Coaching Bigs

[DukeFanSince1990]

Have I ever told you about my dog? His name was Teddy. He was a good ole dog...trying to change the subject.

[freshmanjs]

The reason this discussion never goes anywhere is because the conversation is usually poorly argued from the outset. Just like in this thread. If you want to have a good discussion about Duke's big men (past, present, and future), it is important to approach the issue logically, rather than just jumping to a conclusion that there is a problem with the coaching and, specifically, that the problem with the coaching is that the coaches were guards or are too short.

the things to discuss would be:

1) Recruiting: Is Duke getting the right talent at PF and C positions? How does our recruiting success compare to other top programs? To the extent it is knowable, why have the recruits Duke has missed on chosen to go elsewhere?

2) Coaching / player development: Have Duke players developed at an appropriate rate compared to what is typical for players at their level? If not, what is the cause of the difference? The height of the coaches may be one possible reason to consider, but is certainly not the most obvious thing to look at

3) Style of play: Does the coaching staff favor a style of play that reduces the role of the bigs on offense? Or is that not true?

4) Results in college: How does Duke big performance, over time, compare to other programs?

5) Results in NBA: How do Duke bigs do in getting drafted and performing in the NBA vs. others?

These things are all interrelated, of course, but I think worthy of an interesting discussion which is impossible to have when you start from "our coaches must be too small"

[MChambers]

Have I ever told you about my dog? His name was Teddy. He was a good ole dog...trying to change the subject.

Big dog or small dog?

[CameronBornAndBred]

I will add one thing, that like it or not we must take as truth. Tony Parker highlighted in his roundtable discussion that he was concerned about 1.) the development of bigs at Duke 2.) Wojo, a short guard, coaching the bigs.

We can debate amongst ourselves all we want whether there is anything wrong with Wojo coaching them (I say no) but the truth is that it obviously does make an impression on the recruits. And also like it or not, their opinion is more valuable than yours.

[freshmanjs]

I will add one thing, that like it or not we must take as truth. Tony Parker highlighted in his roundtable discussion that he was concerned about 1.) the development of bigs at Duke 2.) Wojo, a short guard, coaching the bigs.

We can debate amongst ourselves all we want whether there is anything wrong with Wojo coaching them (I say no) but the truth is that it obviously does make an impression on the recruits. And also like it or not, their opinion is more valuable than yours.

Sure, that's an input to the discussion. Recruits say (and think) a lot of things. That comment by one guy who is still (at least outwardly) still strongly considering Duke doesn't shed a lot of light on the situation.

[DukeFanSince1990]

Big dog or small dog?

He was a big dog, I had a hard time training him. I am only 5'9".

[OldPhiKap]

He was a big dog, I had a hard time training him. I am only 5'9".

Have you ever won with a three cat offense? If so, I know a head coach who needs a call.

[SMO]

I don't know how John Thompson Jr. ever coached Allen Iverson or any of his small men. He's just too tall to develop smalls.

[Dukehky]

I will say this, I remember being at Duke basketball camp in one of Wojo's first year on staff. He gave a speech about competitiveness and "stick to it and you can do it, look at me, I'm 5'10 and can't dunk etc." He and Coach K both said that Wojo came in wanting to coach the bigs because people said he couldn't do it, so he took it as a challenge to go out there and prove that he could. I think that if Wojo was bad at it, K would be the first to put him elsewhere, and I'm also sure that big recruits look a lot more at the players who came through than the coach.

The only reason I bring this up is because I think that Wojo kind of got the job because Collins and Dawkins were occupied elsewhere, and he wanted to do it. To think that after 10 plus years he hasn't gotten markedly better after working with countless people, attending camps, working with the US team is a little absurd.

I think that if Collins takes off and there's room for a new hire, then it may be time to go after a "bigs coach," similar to how Al Brown was brought into the girls team to largely work on their post games. I'm not sure about all the speculation that Wojo hasn't been coaching them anymore, but I do believe it has been more of a team effort with Wojo, Capel, and THE Nate James.

To be perfectly honest, I think that when big recruits bring up Wojo as a potential issue with their coming to Duke, it is probably just a way to make some excuse so that people don't "blame" them. Maybe that's completely off base, but its the way that I feel about it.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Bigs get three dribbles

Noooooo!!!!!!!!!

