As you can see, in each span, there were more different baseball teams to win than football teams. How is football more fair than baseball?
    Leaving to other postings any discussion about the fairness of using just the champions as the test for variability/fairness, I just need to point out that, well, your numbers are wrong. For the last 5 years you are correct, 5 different World Series winners, 4 different Super Bowl winners(Pats repeating). Over the last 10 years, both sports have had 7 different winners(Pats repeat twice, Broncos once, while Yankees repeat twice, Marlins once). Over the last 15 years, baseball had 9 different winners while football had 10 different winners(Baseball repeats: Yankees three times, Marlins once, Blue Jays once, and 1994 no champion while in football: Patriots twice, Cowboys twice, Broncos once). And if you go for the full 20, its 13 for baseball, and 12 for football(add a Twins repeat to the 15 year baseball list, while adding two 49ers and one Redskin repeat to football). To make a long story short, I'd say your measurement scale shows no significant difference between the sports(which may be something you think is relevant to the discussion, but wasn't the point you tried to make), with the NFL winning by a hair in the middle time period, and MLB winning by a nose on the ends.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deslok View Post
    Leaving to other postings any discussion about the fairness of using just the champions as the test for variability/fairness, I just need to point out that, well, your numbers are wrong. For the last 5 years you are correct, 5 different World Series winners, 4 different Super Bowl winners(Pats repeating). Over the last 10 years, both sports have had 7 different winners(Pats repeat twice, Broncos once, while Yankees repeat twice, Marlins once). Over the last 15 years, baseball had 9 different winners while football had 10 different winners(Baseball repeats: Yankees three times, Marlins once, Blue Jays once, and 1994 no champion while in football: Patriots twice, Cowboys twice, Broncos once). And if you go for the full 20, its 13 for baseball, and 12 for football(add a Twins repeat to the 15 year baseball list, while adding two 49ers and one Redskin repeat to football). To make a long story short, I'd say your measurement scale shows no significant difference between the sports(which may be something you think is relevant to the discussion, but wasn't the point you tried to make), with the NFL winning by a hair in the middle time period, and MLB winning by a nose on the ends.
    I was working off the wiki. website, i might have miscounted a couple things in my haste. either way, i reject the notion that baseball is much less fair than football. its simply not true.

    besides, with revenue sharing now, the only thing holding many teams back from spending is the greed of the owners.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Bostondevil View Post
    Bringing the discussion back to Michael Vick, and noting that what I'm about to say is sensitive around here, but something in me wants to say it anyway, would there be anywhere near as much outrage if he'd just sexually assaulted a woman? And wouldn't we all be calling for due process and let the case take it's course? He'd still be playing, that's for sure. And there wouldn't have been 160,000+ letters of protest.
    I wasn't aware that he hadn't been given due process. "Innocnet until proven guilty" is the obligation of the legal system. His employers (NFL, Nike, Reebok) are not under the same obligation. They have no obligation to be "fair" to Vick (whatever that means), instead they have an obligation to maximize profits for their stockholders.

    If you or I are arrested for a crime our liberty can not be taken away from us without due process and a trial where we are presuemd "innocent until proven guilty". However, if our presence at work is a disruption, or our performance and focus at work are compromised, or we have dramatically hurt the image of our employer then we will probably be let go.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    While I think this guy flipping on Vick is the more likely scenario, is there any chance he's going to say the following?

    "It was my operation, I let Ookie down. We used Mike's name and money and lied to him. Ookie's only crime is trusting his family members. I apologize to him and his mother for getting him involved in this. I don't know what these other witnesses have been saying to the Feds because Mike was never there, and I intend to testify to that in court to help clear poor Ookie's name."

