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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupaDave View Post
    The problem that comes in is that it's pretty hard to think of an ACC player that Barnes compares to hype wise b/c those guys were pretty good and cut their teeth for many years developing their games.

    Most of the guys that have gotten the hype throughout the years have been stone cold killers. That's one of the reasons I could never understand why they chose to promote Barnes and not Zeller or Marshall. It's like they kept promoting this "what if?" factor almost. Like "tonight will be the night Barnes goes crazy!". It rarely happened.

    I mean this IS a guy that's about to go in the first round of the draft based on SOMETHING. He's not chopped liver but I think that's more a statement of the quality of player in the NBA now... In 1990 Barnes would have done some damage (well maybe, what they lacked in athleticism they more than made up for in physicality).
    To be fair, there are some Duke players who didn't live up to the hype or accolades they received as prep players.
    Chris Burgess, Ricky Price, and Shavlik Randolph come to mind. Circumstances differ, but I think it's fair to say we, as fans, expected more from those guys.
    It's not particularly fair to trash guys for failing to live up to someone else's expectations, but it happens often in sports. They wanted to succeed and tried, but didn't become stars.

    One factor in taking shots at Barnes is that, in his case, he really did help create the hype and expectations.
    At this point, I'm mostly just curious as to how he will do in the NBA; conceivably, he could end up as a bench player or a star, really don't know.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post

    Frankly, I see Barnes as a somewhat better Danny Green, who surprisingly--to me, at least--has turned into a decent NBA player. Danny Granger-lite?

    BTW, the wine-and-cheese game was in 1992, FSU's first season in the ACC.
    I will have to disagree here, Jim.

    To me, Sr. Danny Green was a better overall player than I saw as a soph from HB. But to be fair, we also should remember HB is a substantially bigger player than Green if we want to compare their games.

    The step back jumper is a deadly shot that HB can get off almost at will. He didn't really look to shoot it as much as he could have in the UNC system this year, but I suspect that a lot of his NBA value is based on the potential of that shot.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by roywhite View Post
    One factor in taking shots at Barnes is that, in his case, he really did help create the hype and expectations.
    At this point, I'm mostly just curious as to how he will do in the NBA; conceivably, he could end up as a bench player or a star, really don't know.

    All the top HS kids are playing the hype game these days. They are stars whether we think they should be or not. Heck, Noel just led everyone on at Georgetown and announced for UK with his haircut, for crying out loud....

    I have the same curiousity about HB's hoops future as you do. I really don't have a feel for him as a player even after two years.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    All the top HS kids are playing the hype game these days. They are stars whether we think they should be or not. Heck, Noel just led everyone on at Georgetown and announced for UK with his haircut, for crying out loud....

    I have the same curiousity about HB's hoops future as you do. I really don't have a feel for him as a player even after two years.
    True the trend is pointed that way. Style over substance and all that. But you have to admit that Harrison Barnes embraced it a little more enthusiastically than most.

    Also, the media has looked foolish with its coverage of HB. First they vote him to AA status before he even plays a game. Then as if they have to justify their mistake, they keep pumping him up even after it becomes clear that he is not going to reach the unreachable standards they set for him.

    I cannot tell you how many times I heard various TV announcers talk about Barnes when he was being mediocre on the floor. Meanwhile, Tyler Zeller is busting his bottom and carrying the team. In one game, I forget which one, at the end of the half, Barnes gets two garbage type baskets to either extend a small UNC lead or cut a small deficeit. I believe at the time those two baskets gave Barnes 8 points for the half, while Zeller had 16 or so. Anyway, as the game goes into the half, the announcers say something like "Barnes is heating up and keeping UNC in the game". I paraphrase, but that was the jest of it. I wanted to throw up. He had done nothing all half but stand around and then gets a couple of junk baskets by just being where the ball bounced, and all of a sudden he is the reason UNC is still in the game....

    Barnes didn't help the situation with his mannerism either. He was so "scripted" on and off the court. I always had the feeling that if you could get him to exhale and just play the game without thinking how he would look or whatever was going on in his head, he would be amazing... it just never happened for more than a few minutes at a time.

