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  1. #61
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    Well

    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Well, I'm not sure how much the addition of HB would have helped this year's Duke team. Obviously he would have played for us, and been a quality scorer, but he seems sort of redundant. Barnes is a great shooter with questionable handle who seems not to always bring it on defense. Sound familiar? Yes, I know he has more size than our other SF options, but other than that what would he give us that we couldn't get from our other shooters?
    He's a decent rebounder, better than our other SF options. Also, maybe Coach K could have gotten more defense out of him. In any event, his defense would have improved just from having to try to cover Rivers!

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoHeel View Post
    I don't really buy the whole argument that Barnes needs Marshall to be effective or that Marshall's absence is the explanation for Barnes' struggles. I also disagree that he failed to improve this year.

    I'm too lazy to look up stats at the moment, but I think it's worth noting the obvious point that Marshall makes everyone better; most of our numbers dropped when Marshall was off the court, so there is not that much unique about Barnes in that regard. Yes, Barnes improved dramatically when Marshall took over from LDII, but some/ much of that was a function of getting accustomed to the college game.

    More to the point, Barnes started slumping toward the end of this season, well before Marshall went out. I can't remember a 20-point game in the last few weeks of the season, except the ACC final. At one point about halfway through the season, he was in the high-40s in terms of overall shooting percentage and mid 40s for 3P%. He probably finished in the mid-40s and mid-30s respectively. For whatever reason, he lost his outside touch. It happens, shooters go through slumps. This one was particularly ill-timed, but a shooting slump is hardly uncommon. I felt like I watched him miss a million wide-open threes in the last quarter of the season.

    He definitely improved his ability to drive to the basket this season, as evidenced by his increase in foul shot attempts. But once his outside touch left him, he had a little more trouble in that aspect of his game too. In part, this was because his first step is not that quick and once he was less of a threat to take a one-dribble pull up, defenders could play him to prevent the drive. I also think it was part a loss of confidence. It seemed so obvious that he was pressing the last few weeks, which is what happens to most players who loses his or her touch. Few players who are first and foremost shooters can keep a shooting slump from affecting other parts of the game.

    I agree with some of the criticism of Barnes' personality, i.e. that he is too self-conscious of his brand, that he appears robotic and has trouble just letting the game come to him. And I fear that has taken some of the fun out of the game for him. But much of the criticism I find over the top and off putting. Absent the tremendous expectations that surround him, which admittedly he helped create, we would be more likely to focus on his impressive feat of having led our team in scoring two years in a row. How many sophomores that average 17+ points and 5+ rebounds catch this much heat?
    I hear you and if it were not for the way Barnes handles himself, I too would be put off by the critics. But how many kids half-way through their freshman year are calling up a reporter to ask about their status as all american or NPOY???

    Lots of kids come in over-hyped, which is not their fault, but not all of them buy into like Barnes has...

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Well, I'm not sure how much the addition of HB would have helped this year's Duke team. Obviously he would have played for us, and been a quality scorer, but he seems sort of redundant. Barnes is a great shooter with questionable handle who seems not to always bring it on defense. Sound familiar? Yes, I know he has more size than our other SF options, but other than that what would he give us that we couldn't get from our other shooters?
    Well, in a comparison with Dawkins (who is the guy I assume you're implying), Barnes is a better rebounder, better defender, and has a more diverse offensive skillset. He'd be a substantial upgrade at the 3 this year.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    I realize this is a totally biased view, but I do think Barnes would have been better off coming to Duke. We certainly could have used him this year.
    That's so funny. I just emailed a UNC friend/fan that I thought Barnes would have been much better off at Duke. As much as I despise the guy, our offense is more geared for his style of play vs. what they currently offer at UNC.

    Plus all the intangibles, like arrogance, self-righteousness, etc. It would have fit the narrative so much better.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Well, in a comparison with Dawkins (who is the guy I assume you're implying), Barnes is a better rebounder, better defender, and has a more diverse offensive skillset. He'd be a substantial upgrade at the 3 this year.
    And Duke never would have had to worry about him going an entire game without taking a shot.

  6. #66
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    raleigh
    i think that HWNSNBM would not only have thrived at duke, he'd be a better player and his ego might have been "refined" to reflect his abilities and accomplishments, rather than his wants and desires...
    "Either we're going down, or they are....... Kirk out!"

