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  1. #41

    To be fair

    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    That was actually Jeff Goodman. Goodman wrote an article on it. Barnes called him out of the blue in January, and asked him 3 questions:
    1. Did I think he still had a shot of being an All-American?

    2. Did he still have a chance of being the national Player of the Year?

    3. Most important, did I think the North Carolina Tar Heels could cut down the nets?

    Link:http://http://msn.foxsports.com/coll...arolina-041811
    The call took place on New Year's Day 2011, and for all we know Barnes was hung over and confused. Goodman clearly had his wits about him and answered the three questions with no, no, and no. The only doubt I have is why he called Barnes cerebral after such a call. I would have called him a dumbutt.

    But there is another interesting part of the article which shows what a difference a year makes:

    "All five starters are back, plus they will have a healthy Reggie Bullock and add one of the top freshman in the nation, forward James McAdoo.

    But Barnes is the difference maker. At least he was down the stretch last season, putting up 40 points against Clemson in the Atlantic Coast Conference tournament and averaging 21 points per game in the NCAA tournament a run that ended with a close loss to Kentucky in the Elite Eight."

    http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebask...arolina-041811

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by miramar View Post
    The call took place on New Year's Day 2011, and for all we know Barnes was hung over and confused. Goodman clearly had his wits about him and answered the three questions with no, no, and no. The only doubt I have is why he called Barnes cerebral after such a call. I would have called him a dumbutt.

    But there is another interesting part of the article which shows what a difference a year makes:

    "All five starters are back, plus they will have a healthy Reggie Bullock and add one of the top freshman in the nation, forward James McAdoo.

    But Barnes is the difference maker. At least he was down the stretch last season, putting up 40 points against Clemson in the Atlantic Coast Conference tournament and averaging 21 points per game in the NCAA tournament a run that ended with a close loss to Kentucky in the Elite Eight."

    http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebask...arolina-041811
    It's possible that it was a drunk dial, but all of his other notable quotes seem to suggest that he's really wrapped up in creating his legacy. This call would suggest the same as well. It all sort of ties nicely together (admittedly from an outside perspective).

    It's really interesting that he's crafted this image of "cerebral player" and superstar when neither really seems applicable. He hasn't really developed his game (he was the same player last year once Marshall took over). He doesn't seem to make smart player plays, he isn't some academic phenom like Zeller, and he hasn't developed into a great closer.

    Someone wrote that it is strange that he seems so obsessed with creating a legacy rather than becoming a great basketball player. Jordan had no legacy until he dominated. Same for Kobe. Very few players get legacies/brands without some cache behind it, and right now Barnes' cache is that he was a highly-touted recruit who talked about himself in a long-term perspective (which made him seem mature and wise).

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by davekay1971 View Post
    I noted in my post that Marshall becoming point guard was at least partly responsible for Barnes' improvement.
    And I'm merely providing evidence to suggest that Marshall is perhaps almost entirely responsible for Barnes' improvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by davekay1971 View Post
    It's also kind of unfair to compare the stats of part of a season against the stats of an entire season. Was Barnes's sophomore season better than his freshman season? Absolutely. Of course, his sophomore season was played almost entirely with Marshall at the point, and that accounts for at least some of the improvement. But it's pretty tough to say that Barnes, himself, has made no improvement whatsoever.
    I think it's completely fair to compare stats of part of a season against stats of an entire season when that part of a season involved such a dramatic change in personnel. I was suggesting a systematic change that has affected Barnes' production, so I presented the two time periods that included this change.

    Since Marshall took over the point, Harrison Barnes has been a 1st Team/2nd Team All-ACC caliber player. Prior to that, Barnes struggled. Had Marshall been the PG from the get-go, I have little doubt that Barnes would have been at least 2nd Team All-ACC as a freshman (probably 1st Team).

