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  1. #21
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    Nov 2007
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    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Stealth View Post
    It's an interesting question if college players should really be called kids or not. Harrison Barnes himself would probably prefer that he be considered a grown man at this point. I think that representing a university as a celebrated athlete on the national stage only adds to that, and that's before you even consider the steps he has personally taken to increase his own exposure and, of course, "brand." Soon he will be a professional and a millionaire, and if people Barnes's age really are kids who should be protected, then maybe we should reconsider who is eligible to serve in our military.

    I do completely agree with your comments about bringing student bodies into a rivalry that is supposed to be about sports.
    Its also worth noting whenever people complain about this on the internet that some of the posters here (and fans in general) are about the same age or even younger than the players being discussed. I just graduated college, have several close friends younger than HB, and would hesitate to call them kids.

    Of course, I'm sure I'll have a different perspective on the kid-man continuum when I'm 45, so I guess this is all about perspective.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by El_Diablo View Post
    I usually think Grantland articles are worthless hyperbolic blather. This one is no different.
    Have to agree. It had a tremendous story at its inception about the late, great "National" newspaper. Downhill since.

  3. #23
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    Mar 2007
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    Philly
    Quote Originally Posted by superdave View Post
    "It's not entirely fair to judge Barnes in two games without his point guard, but it's particularly damning that a lottery-bound perimeter scorer couldn't create his own shot against the mighty Ohio Bobcats. On Sunday, in the biggest game of his career, Barnes missed his last six shots and looked lost when the game was on the line."
    I dont know why I'm defending the guy since he was largely a disappointment, albeit next to the INSANELY high expectations thrust upon him (or perhaps brought upon him by himself), but the Bobcats are a great perimeter defensive team. They hold teams to <30% shooting from 3 and I picked them to upset Michigan and get to the sweet 16 based on their perimeter defense.

    But yea, that should still probably cause alarm for NBA GMs thinking about drafting him early in the lottery.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    Of course, I'm sure I'll have a different perspective on the kid-man continuum when I'm 45, so I guess this is all about perspective.
    You will, Sonny, and probably earlier than 45.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by El_Diablo View Post
    I usually think Grantland articles are worthless hyperbolic blather. This one is no different.
    The article works if you place it in context as a response to the hagiographic Atlantic article by Chapel Hill resident Jason Zengerle that is linked in its first paragraph and featured these sorts of observations

    Barnes, now a sophomore at UNC, has lived up to the hype, both on and off the court. A 6-foot-8 small forward with a silky jumper and a knack for hitting game-winning shots, he’s also widely touted as college basketball’s most cerebral star since Bill Bradley

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...eyballer/8911/

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    On the couch
    I thought the article was fair. Barnes is methodical and stiff. I don't think he has made much improvement at all since he came to UNC. He has had some really good games, and some not so good games. It is very clear that Marshall makes him a better player. Barnes really cannot create anything on his own, his ball handling is poor, and he is hesitant to get physical.

    But, all of the things above can be improved on given the right environment. I do not think he is going to get better at UNC. I have never seen Roy get into Barnes face like he has with other players on UNC. Maybe he has, but it seems to me that Barnes can do or not do whatever he wants to with a pretty long leash. This is just my opinion based on watching about every UNC game in the last two years, but I really do not know what goes on off camera.

    What I think is going to ultimately deceide Barnes' legacy is his attitude and persona. If he would lighten up and seem to just relax and be that kid (take a lesson from Henson) and just play ball, I think he could become a phenominal talent.

    But right now, he is like the Tiger Woods of college basketball, without any of the accomplishments. Tiger is hard to warm up too, but by gosh he basically dominated his sport for years, so we (the public) overlooked the distance he seemed to keep everyone at.

    Barnes does not have that ability now. His brand will never become a brand unless he either loosens up and has some success or stays the way he is and dominate the sport....

    Either of these options may be out of his reach...