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonpie23 View Post
    i think that HWNSNBM would not only have thrived at duke, he'd be a better player and his ego might have been "refined" to reflect his abilities and accomplishments, rather than his wants and desires...
    You know, the more I think about it, this could really work in our favor with regards to recruiting.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Well, in a comparison with Dawkins (who is the guy I assume you're implying), Barnes is a better rebounder, better defender, and has a more diverse offensive skillset. He'd be a substantial upgrade at the 3 this year.
    Well, I agree he's a much better player than Andre (although I don't think Andre is the only player at Duke whose skillset is somewhat redundant with Barnes's). But I don't know if the upgrade would have made too much of a difference in our overall team dynamic. We still would have been reliant on the three-point shot, our defense would still be poor by Duke standards, we still would have had only one player who could get his own shot, etc.

  9. #69
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    Fayetteville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Well, I agree he's a much better player than Andre (although I don't think Andre is the only player at Duke whose skillset is somewhat redundant with Barnes's). But I don't know if the upgrade would have made too much of a difference in our overall team dynamic. We still would have been reliant on the three-point shot, our defense would still be poor by Duke standards, we still would have had only one player who could get his own shot, etc.
    HB would have been an excellent addition to our team last year. Considering we never really had a SF, that's one position that would have been cemented from the get go. Let's remember how many different line-ups we ran out on the court looking for something that would work.

    HB would definitely have helped with rebounding. I know he gets docked for this at UNC, but let's be honest, exactly how many rebounds do you expect to be leftover for HB when you've got Zeller and Henson patroling the paint.

    As for HB's defense, I'm not sure why people are so down on him. I seem to recall he played Kyle fairly even last year. Is he a defensive stopper? No, but he was clearly better than anything we could put on the court.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoHeel View Post
    I agree with some of the criticism of Barnes' personality, i.e. that he is too self-conscious of his brand, that he appears robotic and has trouble just letting the game come to him. And I fear that has taken some of the fun out of the game for him. But much of the criticism I find over the top and off putting. Absent the tremendous expectations that surround him, which admittedly he helped create, we would be more likely to focus on his impressive feat of having led our team in scoring two years in a row. How many sophomores that average 17+ points and 5+ rebounds catch this much heat?
    Like others, I have been fascinated by the Barnes story, his strengths and weaknesses on the court, and his personality. It's the last - his personality - that I want to comment on here. It's complicated - both his personality and my response. Had he chosen to attend Duke, and had he behaved exactly the way he has behaved as a UNC guy, I think I'd be very uncomfortable; and I fear my response would be, let's say, hedged.

    Thus, I appreciate ChicageHeel's admission re the flaws in Barnes's personality, and think his post properly raises the delicate issue of whether some of the criticism is unbecoming. I suspect the essential element to the argument that we should ease up a bit on a someone so young is complicated by the fact that Barnes has for several years sought, consciously and itself in something of an off-putting way, to present himself as unusually mature and cerebral.

    Having myself had some experience with college students, every once in awhile I was faced with someone like Barnes: a young person who clearly had wowed the adults in his life, including teachers and administrators in high school, but who was her/his [usually his] own worst enemy. HB's very unfortunate announcement statement....

    "The school that I choose to be my alma mater, indeed, the place where I will leave my legacy, had the right balance of both academics and basketball that which I thought I could achieve the goals I wanted to pursue. Today, I'm proud to announce the school I will attend in the fall of 2010 will be the coach I'm going to Skype...."

    .... just makes me cringe. It's so overwrought with drama and faux-sophistication that it reads like ... what it is: Harrison's [with or without incompetent PR-help] ego out of control, in words and sort-of-but-not-quite-sentences that don't parse. The syntax is disastrous. The most obvious example is the juxtaposition of the words, "that which." Those words do occasionally parse - as in "I hope Duke does that which leads to exciting, winning basketball." But in Harrison's purple prose, "that" and "which" are redundant, and screw up the rest of the sentence, to boot. That is, even if he had dropped either "that" or "which," the sentence still wouldn't parse. Not even close.

    Why berate him for this? [Actually, I hope I'm berating someone who "helped" him write this stuff.] To highlight the fact that Barnes had up to that point in his undoubtedly strong academic life never been given some good advice; or if given it, hadn't accepted it. The advice would have been to tell him that if you're going so consciously and deliberately to present yourself as special, seeking a "legacy," for heaven's sake, you're going to come across to some nice adults as an insufferable snob, and probably not too far down the road. Maybe - depending on Barnes's humility - this: "Harrison, you know I love you, so I'm going to tell you the truth, and you better listen. Your admirable confidence is perilously close to off-putting overconfidence. You really - wake up, now, Harrison, really - need to pay attention to this issue, and observe adults who cross that line, so as to know how to avoid it."