    Quote Originally Posted by davekay1971 View Post
    We tend to really be harsh on Barnes, myself included. He's an easy target. He's a kid who clearly bought into his HS hype, who has delusions that he is destined to be the next big thing, who plays for the wrong team, and who is, to this point, nowhere near his self-hype or media-hype. Taking a step back, however, he's also a kid who's a legitimate first or second team All-ACC player in his sophomore year.
    And as I said above, he has been a 1st/2nd Team All-ACC player from the moment Marshall took over the PG spot. I've seen nothing in his game this year that he didn't have last year. He was a great shooter last year (once Marshall took over) but had limited ballhandling skills. This year, it's the same thing. Becoming 1st Team All-ACC (an honor that I think should have gone to Marshall over Barnes, by the way) or 2nd Team All-ACC was merely a reflection of playing well for the whole season (which as you noted involved having Marshall set him up for an entire season rather than half a season).

    Quote Originally Posted by davekay1971 View Post
    Here's another way of looking at this: as Duke fans, do we want him to come back to UNC next season or not? Do we perceive UNC as being a more formidable opponent next season with Barnes starting for the Heels or in the NBA? If Barnes is really an limited player with a stagnant game, I guess we should hope he comes back for his junior year so he can take up a spot in Roy's rotation. As far as I'm concerned, I hope he goes to the NBA. I'd rather face UNC next season without him than with him.
    I agree. Of course, I would have said the same thing after last season as well. That's not evidence that he's improved as a player. That's just evidence that he's a very good player, and that he's better than UNC's alternatives at his position.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by yancem View Post
    I agree that I would like to see him go pro but if I'm looking at the UNC's roster and thinking who I most want to go pro, it isn't him. I'd rather see Marshall go because he's the engine that makes the team run, McAdoo because I think that he will be a monster next year and Henson because I think he is just a nasty match up problem.
    Yeah, but if the other guys go pro (especially Marshall), Barnes would have almost no choice but to join them, because without a top-flight PG feeding him, Barnes's stock would most likely drop in a rebuilding situation.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Yeah, but if the other guys go pro (especially Marshall), Barnes would have almost no choice but to join them, because without a top-flight PG feeding him, Barnes's stock would most likely drop in a rebuilding situation.
    Unless he actually decides to make dramatic improvements in his game this offseason. It's possible that he could really expand his skillset and showcase it with the other guys gone. Not likely, but possible.

    I'd be just fine if Marshall and Henson left and Barnes and McAdoo returned. UNC would be a lot less scary to me in that situation, because it would put a lot of pressure on those two guys (and Strickland and McDonald) to realize their potential.

  6. #46

    Another perspective on "should he stay or should he go?"

    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Unless he actually decides to make dramatic improvements in his game this offseason. It's possible that he could really expand his skillset and showcase it with the other guys gone. Not likely, but possible.

    I'd be just fine if Marshall and Henson left and Barnes and McAdoo returned. UNC would be a lot less scary to me in that situation, because it would put a lot of pressure on those two guys (and Strickland and McDonald) to realize their potential.