  7. #27
    Kinda looks like hb, yes?

    fly away hb.jpeg

    Is that huck letting him fly away?

    pigeon.jpeg

    Oh, what the heck; thought I'd add this one. Hiya huck!

    images.jpeg

  8. #28
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    Feb 2007
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    New York City
    Quote Originally Posted by FreezingDevil View Post
    Another great read from Grantland. One thing that the author does not mention, but complements his argument, is that a big factor in Barnes' decision to go to Carolina was do to his desire to "build his brand". I remember during the recruitment process that Barnes made a big deal out of the fact that UNC had a business and marketing major, while Duke does not. And then there's the whole Jordan thing, the brand of all brands. To be honest, if my #1 priority was to become a global icon, I'd probably pick Carolina over Duke too.

    Yet, as the article points out, brands need to be supported by a quality product and Barnes has struggled to back up the hype. In some alternate universe, it wouldn't surprise me if Barnes actually would have been more successful as a player -- and ultimately as a brand -- had he gone to Duke. Think about it -- at Duke his freshman year he would not have been required to be "the man" right away and might not have had his confidence crushed at a critical stage. He would have picked up some toughness banging away with Singler in practice and might have learned from Nolan how to endear oneself to a fanbase. Undoubtedly, Coach K would have improved Barnes' defense and have given him a stern talking to when his level of effort wasn't there. I could be wrong, but I always got the impression that Roy could be soft with Barnes at times.

    All that is to say that I think Barnes could have been a much more improved basketball player after two years at Duke than Carolina. Kind of ironic isn't it?

    Yes. I thought this was the most interesting commentary in that piece:

    What other basketball phenom would think himself into a pretzel and decide that the best way to promote Harrison Barnes, the brand, would be to talk about Harrison Barnes, the brand? Especially when every other super-athlete who talked openly about brands has been met with the public's wrath? Derrick Rose, the antimatter to the brand-building NBA, just signed a $200 million shoe contract. Hasn't it become clear that the way to really build your brand is to breathe basketball, win championships, and throw a couple very public shots at LeBron & Co.?
    Singler is IRON

    I STILL GOT IT! -- Ryan Kelly, March 2, 2013

  9. #29
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    Feb 2008
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    Lewisville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Atlanta Duke View Post
    The article works if you place it in context as a response to the hagiographic Atlantic article by Chapel Hill resident Jason Zengerle that is linked in its first paragraph and featured these sorts of observations

    Barnes, now a sophomore at UNC, has lived up to the hype, both on and off the court. A 6-foot-8 small forward with a silky jumper and a knack for hitting game-winning shots, he’s also widely touted as college basketball’s most cerebral star since Bill Bradley

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...eyballer/8911/
    The "most cerebral" comment is another area where the hype seems to far exceed the reality.

    By most indications, Barnes is a good student, but did not attain All-ACC Academic teams in his first two years.
    By contrast, his teammate Tyler Zeller was a 4-time All-ACC Academic honoree, and twice an Academic All-America choice.
    No indication if Barnes wants to be a Rhodes Scholar like Bill Bradley, though just think what it would do for the brand.

  10. #30
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    Feb 2008
    Location
    Charlotte, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Is it coincidence though that his improvement as a freshman coincided with Marshall taking over the offense? He averaged 19ppg and 6.3rpg last year after Marshall became the starting PG. He averaged 17.1ppg and 5.2rpg this year with essentially the same lineup. Is that really improvement?
    I noted in my post that Marshall becoming point guard was at least partly responsible for Barnes' improvement.

    It's also kind of unfair to compare the stats of part of a season against the stats of an entire season. Was Barnes's sophomore season better than his freshman season? Absolutely. Of course, his sophomore season was played almost entirely with Marshall at the point, and that accounts for at least some of the improvement. But it's pretty tough to say that Barnes, himself, has made no improvement whatsoever.

    We tend to really be harsh on Barnes, myself included. He's an easy target. He's a kid who clearly bought into his HS hype, who has delusions that he is destined to be the next big thing, who plays for the wrong team, and who is, to this point, nowhere near his self-hype or media-hype. Taking a step back, however, he's also a kid who's a legitimate first or second team All-ACC player in his sophomore year.

    Here's another way of looking at this: as Duke fans, do we want him to come back to UNC next season or not? Do we perceive UNC as being a more formidable opponent next season with Barnes starting for the Heels or in the NBA? If Barnes is really an limited player with a stagnant game, I guess we should hope he comes back for his junior year so he can take up a spot in Roy's rotation. As far as I'm concerned, I hope he goes to the NBA. I'd rather face UNC next season without him than with him.
    Brian Zoubek on what was going through his mind walking to the free throw line with 3.6 seconds remaining in the 2010 National Championship game and Duke up by 1: "Fifty percent [of me is] thinking, This is what I've been dreaming of doing my entire life. Fifty percent I'm crapping my pants."