    Maybe he will loosen up as he matures, but maybe he won't. I would not bet on him at this point. I think he is an average to below average NBA player who bounces around for several years based on his "potential" until he passes that age where potential becomes failure to improve.... I think he will be sucessful financially because he seems smart enough to invest and not blow his money, but I do not see many endorsements or all star games in his future. I may be totally wrong btw.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by oldnavy View Post
    I cannot tell you how many times I heard various TV announcers talk about Barnes when he was being mediocre on the floor. Meanwhile, Tyler Zeller is busting his bottom and carrying the team. In one game, I forget which one, at the end of the half, Barnes gets two garbage type baskets to either extend a small UNC lead or cut a small deficeit. I believe at the time those two baskets gave Barnes 8 points for the half, while Zeller had 16 or so. Anyway, as the game goes into the half, the announcers say something like "Barnes is heating up and keeping UNC in the game". I paraphrase, but that was the jest of it.
    The announcers were joking, then, trying to cope with Barnes's strange lethargy in the only way they knew how, with sarcasm.

    Possibly.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by gumbomoop View Post
    The announcers were joking, then, trying to cope with Barnes's strange lethargy in the only way they knew how, with sarcasm.

    Possibly.
    It was a joke, but I don't believe it was intentional.... I really meant to say "gist"..... english is my second language... I don't have a primary one!

  7. #247
    I've imported this from the "Roy's Greatest Hits" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by gethlives View Post
    I get that Duke fans are bitter about the way that Barnes chose his school but any rational fan has to admit that the kid played well for Carolina even if you think he ended up not being what some might have hoped.
    Had Barnes chosen to come to Duke, and had he played roughly the same as how he played at UNC, I think [but obviously cannot know for sure] that I'd have posted the same sort of comments that in fact I did, intermittently, re his game. Namely, sweet shooter, good defender on the occasions he tried to be, strangely unwilling to crash the boards, mediocre handle that was his biggest, and such an obvious, flaw. Undoubtedly I'd have gushed over his shot, and would have been hopeful that he'd improve his handle, so he could be near-unstoppable. I'd have praised his desire to take the last shot in tight games. I'd have accentuated the positive, of which there was just enough to imagine, "He's getting there, he can still be great."

    More difficult to make an honest guess as to how I [and others] would have dealt with his self-obsessing persona. Some very embarrassing cringe-factors: Black Falcon, "I'm That Guy," phone calls to Goodman his frosh year seeking reassurance he could still be NPOY, occasional petulant behavior on the court, branding.

    No way of knowing for sure whether Barnes would have behaved, as a Blue Devil, the way he behaved as a Heel. But absent a change in the direction of humility [his, and mine, too, now I think about it], my semi-honest guess is that I would have been embarrassed for him, and might - might - delicately have admitted some discomfort about such things. But I might simply have pulled the covers over my head. I might have tried to excuse his behavior.

    Just as Carolina fans are surely relieved that Kyrie wasn't able to lead the Devils to the NC, so Duke fans, with some justification - surely this is obvious - are happy the way things worked out for Barnes.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by gumbomoop View Post
    I've imported this from the "Roy's Greatest Hits" thread.



    Had Barnes chosen to come to Duke, and had he played roughly the same as how he played at UNC, I think [but obviously cannot know for sure] that I'd have posted the same sort of comments that in fact I did, intermittently, re his game. Namely, sweet shooter, good defender on the occasions he tried to be, strangely unwilling to crash the boards, mediocre handle that was his biggest, and such an obvious, flaw. Undoubtedly I'd have gushed over his shot, and would have been hopeful that he'd improve his handle, so he could be near-unstoppable. I'd have praised his desire to take the last shot in tight games. I'd have accentuated the positive, of which there was just enough to imagine, "He's getting there, he can still be great."