Edit...well that was quoted from a very interesting and fun to read by post by Greybeard that has apparently been eaten by the expanse of the internet.

[loldevilz]

I would trust Wojo a lot more as a big man coach if he could:

A) Get one our big men to be a first team ALL-ACC caliber player
B) Get a top 5 caliber big man to commit

[Mcluhan]

So often that I thought it was a parody post.

Especially when Eric Meek was nominated for a coaching job.

[Mcluhan]

I would trust Wojo a lot more as a big man coach if he could:

A) Get one our big men to be a first team ALL-ACC caliber player

According to this line of thinking, our caches 'got' Jason Williams to be an All-American but failed to 'get' Sean Dockery to do the same.

[Wildcat]

Is our coaching staff, too much like our player personnel? Homogeneous. Do all of our coaches have to be former K players? I think this is hurting us in more ways than we would like to admit. The coaches, with the exception of Cape, have no experience or exposure to other coaching styles, philosophy or methodology outside of K. Look at other elite programs; their coaching staff is more diverse in terms of experience and exposure.

[Newton_14]

I will say this, I remember being at Duke basketball camp in one of Wojo's first year on staff. He gave a speech about competitiveness and "stick to it and you can do it, look at me, I'm 5'10 and can't dunk etc." He and Coach K both said that Wojo came in wanting to coach the bigs because people said he couldn't do it, so he took it as a challenge to go out there and prove that he could. I think that if Wojo was bad at it, K would be the first to put him elsewhere, and I'm also sure that big recruits look a lot more at the players who came through than the coach.

The only reason I bring this up is because I think that Wojo kind of got the job because Collins and Dawkins were occupied elsewhere, and he wanted to do it. To think that after 10 plus years he hasn't gotten markedly better after working with countless people, attending camps, working with the US team is a little absurd.

I think that if Collins takes off and there's room for a new hire, then it may be time to go after a "bigs coach," similar to how Al Brown was brought into the girls team to largely work on their post games. I'm not sure about all the speculation that Wojo hasn't been coaching them anymore, but I do believe it has been more of a team effort with Wojo, Capel, and THE Nate James.

To be perfectly honest, I think that when big recruits bring up Wojo as a potential issue with their coming to Duke, it is probably just a way to make some excuse so that people don't "blame" them. Maybe that's completely off base, but its the way that I feel about it.

It wasn't speculation. It may have been a temporary move, and he did not say when he changed it or when/if he changed it back, but Coach K said himself on the December 16th recording of the daily "Duke Basketball Report with Coach K and Bob Harris", that he had recently moved Wojo over to work with the PG's, and Capel over to work with the Bigs. Could have lasted a month, could have lasted a week, K did not specify. Not that it matters because I imagine all 3 of the assistants work with all of the players at some point in each season. K has official assignments for each assistant for sure, but that does not mean they aren't allowed to work with the other players on the team.

You can still access all of the daily DBR recordings at GoDuke.Com.

At any rate, Wojo is a good coach, and the fact that he is short and played PG is really irrelevant. Since only recent history counts/matters, if you look at Shelden Williams, he improved tremendously from Freshman year to Senior year. Shelden was very raw as a Freshman with only basic post moves. Defensively, staying out of foul trouble was problematic when he came in. Year over year he improved on both sides of the ball. By the time he was a Senior, the nickname "The Landlord" had been earned. Dude could block shots without fouling, and more importantly, keep the ball in play where a teammate could grab the block and snuff out the possession. Shav got better as well year over year but the injuries had a significant impact as did an unrealistic dad. Then he left early.

McBob came in, had a really good Freshman year complimenting Shelden, and had a back surgery that for some odd reason is never remembered. Despite the surgery robbing him of his hops, McBob had a really good Soph year making 2nd Team All-ACC, leading the team in scoring and rebounding. Josh had ok post moves for a Sophomore, and those post moves were better than he showed his Freshman year. What he did not have was shooting touch, and that my friends is not something that can be corrected with coaching. He was a natural righty who changed over to shooting lefty as a kid due to a wrist injury and he never switched back. I always thought that played a role in the lack of shooting touch, but we will never know.

Kyle Singler played his first 2 years in the post and certainly developed into a great post defender despite the lack of height. If you watched Kyle defend in the post as a Sophomore, his post defense was textbook perfect. He did not get beat much, but when he did it was due to the offensive post player having a significant size advantage, or in some cases a significant quickness advantage. Pull the tapes from the 2009 ACC Tourney and watch Kyle defend in the post in that tourney. Impressive.