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    20 Minutes From The Heaven That Is Cameron Indoor
    Here is another interesting quote from Barnes in the Atlantic article (I would suggest reading that article to see the quotes from Barnes himself). Reading the below quote, you have to wonder how much this years Final Four location (exactly 30 years after his namesake's "shot) factored into his decision to return as a Sophomore.

    Barnes quote in parenthesis
    “There’s no better exposure and no better way of getting the hype machine going than UNC returning back to New Orleans, 30 years after Michael Jordan, of all people, won it there,” Barnes told me. For the first and only time, he dropped his cautious analysis and let his excitement show. “It would be an unbelievable stage,” he said, breaking into a wide smile. “And if we end up winning a national championship there? The media might just explode.” And so, ultimately, would Barnes’s bank account.
    “I strongly feel that that’s not a basketball issue. I’m in charge of the basketball program as much the chancellor and the athletic director allow me to be. And it’s not a basketball issue.”
    Williams said, he is aware of the classes that his players take. “I think it varies on a coach,” he said. “I mean, I’m pretty aware of what our guys are doing. And it’s not a basketball issue, guys. It is not a basketball issue. It’s a university issue.
    Roy Williams 2012

  12. #32
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    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    Here is another interesting quote from Barnes in the Atlantic article (I would suggest reading that article to see the quotes from Barnes himself). Reading the below quote, you have to wonder how much this years Final Four location (exactly 30 years after his namesake's "shot) factored into his decision to return as a Sophomore.

    Barnes quote in parenthesis
    “There’s no better exposure and no better way of getting the hype machine going than UNC returning back to New Orleans, 30 years after Michael Jordan, of all people, won it there,” Barnes told me. For the first and only time, he dropped his cautious analysis and let his excitement show. “It would be an unbelievable stage,” he said, breaking into a wide smile. “And if we end up winning a national championship there? The media might just explode.” And so, ultimately, would Barnes’s bank account.
    It bothers me that he compares himself to jordan....,and he does so at EVERY opportunity...even listing himself as 2" shorter than he was for years to be the same height as him. They couldn't be more different.

    For jordan, the brand came becuase he was good at basketball...he wanted to be great at basketball and the fame was a consequence....for barnes, basketball is just a vehicle to become rich and famous....the means, not the ends....and thats why he will NEVER be jordan....aside from the fact that he just isn't great

    I think the article is a spot on analysis of barnes' character. My favorite barnes anecdote is still from the middle of last season...when he was having a bad year....he was talking to someone (might have been jordan) and asked "do you think I can still win national player of the year"....I can't think of anoyter person so conceited that while there team is mediocre, they're wondering whether they can still win NPOY...CERTAINLY not MJ...jordan would be wondering how he could make himself a better basketball player, and how he could help his team win the championship....not whether he would leave a legacy....the legacy came because he did all the other things.
    9f

  13. #33
    The whole key to the matter is RW wants to run and gun, just as fast pace as possible. However, when they do get in the halfcourt, they like to feed the bigs, then send the house to crash the boards. Barnes would have been a better fit at Duke because he would have had more opportunies in the half court and a coach who specializes in the half court. A more "coached offense".

  14. #34
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    Feb 2008
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    20 Minutes From The Heaven That Is Cameron Indoor
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    It bothers me that he compares himself to jordan....,and he does so at EVERY opportunity...even listing himself as 2" shorter than he was for years to be the same height as him. They couldn't be more different.

    For jordan, the brand came becuase he was good at basketball...he wanted to be great at basketball and the fame was a consequence....for barnes, basketball is just a vehicle to become rich and famous....the means, not the ends....and thats why he will NEVER be jordan....aside from the fact that he just isn't great

    I think the article is a spot on analysis of barnes' character. My favorite barnes anecdote is still from the middle of last season...when he was having a bad year....he was talking to someone (might have been jordan) and asked "do you think I can still win national player of the year"....I can't think of anoyter person so conceited that while there team is mediocre, they're wondering whether they can still win NPOY...CERTAINLY not MJ...jordan would be wondering how he could make himself a better basketball player, and how he could help his team win the championship....not whether he would leave a legacy....the legacy came because he did all the other things.
    That was actually Jeff Goodman. Goodman wrote an article on it. Barnes called him out of the blue in January, and asked him 3 questions:
    1. Did I think he still had a shot of being an All-American?