    Even if it strengthens one of our opponents/rivals, I tend to think about this question based on how much I enjoy seeing really good college basketball players play the game at the college level. For example, even though I knew it was going to make life miserable for Duke twice a year, I was thrilled when Tim Duncan stayed at Wake for 4 years. I got to see him play in person a few more times. As talented as Harrison Barnes seems to be, I actually find him incredibly frustrating to watch as a basketball fan, and frankly don't like his attitude, demeanor or effort. I see him putting up numbers, significantly because of the talent he plays with, but I never got the perception that other teams (Duke included) put any extra emphasis on stopping Barnes. No one played a box and one against him. He was a difference maker for a few games late last season. In my opinion he was the fourth best player on his team this year and had the second best season of players from his high school team. A national player of the year candidate? He wasn't even in the conversation for conference player of the year. Stay or go, unless he changes his stripes, I won't enjoy watching him play at UNC or in the NBA.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by devilsadvocate85 View Post
    Even if it strengthens one of our opponents/rivals, I tend to think about this question based on how much I enjoy seeing really good college basketball players play the game at the college level. For example, even though I knew it was going to make life miserable for Duke twice a year, I was thrilled when Tim Duncan stayed at Wake for 4 years. I got to see him play in person a few more times. As talented as Harrison Barnes seems to be, I actually find him incredibly frustrating to watch as a basketball fan, and frankly don't like his attitude, demeanor or effort. I see him putting up numbers, significantly because of the talent he plays with, but I never got the perception that other teams (Duke included) put any extra emphasis on stopping Barnes. No one played a box and one against him. He was a difference maker for a few games late last season. In my opinion he was the fourth best player on his team this year and had the second best season of players from his high school team. A national player of the year candidate? He wasn't even in the conversation for conference player of the year. Stay or go, unless he changes his stripes, I won't enjoy watching him play at UNC or in the NBA.
    To be fair, Kansas did play a triangle and 2 to guard Barnes and Hairston/Bullock while leaving the other 3 to protect the paint. But aside from that, I agree. He has not been a transcendent player at the college level, and has displayed a kind of aloof attitude that doesn't mesh with the level of performance he's given on the court. He's a terrific player for sure. It's just that he's been more style than substance to this point.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Yeah, but if the other guys go pro (especially Marshall), Barnes would have almost no choice but to join them, because without a top-flight PG feeding him, Barnes's stock would most likely drop in a rebuilding situation.
    If I were him, I would agree with you but I don't think that either of us has his ego. He just might think that he is the best player on the team and with the others gone he can take the keys to the car and show everyone how truly great he is. Realistically, he's already turned down being a lottery pick once already and I think that it is unlikely he does it again. I would be happy to see him leave, I'm just saying that his departure is not at the top of my wish list.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    To be fair, Kansas did play a triangle and 2 to guard Barnes and Hairston/Bullock while leaving the other 3 to protect the paint. But aside from that, I agree. He has not been a transcendent player at the college level, and has displayed a kind of aloof attitude that doesn't mesh with the level of performance he's given on the court. He's a terrific player for sure. It's just that he's been more style than substance to this point.
    Well, just to put in my view....a few points

    1. It's not clear to me that he is a "terrific player"; he is IMO a good player and a dangerous player who can score in bunches, but lacks some other elements
    2. His demeanor and attitude are puzzling, a bit different
    3. There's a major gap between the hype that surrounded HB (which Barnes himself certainly promoted) and his performance.

    I'm not sure what to expect next from Barnes; he may declare for the draft, or he may not.
    He may make significant improvements to his game, or he may not. I'm pretty well convinced that Barnes does not have a high ceiling (NBA All-Star for example) but could be good.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    To be fair, Kansas did play a triangle and 2 to guard Barnes and Hairston/Bullock while leaving the other 3 to protect the paint. But aside from that, I agree. He has not been a transcendent player at the college level, and has displayed a kind of aloof attitude that doesn't mesh with the level of performance he's given on the court. He's a terrific player for sure. It's just that he's been more style than substance to this point.
    True, but they were respecting his shot, not necessarily his game. I don't think anybody would argue that Hairston or Bullock are good enough players to be the focus of a junk defense. Sometimes the triangle and two is designed to stop the "two," but in this case it was designed to stop the interior and just to make sure the outside guys didn't get wide open looks. Basically, Kansas could play the triangle and two because they didn't care if White/Watts took outside shots, so why not put an extra defender in the paint to help stop Zeller and Henson.