    He goes on to cop to a number of the things they say Vick did, and he takes the years with Vick returning to play for the Redskins next year.
    What are the chances? Well, looking at the latest Vegas odds, chances are much, much more favorable for the following things to happen:

    1) Hell freezes over, Satan admits he was wrong and that he's kind of a jerk
    2) Barry Bonds quits one home run shy of Aaron and holds media "Hugfest"
    3) Nifong wins Mr. Integrity of Universe Pageant
    4) State of Californina suddenly turns to glass and develops a heart and lungs
    5) Duke and UNC fall so much in love with each other, an official end to the rivalry is announced
    6) Water in Niagra Falls turns to salt water, then to vinegar, with the bed of the falls turning into a "sea of potatoes," resulting in a salt & vinegar potato chip Wonderland!
    7) EarlJam gets a promotion

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by EarlJam View Post
    6) Water in Niagra Falls turns to salt water, then to vinegar, with the bed of the falls turning into a "sea of potatoes," resulting in a salt & vinegar potato chip Wonderland!

    That is great!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    While I think this guy flipping on Vick is the more likely scenario, is there any chance he's going to say the following?

    "It was my operation, I let Ookie down. We used Mike's name and money and lied to him. Ookie's only crime is trusting his family members. I apologize to him and his mother for getting him involved in this. I don't know what these other witnesses have been saying to the Feds because Mike was never there, and I intend to testify to that in court to help clear poor Ookie's name."

    He goes on to cop to a number of the things they say Vick did, and he takes the years with Vick returning to play for the Redskins next year.
    While I love EarlJam's discouting of this theory (the Niagra Falls comment was brilliant!), I too think this is a reasonable theory.

    Vick is looking at losing tens of millions of dollars and perhaps losing his entire career. The other folks connected to this are people who beneift greatly if Mike is still a rich guy who can provide them with the benefits of his fame-- as he has been doing for about a decade. Is there any doubt that his cousin/friends would do a little extra time in jail to get Mike off? If you were Mike, wouldn't you tell these guys "someone has to take the fall for me. Whoever does it will get a million dollars."

    Plus, it is not like we are talking about someone completely innocent going to jail for 10 years to keep Mike out. Federal sentencing guidelines on these crimes call for a pretty modest sentence (less than a year if they are first -time offenders). Doing a year or so in jail may seem like a very good trade to these guys if it keeps Mike out of jail and allows him to keep his multi-million dollar career.

    -Jason "to me, this is a no brainer for Mike and for his friends" Evans

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    While I love EarlJam's discouting of this theory (the Niagra Falls comment was brilliant!), I too think this is a reasonable theory.

    Vick is looking at losing tens of millions of dollars and perhaps losing his entire career. The other folks connected to this are people who beneift greatly if Mike is still a rich guy who can provide them with the benefits of his fame-- as he has been doing for about a decade. Is there any doubt that his cousin/friends would do a little extra time in jail to get Mike off? If you were Mike, wouldn't you tell these guys "someone has to take the fall for me. Whoever does it will get a million dollars."

    Plus, it is not like we are talking about someone completely innocent going to jail for 10 years to keep Mike out. Federal sentencing guidelines on these crimes call for a pretty modest sentence (less than a year if they are first -time offenders). Doing a year or so in jail may seem like a very good trade to these guys if it keeps Mike out of jail and allows him to keep his multi-million dollar career.

    -Jason "to me, this is a no brainer for Mike and for his friends" Evans
    Jason,

    I was actually thinking about that too. "Hey, one guy takes the fall, you'll be compensated when you get out. All will be fine."

    Then I got to thinking. The Feds have so much stuff on Vick already. Seems to me like the Feds know what they're doing with this co-defendent, and that they wouldn't even be bothering with him if it wasn't a "help US (Feds) out or else" deal.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but if this guy were to say something like mentioned above, to take the fall for Vick, I just don't think it would be that simple. The Feds know what they're doing here, and I think they know this guy is going to nail him.

    What a mess.

    -EarlJam

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDSBlueDevl View Post
    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...07-30-09-48-35



    This is just the beginning of the end.
    I'm afraid I have to agree with you. Even of all charges get dropped against him, it will stick. He's done.

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