    In my own contact with a few such students, precocious to an extent that it was not only irritating but harmful to the young person's own personality and character development, I myself sometimes struggled. It wasn't easy to "confront" a confident young person with so many strengths but a glaring weakness. Sometimes I did it and it worked. Other times, it was no go. In a couple of cases, it just felt so awkward that I didn't even try. In such an extreme case as that of Barnes, I'd really like to know whether any adult had ever counseled him to cool it. The ego-momentum of Harrison Barnes would not have been easy to derail.

    I intend here more to empathize with than to blame Barnes's adult advisers and confidants. Heaven knows he's in so many ways an admirable young man. But - and this is obvious - not in all ways. And I do wonder whether he will ever understand that. It would - will - take a trusted, sensible, sensitive, and courageous adult to challenge Harrison's understanding of his place in the world.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Well, in a comparison with Dawkins (who is the guy I assume you're implying), Barnes is a better rebounder, better defender, and has a more diverse offensive skillset. He'd be a substantial upgrade at the 3 this year.
    Well one has contributed to two ACC championships and a National Championship. The other is Harrison Barnes.
    Last edited by Kdogg; 03-27-2012 at 06:58 PM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kdogg View Post
    Well one has contributed to two ACC championships and a National Championship. The other is Harrison Barnes.
    Sure, therefore Jordan Davidson is better than Harrison Barnes.

    We sure coulda used a great small forward this year.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by duke09hms View Post
    Sure, therefore Jordan Davidson is better than Harrison Barnes.

    We sure coulda used a great small forward this year.
    Or, failing that, Duke would have settled for Harrison Barnes.

  14. #74
    It's pretty silly to say "Oh, Barnes only improved and/or played well because of Marshall."

    First, one could easily say that Barnes was hindered in the absence of a good PG, and only began to tap his potential when he had legitimate D-I players running the point. After all, in those pre- and post-Marshall games, the entire team had an albatross hanging around its neck (Larry WithDrew) and then a 1-star backup freshman guard. The offense was clearly suboptimal in both instances.

    Second, regardless of the first point, what is Barnes more likely to see as a PG teammate in the NBA? Someone similar to Marshall, or someone similar to Drew/White? Since it's clearly the former, I don't see how one should discount Barnes' play in any way because he "only played well when he had a good PG"...because he's going to play with a similarly good PG every night if/when he goes to the NBA.

    Third, I just think people are putting too much focus on how Barnes played in the last two games. He shot 44% for the season, and he basically hit a little shooting slump at the end. But shooters have slumps. Curry was shooting like 22% for parts of January/February. Redick was 3-18 against LSU in his final game. It happens, especially against good perimeter-defensive teams like Ohio.

    Barnes is a very good player, especially considering he's just a sophomore. His personality is fully deserving of ridicule, but let's not go overboard in downplaying his game by crediting someone else for his positives. He is still a good NBA prospect and will get drafted in the lottery if he decides to leave now.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by gumbomoop View Post
    I intend here more to empathize with than to blame Barnes's adult advisers and confidants. Heaven knows he's in so many ways an admirable young man. But - and this is obvious - not in all ways. And I do wonder whether he will ever understand that. It would - will - take a trusted, sensible, sensitive, and courageous adult to challenge Harrison's understanding of his place in the world.
    Very interesting observations.

    He was in need of the counsel of a "trusted, sensible, sensitive, and courageous adult"?
    Not many fit that bill. One who certainly could have was Mike Krzyzewski.
    I wonder if Harrison understands that irony.

  16. #76
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    Mar 2007
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    Mount Kisco, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. synellinden View Post
    What other basketball phenom would think himself into a pretzel and decide that the best way to promote Harrison Barnes, the brand, would be to talk about Harrison Barnes, the brand? Especially when every other super-athlete who talked openly about brands has been met with the public's wrath? Derrick Rose, the antimatter to the brand-building NBA, just signed a $200 million shoe contract. Hasn't it become clear that the way to really build your brand is to breathe basketball, win championships[/B]
    THIS!