    More difficult to make an honest guess as to how I [and others] would have dealt with his self-obsessing persona. Some very embarrassing cringe-factors: Black Falcon, "I'm That Guy," phone calls to Goodman his frosh year seeking reassurance he could still be NPOY, occasional petulant behavior on the court, branding.

    No way of knowing for sure whether Barnes would have behaved, as a Blue Devil, the way he behaved as a Heel. But absent a change in the direction of humility [his, and mine, too, now I think about it], my semi-honest guess is that I would have been embarrassed for him, and might - might - delicately have admitted some discomfort about such things. But I might simply have pulled the covers over my head. I might have tried to excuse his behavior.

    Just as Carolina fans are surely relieved that Kyrie wasn't able to lead the Devils to the NC, so Duke fans, with some justification - surely this is obvious - are happy the way things worked out for Barnes.
    Every time I hear Barnes and Brand I am reminded that SPAM is a brand also.... just saying.

  9. #249
    For all his talk about leaving a legacy at Carolina, I wonder where he ranks among the greatest UNC players of all time. Is he even top 30? How about among early-entry UNC guys? Does he make top 10?

    I'm actually very curious about where UNC fans, or anyone with more knowledge about UNC basketball history than I, would rank him.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by wk2109 View Post
    For all his talk about leaving a legacy at Carolina, I wonder where he ranks among the greatest UNC players of all time. Is he even top 30? How about among early-entry UNC guys? Does he make top 10?

    I'm actually very curious about where UNC fans, or anyone with more knowledge about UNC basketball history than I, would rank him.
    Top 50, maybe. And even that's a stretch.

  11. #251
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    Ok, ok. We're just piling on now really. Let's wait for the draft where we can actually discuss the guy in real terms. Let's keep the press we give him to a minimum.

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupaDave View Post
    Ok, ok. We're just piling on now really. Let's wait for the draft where we can actually discuss the guy in real terms. Let's keep the press we give him to a minimum.
    high draft pick doesn't vanquish the criticism.........let's see how he's doing half way thru the 12-13 season......
    "Either we're going down, or they are....... Kirk out!"

  13. #253
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    I'm comfortable judging Barnes as a college player and ignoring his NBA future, for now. And his college career is, by any realistic definition, a disappointment when judged against both his media hype and his self-hype. He was, in his time at Chapel Hill, a good small forward. For parts of games he was dominant, but rarely for a whole game or for a stretch of games. He was never close to being the best player on his own team. In fact for the bulk of his career, he was the fourth best player on his team (although that is fourth behind three very, very good players in Zeller, Henson, and Marshall).

    For a kid who came to Chapel Hill touted as a preseason NPOY/All-American (not his fault, that was media hype), and who talked about leaving his legacy there (that's all on him), he leaves UNC as a borderline first team All-ACC player, and his legacy is a couple of good, but not spectacular seasons both for himself and his team.

    He may go on to become a stellar NBA player, but that will not change his "legacy" at UNC. If he disappoints in the NBA, people will point to his time at UNC as an early indicator that he wasn't the player he appeared to be in Iowa. If he has a solid but unspectacular NBA career, people will look at his time at UNC as about par for the player he went on to be come in the NBA. If he becomes a perennial All-Star, people will wonder what happened to him at UNC, why he struggled between such a stellar high school career and a stellar NBA career.

    Obviously, in that case, the problem will have been Roy.
    Brian Zoubek on what was going through his mind walking to the free throw line with 3.6 seconds remaining in the 2010 National Championship game and Duke up by 1: "Fifty percent [of me is] thinking, This is what I've been dreaming of doing my entire life. Fifty percent I'm crapping my pants."

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by davekay1971 View Post
    I'm comfortable judging Barnes as a college player and ignoring his NBA future, for now. And his college career is, by any realistic definition, a disappointment when judged against both his media hype and his self-hype. He was, in his time at Chapel Hill, a good small forward. For parts of games he was dominant, but rarely for a whole game or for a stretch of games. He was never close to being the best player on his own team. In fact for the bulk of his career, he was the fourth best player on his team (although that is fourth behind three very, very good players in Zeller, Henson, and Marshall).