  11. #51
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  12. #52
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    I really think McAdoo will be "the dude" next year if he comes back.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldnavy View Post
    I really think McAdoo will be "the dude" next year if he comes back.
    Actually, I expect that Barnes would be happy to see McAdoo and Marhsall come back, and might influence HB to go for another year on the Hill.
    Takes the pressure off him and gives him space in the defense for shot opportunities; we know how he likes shot opportunities.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by roywhite View Post
    Well, just to put in my view....a few points

    1. It's not clear to me that he is a "terrific player"; he is IMO a good player and a dangerous player who can score in bunches, but lacks some other elements
    2. His demeanor and attitude are puzzling, a bit different
    3. There's a major gap between the hype that surrounded HB (which Barnes himself certainly promoted) and his performance.

    I'm not sure what to expect next from Barnes; he may declare for the draft, or he may not.
    He may make significant improvements to his game, or he may not. I'm pretty well convinced that Barnes does not have a high ceiling (NBA All-Star for example) but could be good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    True, but they were respecting his shot, not necessarily his game. I don't think anybody would argue that Hairston or Bullock are good enough players to be the focus of a junk defense. Sometimes the triangle and two is designed to stop the "two," but in this case it was designed to stop the interior and just to make sure the outside guys didn't get wide open looks. Basically, Kansas could play the triangle and two because they didn't care if White/Watts took outside shots, so why not put an extra defender in the paint to help stop Zeller and Henson.
    Totally agree with both of these posts. I didn't mean to overstate Barnes' abilities, though in reading my post I can certainly see how that came across as such. He's terrific at one thing: shooting. And even then, he's only really terrific at open set shots, with the occasional ability to hit mid-range shots off the dribble.

  15. #55
    I don't really buy the whole argument that Barnes needs Marshall to be effective or that Marshall's absence is the explanation for Barnes' struggles. I also disagree that he failed to improve this year.

    I'm too lazy to look up stats at the moment, but I think it's worth noting the obvious point that Marshall makes everyone better; most of our numbers dropped when Marshall was off the court, so there is not that much unique about Barnes in that regard. Yes, Barnes improved dramatically when Marshall took over from LDII, but some/ much of that was a function of getting accustomed to the college game.

    More to the point, Barnes started slumping toward the end of this season, well before Marshall went out. I can't remember a 20-point game in the last few weeks of the season, except the ACC final. At one point about halfway through the season, he was in the high-40s in terms of overall shooting percentage and mid 40s for 3P%. He probably finished in the mid-40s and mid-30s respectively. For whatever reason, he lost his outside touch. It happens, shooters go through slumps. This one was particularly ill-timed, but a shooting slump is hardly uncommon. I felt like I watched him miss a million wide-open threes in the last quarter of the season.

    He definitely improved his ability to drive to the basket this season, as evidenced by his increase in foul shot attempts. But once his outside touch left him, he had a little more trouble in that aspect of his game too. In part, this was because his first step is not that quick and once he was less of a threat to take a one-dribble pull up, defenders could play him to prevent the drive. I also think it was part a loss of confidence. It seemed so obvious that he was pressing the last few weeks, which is what happens to most players who loses his or her touch. Few players who are first and foremost shooters can keep a shooting slump from affecting other parts of the game.

    I agree with some of the criticism of Barnes' personality, i.e. that he is too self-conscious of his brand, that he appears robotic and has trouble just letting the game come to him. And I fear that has taken some of the fun out of the game for him. But much of the criticism I find over the top and off putting. Absent the tremendous expectations that surround him, which admittedly he helped create, we would be more likely to focus on his impressive feat of having led our team in scoring two years in a row. How many sophomores that average 17+ points and 5+ rebounds catch this much heat?