    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    Here is another interesting quote from Barnes in the Atlantic article (I would suggest reading that article to see the quotes from Barnes himself). Reading the below quote, you have to wonder how much this years Final Four location (exactly 30 years after his namesake's "shot) factored into his decision to return as a Sophomore.

    Barnes quote in parenthesis
    “There’s no better exposure and no better way of getting the hype machine going than UNC returning back to New Orleans, 30 years after Michael Jordan, of all people, won it there,” Barnes told me. For the first and only time, he dropped his cautious analysis and let his excitement show. “It would be an unbelievable stage,” he said, breaking into a wide smile. “And if we end up winning a national championship there? The media might just explode.” And so, ultimately, would Barnes’s bank account.
    THIS!

    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    That was actually Jeff Goodman. Goodman wrote an article on it. Barnes called him out of the blue in January, and asked him 3 questions:
    1. Did I think he still had a shot of being an All-American?

    2. Did he still have a chance of being the national Player of the Year?

    3. Most important, did I think the North Carolina Tar Heels could cut down the nets?

    Link:http://http://msn.foxsports.com/coll...arolina-041811
    THIS!

    Quote Originally Posted by moonpie23;566341Z
    what now pigeon?
    AND THIS!

    Maybe it's because I watched that Skype fiasco, but this kid gets under my skin like no other Tar Heel. He is such a tool. You know what I think it is? His annoying characteristics such as buying into his own hype, being more style than substance, having a huge a sense of entitlement and, ultimately, his pretty boy lameness reminds me of the most annoying people I knew at Duke! Thank god he didn't go to Duke.
    Last edited by blazindw; 03-28-2012 at 08:39 AM. Reason: edit quote tag per poster's request

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by gumbomoop View Post
    I intend here more to empathize with than to blame Barnes's adult advisers and confidants. Heaven knows he's in so many ways an admirable young man. But - and this is obvious - not in all ways. And I do wonder whether he will ever understand that. It would - will - take a trusted, sensible, sensitive, and courageous adult to challenge Harrison's understanding of his place in the world.
    I have had a lot of experience with younger kids (ages 7-12) and a fair amount with teenagers. It is my experience that it is much easier to address these types of ego issues before they hit high school. Truthfully it is something that the parents should be addressing as early as elementary school. It is never too early to teach humility which should never be confused with sportsmanship, the two don't always overlap.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by yancem View Post
    It is never too early to teach humility
    draft day, and the training camp......
    "Either we're going down, or they are....... Kirk out!"

  19. #79
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    Boca Grande Florida
    HB has done nothing that I have seen to deserve all the negativity people seem to enjoy tossing his way. From all sides.

    I've listened, or read, almost all his press comments for the past two years and he has always handled himself in a very mature manner. He's been straightforward, praised his teammates, and the competition. Nothing he has said has been controversial, that I've seen. His teammates all seem to enjoy playing with him. He's been a good student and representative for his school. He has preformed a a very high level on the court, even if he hasn't met others standards, or even his own.

    What I see from some fans is very unbecoming. From one side there's a lot of envy, jealousy and resentment. From the other, a lot unrealistic expectations, simple greed.

    Why not just let the amateur psychological, analytical BS go and let HB just be HB.

    I say lets just let him find his way, he's still a young adult, and enjoy,(or not if he's playing against your team)...watching him play basketball.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    HB has done nothing that I have seen to deserve all the negativity people seem to enjoy tossing his way. From all sides.

    I've listened, or read, almost all his press comments for the past two years and he has always handled himself in a very mature manner. He's been straightforward, praised his teammates, and the competition. Nothing he has said has been controversial, that I've seen. His teammates all seem to enjoy playing with him. He's been a good student and representative for his school. He has preformed a a very high level on the court, even if he hasn't met others standards, or even his own.

    What I see from some fans is very unbecoming. From one side there's a lot of envy, jealousy and resentment. From the other, a lot unrealistic expectations, simple greed.

    Why not just let the amateur psychological, analytical BS go and let HB just be HB.

    I say lets just let him find his way, he's still a young adult, and enjoy,(or not if he's playing against your team)...watching him play basketball.
    Very true. A lot of us are just bitter he chose UNC over Duke.
    That the kid is a great small forward who played senior Kyle Singler to a draw as a freshman and would have filled a glaring need on this year's team only serves to annoy us even more.

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