    For a kid who came to Chapel Hill touted as a preseason NPOY/All-American (not his fault, that was media hype), and who talked about leaving his legacy there (that's all on him), he leaves UNC as a borderline first team All-ACC player, and his legacy is a couple of good, but not spectacular seasons both for himself and his team.

    He may go on to become a stellar NBA player, but that will not change his "legacy" at UNC. If he disappoints in the NBA, people will point to his time at UNC as an early indicator that he wasn't the player he appeared to be in Iowa. If he has a solid but unspectacular NBA career, people will look at his time at UNC as about par for the player he went on to be come in the NBA. If he becomes a perennial All-Star, people will wonder what happened to him at UNC, why he struggled between such a stellar high school career and a stellar NBA career.

    Obviously, in that case, the problem will have been Roy.
    A great summary in my opinion. What else needs to be said?

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by SupaDave View Post
    A great summary in my opinion. What else needs to be said?
    Although I agree that davekay1971's post is excellent, I'm going to ignore this hint that we stop trying to figure out what happened with Barnes. I do not agree ....

    Quote Originally Posted by SupaDave View Post
    We're just piling on now really.
    .... that all further commentary on Barnes constitutes piling on. It depends on the commentary.

    Take, for example, this interesting debate - imported from the "Roy's Greatest Hits" thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by gethlives View Post
    .... don't you think it's possible for someone to work hard and not show improvement?
    Quote Originally Posted by oldnavy View Post
    If he spent hours and hour working on his handle, then he wasted his time. If he spent hours and hours on driving to the lane, he wasted his time. If he spent hours and hours on passing the ball, he wasted his time, if he spent hours and hours on rebounding he wasted his time...
    IMO, it's possible that both gethlives and oldnavy are onto something. But exactly what they're onto - in obviously different ways - has something to do with Newton_14's observation:

    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    One of the more mysterious players to come along in this era.
    Barnes is a mystery. I do believe he worked hard to improve. In some, maybe mysterious, way, he was "driven." Although oldnavy's blunt language about "wasting his time" packs a powerful verbal punch, I don't think it's literally, as opposed to rhetorically, true. That is, I wouldn't go so far as to say Barnes didn't improve at all, and might even discourage gethlives from conceding as much ["not show improvement"].

    Let's agree that it's almost certain that Barnes was, in his own [I think deliberately] mysterious way, driven. He wanted to be known as being driven, yes? He worked on several aspects of his game. By the eye test - at least mine - he was a better player at the end of his college career than at the beginning, so not all his efforts were "wasted." But the improvement didn't strike me as substantial. Barnes himself made it known that he would spend the summer of 2011 working on his handle. Yet in his sophomore year, he was only marginally better in that crucial skill. I don't know how many times I heard Jay Bilas and Jimmy Dykes [and others] say this past season that Barnes was good for only one or two dribbles before he had to shoot. That is, his handle was still a noticeable weakness.

    Similarly, commentators wondered aloud why Barnes wasn't an aggressive rebounder, nor generally an aggressive player, period. At some point this past season one heard the occasional explicit, and more than occasional implicit, contrast of Michael Kidd-Gilchrist's fierceness with Barnes's passivity. Why did such a "driven" player show so little "drive"? For that matter, why didn't he drive to the basket? Something of a mystery, to be sure.

    Here's my speculation, admittedly incomplete, even as speculation. Barnes was, surprisingly, overshadowed by several unanticipated developments: [1] Zeller's admirable emergence as a consistent, dependable offensive force. [2] Henson's - also surprising, to me, at least - improvement on O. Henson developed more moves than did Barnes. Think about that. Henson had a pretty varied set of moves; Barnes didn't, or at least didn't show it. [3] Marshall's brilliance both as a long-passer and half-court distributor of delicately spun, and perfectly paced and placed, entry passes.