    2. Did he still have a chance of being the national Player of the Year?

    3. Most important, did I think the North Carolina Tar Heels could cut down the nets?

    Link:http://http://msn.foxsports.com/coll...arolina-041811
    “I strongly feel that that’s not a basketball issue. I’m in charge of the basketball program as much the chancellor and the athletic director allow me to be. And it’s not a basketball issue.”
    Williams said, he is aware of the classes that his players take. “I think it varies on a coach,” he said. “I mean, I’m pretty aware of what our guys are doing. And it’s not a basketball issue, guys. It is not a basketball issue. It’s a university issue.
    Roy Williams 2012

  15. #35
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    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    That was actually Jeff Goodman. Goodman wrote an article on it. Barnes called him out of the blue in January, and asked him 3 questions:
    1. Did I think he still had a shot of being an All-American?

    2. Did he still have a chance of being the national Player of the Year?

    3. Most important, did I think the North Carolina Tar Heels could cut down the nets?

    Link:http://http://msn.foxsports.com/coll...arolina-041811
    Wow. Thanks for the link.

    Its every bit as bad as I recalled. I just don't get what the point of worrying about that stuff is. If i focus every bit of energy at being the best I can be, the other stuff is irrelevant. Being the best player I can be will do the most to help (3) happen, and (1) and (2) are up to the fickle opinions of the sportswriters....what WONT help my team is worrying whether something is still possible
    9f

  16. #36
    While I enjoy a little laugh at Barnes' expense as much as the next Dukie, and agree with the absurdity of his desire to "brand" himself, I still have to admit that I am hoping and praying that he decides to take his "brand" to the NBA. Because he is a darn good player and I would rather play UNC without him than with him. So yeah, maybe he's stiff and calculating and corny and false. And maybe he's been a disappointment based on expectations (his? ours? experts?) But I still have to pay him his due, he is a very good player.

  17. #37
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    Feb 2009
    Location
    Durham
    I agree that I hope he goes pro. He is a great high school player, a very good college player, and I think he will be a role player in the NBA. UNC is certainly better with him for sure, so I hope he takes his talents and ego to the pros where they belong.

  18. #38
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    Mar 2008
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    raleigh
    some people ask for this...

    HWNSNBM rolls in the arrogance and hype like it's his birthright.


    what now pigeon?
    "Either we're going down, or they are....... Kirk out!"

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Harrison Barnes
    The school that I choose to be my alma mater, indeed, the place where I will leave my legacy, had the right balance of both academics and basketball that which I thought I could achieve the goals I wanted to pursue. Today, I'm proud to announce the school I will attend in the fall of 2010 will be the coach I'm going to Skype …
    If you can in ANY way feel sorry for the person who said THAT, you are a better man than I.

    the place where I will leave my legacy? can you say anything more presumptuous and arrogant?
    9f

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Virginia
    I agree that I would like to see him go pro but if I'm looking at the UNC's roster and thinking who I most want to go pro, it isn't him. I'd rather see Marshall go because he's the engine that makes the team run, McAdoo because I think that he will be a monster next year and Henson because I think he is just a nasty match up problem.

    As good as HB is he's a bit of a ball hog and without Marshall, he might disrupt their offensive flow. He would also contribute to the backcourt log jam. This might sound strange but remember that UNC got better as their roster was shortened because on injuries. While we all wish that K would play a deeper bench, UNC fans all wish Ol'Roy would play a shorter one. Constant substitutions can disrupt some player's flow.

    So, yes HB is a good player and I would happy to see him leave, but wouldn't it be kind of nice if the other 3 left and Duke caught a couple of roster breaks in the form of MP2 returning and signing another recruit (I'm talking about you Bazz). That way we could see him to lose to Duke a couple more times and may see him sink further in the draft. A guy can dream, right?

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