I could go on, as both Mason and Miles have improved year over year, as did Lance and Zoubs when he finally got healthy. When you talk about developing bigs people only focus on offense, but development on defense is just as critical. Wojo has helped all of these guys grow and develop.

The only questions I have for the naysayers are, Who is the bigs coach at UNC? Kentucky? Ohio St? Syracuse? Louisville? Mich St? What are their height's? What position did they play in College? Did they even play in College? (No googling allowed)

[Kedsy]

I would trust Wojo a lot more as a big man coach if he could:

A) Get one our big men to be a first team ALL-ACC caliber player

You mean like Carlos Boozer and Shelden Williams, both of whom were coached by Wojo?

[greybeard]

Pay half court, four on four or five on five. Four on four is better, two inside players (bigs), two outide players littles. Bigs two dribbles, guards once. Bigs must touch once befoe you can shoot. Big catches and scores in the paint, two points but cannot simply take advantage of height advantage, All other scores one. Three seconds counts. 10-12 wins or 12 minutes whichever first. Winner's out. Winners stay on, come off after 2 in a row if guys waiting.

Reverse, big guys out and littles in. If Big passes it into paint and guy scores, two points. One point for all other shots shots. Bigs three dribbles, littles two. Sameother rules apply.

Five on five basically the same thing. The two inside littles, two dribbles and two points if catch and scores in paint off pass from big two points. All other shots one point.

Every body learns from others from both perspectives. Bigs learn from littles different moves off inside catch, littles learn from bigs how they set up man and move to space. Both learn how to see space and work together to connect in good spots. etc. NO COACHES OR COACHING EXCEPT AMONG PLAYERS AND KEEP THAT DOWN.

[Edouble]

Honestly, Wojo played PG, and I would not want him coaching our PGs.

I know that sounds bad, but the guy got by on guts and heart. He couldn't handle the ball with his left hand. He was probably the least skilled PG we have had in the Coach K era. He is now charged with teaching skills to a position that he didn't play. That sounds rough.

To me he is in the mold of a Coach K, Bobby Knight, Bob Huggins, Frank Martin, etc. etc.--yell at your players and get them pumped up to your level. As a player, he helped our team with his emotional input as much as his basketball skills. Maybe he knows Xs and Os? IDK, but how would you react if you found out that Mateen Cleaves was coaching the big guys at Michigan State. Wouldn't you do a double take? I know I would.

This thread comes up every year because it, sadly, continues to be relevant, especially now that we find out it is hurting us in recruiting. Pick apart my last statement if you will, but if a potential recruit mentions it as a reason that he is second guessing Duke, it is hurting us.

Here's the thing... you can argue 'til the cows come home about how others schools have short guys coaching their bigs. There is one huge difference between those guys and Wojo.

Everybody knows Wojo!!!!!!! Do you see how that's different? We've all seen him on the court. Our image of him is not one we would associate with coaching elite centers and power forwards. Maybe other coaches are equally short, but recruits and recruit's parents don't have an image of them ingrained in their heads. Wojo, on the other hand, was a polarizing point guard who played small and scrappy, and almost fed his ticker, so it seemed, off of being a smaller, less physically-able, less talented, but grittier combatant. That's the image all these people have of Wojo. It's just difficult to all of the sudden imagine him as a coach of elite big man talent.

It's kind of like how Ice Cube is now doing family pictures. He's that badass from N.W.A. It just doesn't fit for me. I have this image of him that is so deep in my psyche, that even if his movies are funny, it just seems a bit off. Wojo... WOJO?!?! is coaching our bigs guys? I think that is the gut reaction of most recruits and parents of recruits. And they are not gonna read through 800 posts explaining how it is irrational to think that.

If Parks and Wojo are equally good at coaching bigs, we still get more bigs coming in with Parks on the bench. It just feels better.

[airowe]

Can recruits have a perception of Wojo as a player in their minds if Brand and Boozer are too distant a memory for them to remember?

[LamJones]

It's been a "cause clebre" for you over the years, yet this is your fourth post?

Yes, it has. I gave up trying to share my opinions on the subject when my posts were flagged/deleted. Do you have something substantive to add?