    Barnes became a good weapon, but not usually a first choice weapon. I guess there were times when he became a go-to guy, but he sure wasn't the regular go-to guy. Would we have seen more of Barnes's improvement had we seen more of Barnes? His sweet jumper was so fluid, but why depend overmuch on that when Marshall could get Zeller some pretty easy shots? Why depend on that when Marshall could find Zeller, Henson, and others for over-the-top lay-ins? Did Barnes get many of those passes? I can't remember. But I can remember Zeller and Henson loping toward the other end for a sure 2. I can't remember Barnes; I can remember Zeller, and Henson, and Marshall.

    Barnes didn't disappear, but he wasn't the focal point he was expected to be, not least by himself. Is it possible that Barnes, who seems to have been so happy when Marshall replaced Drew, was negatively affected - in terms of his own development-by-in-game-repititions - by Marshall's meteoric rise as the engine that drove the Heels? A version of "hoist by his own petard"?

    Marshall became the driver. The "driven" Harrison Barnes wound up, most of the time, being driven around the court by Kendall Marshall. Thus, when Marshall went down, Barnes was, ironically, less prepared to drive the team than was Stilman White.
    Last edited by gumbomoop; 04-28-2012 at 01:27 AM.

  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by gumbomoop View Post
    Although I agree that davekay1971's post is excellent, I'm goingddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd to ignore this hint that we stop trying to figure out what happened with Barnes. I do not agree ....



    .... that all further commentary on Barnes constitutes piling on. It depends on the commentary.

    Take, for example, this interesting debate - imported from the "Roy's Greatest Hits" thread:





    IMO, it's possible that both gethlives and oldnavy are onto something. But exactly what they're onto - in obviously different ways - has something to do with Newton_14's observation:



    Barnes is a mystery. I do believe he worked hard to improve. In some, maybe mysterious, way, he was "driven." Although oldnavy's blunt language about "wasting his time" packs a powerful verbal punch, I don't think it's literally, as opposed to rhetorically, true. That is, I wouldn't go so far as to say Barnes didn't improve at all, and might even discourage gethlives from conceding as much ["not show improvement"].

    Let's agree that it's almost certain that Barnes was, in his own [I think deliberately] mysterious way, driven. He wanted to be known as being driven, yes? He worked on several aspects of his game. By the eye test - at least mine - he was a better player at the end of his college career than at the beginning, so not all his efforts were "wasted." But the improvement didn't strike me as substantial. Barnes himself made it known that he would spend the summer of 2011 working on his handle. Yet in his sophomore year, he was only marginally better in that crucial skill. I don't know how many times I heard Jay Bilas and Jimmy Dykes [and others] say this past season that Barnes was good for only one or two dribbles before he had to shoot. That is, his handle was still a noticeable weakness.

    Similarly, commentators wondered aloud why Barnes wasn't an aggressive rebounder, nor generally an aggressive player, period. At some point this past season one heard the occasional explicit, and more than occasional implicit, contrast of Michael Kidd-Gilchrist's fierceness with Barnes's passivity. Why did such a "driven" player show so little "drive"? For that matter, why didn't he drive to the basket? Something of a mystery, to be sure.

    Here's my speculation, admittedly incomplete, even as speculation. Barnes was, surprisingly, overshadowed by several unanticipated developments: [1] Zeller's admirable emergence as a consistent, dependable offensive force. [2] Henson's - also surprising, to me, at least - improvement on O. Henson developed more moves than did Barnes. Think about that. Henson had a pretty varied set of moves; Barnes didn't, or at least didn't show it. [3] Marshall's brilliance both as a long-passer and half-court distributor of delicately spun, and perfectly paced and placed, entry passes.

    Barnes became a good weapon, but not usually a first choice weapon. I guess there were times when he became a go-to guy, but he sure wasn't the regular go-to guy. Would we have seen more of Barnes's improvement had we seen more of Barnes? His sweet jumper was so fluid, but why depend overmuch on that when Marshall could get Zeller some pretty easy shots? Why depend on that when Marshall could find Zeller, Henson, and others for over-the-top lay-ins? Did Barnes get many of those passes? I can't remember. But I can remember Zeller and Henson loping toward the other end for a sure 2. I can't remember Barnes; I can remember Zeller, and Henson, and Marshall.