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoHeel View Post
    How many sophomores that average 17+ points and 5+ rebounds catch this much heat?
    Only the ones that are preseason All-American two years in a row.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Marshall took over the point, Harrison Barnes has been a 1st Team/2nd Team All-ACC caliber player. Prior to that, Barnes struggled. Had Marshall been the PG from the get-go, I have little doubt that Barnes would have been at least 2nd Team All-ACC as a freshman (probably 1st Team).
    Agreed and, FWIW, I agree that Marshall's impact on Barnes's performance has been huge. I also agree completely that Marshall should have been 1st team All-ACC and Barnes 2nd team. I stop a little short of making the assertion that Barnes's improvement has been "almost entirely" due to Marshall...it would be hard to prove that assertion, unless Marshall goes pro and Barnes does not, and Barnes regresses to his pre-Marshall performance level (toward this argument, I wouldn't make too much out of Barnes's NCAA tournament performance - it's hard on any player to adjust to a new PG for a 4 game span and a drop in numbers may represent a struggle with adjusting to the new passer rather than the actual limits of the player.)

    But I think we're actually in agreement that Marshall has made Barnes look a whole lot better than Barnes would look wthout him.
    Brian Zoubek on what was going through his mind walking to the free throw line with 3.6 seconds remaining in the 2010 National Championship game and Duke up by 1: "Fifty percent [of me is] thinking, This is what I've been dreaming of doing my entire life. Fifty percent I'm crapping my pants."

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreezingDevil View Post
    In some alternate universe, it wouldn't surprise me if Barnes actually would have been more successful as a player -- and ultimately as a brand -- had he gone to Duke.
    As I've watched Austin's development this year I've thought a lot about how it compares to Barnes's last year. Both struggled early on after coming in with a lot of hype. Both were expected to be leaders of their teams as freshmen and had to balance how to lead without playing selfishly. While both players improved over the course of the year, I feel like Rivers has become a much better player, improving on all aspects of his game and continuing to work hard. When he wasn't bringing it during the season, Coach K wasn't afraid to bench him, and he responded well. Coach K wasn't intimidated by his father's stature. Conversely, Barnes seems like mostly the same player even after an additional year - great shooter, uses his height well to shoot over smaller defenders, is ok at most other things but no other skills really stand out.

    I realize this is a totally biased view, but I do think Barnes would have been better off coming to Duke. We certainly could have used him this year.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    As I've watched Austin's development this year I've thought a lot about how it compares to Barnes's last year. Both struggled early on after coming in with a lot of hype. Both were expected to be leaders of their teams as freshmen and had to balance how to lead without playing selfishly. While both players improved over the course of the year, I feel like Rivers has become a much better player, improving on all aspects of his game and continuing to work hard. When he wasn't bringing it during the season, Coach K wasn't afraid to bench him, and he responded well. Coach K wasn't intimidated by his father's stature. Conversely, Barnes seems like mostly the same player even after an additional year - great shooter, uses his height well to shoot over smaller defenders, is ok at most other things but no other skills really stand out.

    I realize this is a totally biased view, but I do think Barnes would have been better off coming to Duke. We certainly could have used him this year.
    I think the decision by Barnes was always to chase Jordan's legacy. He seems to repeatedly reference Jordan. It's understandable. In hindsight don't think there was ever a chance we were going to get him. It's just kind of surprising that it wasn't more obvious early on (mother's obsession with Jordan, middle name includes Jordan).

    I don't think the fact that Singler would play in front of him as a freshman helped even if Duke was legitimately in the running. At UNC, he'd be handed the SF reigns right away. I'm sure that only solidified things.

    I won't speculate as to which program would have better prepared him. Both coaches have put quite a lot of talent in the NBA over the years. I think the biggest thing would have been up to Barnes in either case. Maybe he'd have prepared differently at Duke, maybe not. It's just too hard to say.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    I realize this is a totally biased view, but I do think Barnes would have been better off coming to Duke. We certainly could have used him this year.
    Well, I'm not sure how much the addition of HB would have helped this year's Duke team. Obviously he would have played for us, and been a quality scorer, but he seems sort of redundant. Barnes is a great shooter with questionable handle who seems not to always bring it on defense. Sound familiar? Yes, I know he has more size than our other SF options, but other than that what would he give us that we couldn't get from our other shooters?

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