    Barnes didn't disappear, but he wasn't the focal point he was expected to be, not least by himself. Is it possible that Barnes, who seems to have been so happy when Marshall replaced Drew, was negatively affected - in terms of his own development-by-in-game-repititions - by Marshall's meteoric rise as the engine that drove the Heels? A version of "hoist by his own petard"?

    Marshall became the driver. The "driven" Harrison Barnes wound up, most of the time, being driven around the court by Kendall Marshall. Thus, when Marshall went down, Barnes was, ironically, less prepared to drive the team than was Stilman White.
    True, Branes became much more of a passenger than a driver on this team. IF and this is a big IF he worked as hard as we were lead to believe by the hype machine coming from UNC he was not as talented as advertised, I think that if Barnes had come in and had a normal freshman year without the over blown hype machine he would have had a good season and expectations would have been more normalized for him, and things would have been muh more normal for him. As it is I think he was a disapointment and will be largely forgotten by fans in short order.


    There is always the chance that he can explode at the next level, but count me out as a bieveer at this point.
    Last edited by oldnavy; 04-28-2012 at 07:15 AM.

  17. #257
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    IM{H}O Barnes tried to assume the mantle of the next Jordan by declaration instead of production. Michael Jordan got to be THE Michael Jordan by winning championships, lots of them. Barnes, at this point is just a pretender, literally, he's pretending to be MJ.

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by camion View Post
    IM{H}O Barnes tried to assume the mantle of the next Jordan by declaration instead of production. Michael Jordan got to be THE Michael Jordan by winning championships, lots of them. Barnes, at this point is just a pretender, literally, he's pretending to be MJ.
    we have a name for those people in my business.....they're called "WANNABE's"
    "Either we're going down, or they are....... Kirk out!"

  19. #259
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    There's a lot of questionable material in this piece, but I thought it was interesting and also pretty hilarious that the writer felt the following was within the realm of possibility:

    9. Reggie Bullock, UNC

    Who he is: An athletic 6'7, 205-pound sophomore shooting guard who recovered from a knee injury as a freshman to fill in for Dexter Strickland last year. He has the length, athleticism and outside shot (38 percent from deep) to be an NBA role player, but he rarely got the chance to be a featured offensive player in his first two seasons in Chapel Hill.

    What he needs to improve: With the Tar Heels exodus of talent, Bullock will have the chance to be a featured player next year. He was a five-star prospect coming out of high school, so he should have the talent to be a front-line ACC shooting guard next season. He could end up as a better NBA player than Harrison Barnes.
    I wonder what makes him feel that way, seeing as it certainly wasn't Bullock's performance this season (8.8 ppg, 5.1 rpg). Nevertheless, it does show how far the expectations have fallen. Can you imagine someone proposing that the summer before HB's freshman year?

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jderf View Post
    There's a lot of questionable material in this piece, but I thought it was interesting and also pretty hilarious that the writer felt the following was within the realm of possibility:

    9. Reggie Bullock, UNC

    Who he is: An athletic 6'7, 205-pound sophomore shooting guard who recovered from a knee injury as a freshman to fill in for Dexter Strickland last year. He has the length, athleticism and outside shot (38 percent from deep) to be an NBA role player, but he rarely got the chance to be a featured offensive player in his first two seasons in Chapel Hill.

    What he needs to improve: With the Tar Heels exodus of talent, Bullock will have the chance to be a featured player next year. He was a five-star prospect coming out of high school, so he should have the talent to be a front-line ACC shooting guard next season. He could end up as a better NBA player than Harrison Barnes.
    I wonder what makes him feel that way, seeing as it certainly wasn't Bullock's performance this season (8.8 ppg, 5.1 rpg). Nevertheless, it does show how far the expectations have fallen. Can you imagine someone proposing that the summer before HB's freshman year?
    I think the bolded portion was mistyped, the author meant:

    He could end up as a[n] NBA player, [thus] better than Harrison Barnes

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