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  1. #81
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Van Nuys, CA
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I look at our team compared to UK, and I see the disparity pretty clearly. Kentucky has incredibly versatile players at the 2-4 spots on the floor. Jones can play either forward spot. Kidd-Gilchrest can play SG, SF, or PF. Miller can play SG or SF. Lamb off the bench can play PG, SG, SF. All five starters and their sixth man are capable of initiating transition offense once they get the ball (even Davis - the C).

    It's that type of length, athleticism, and versatility that have been missing. This year, we had probably 3 players on the roster who had that type of length, athleticism, and versatility. One was Rivers. The other two were Murphy and Gbinije, but neither were apparently ready to contribute this year enough to oust the veteran wing players on the team. And while Rivers was versatile, he had his limitations too (couldn't play off the ball, couldn't distribute).

    The rest of the team was pretty limited. The Plumlees were capable against bigs but lacked quickness and offensive polish. Kelly could shoot but struggled a lot against quicker players and didn't show much post game. Curry could shoot and occasionally drive but struggled against taller physical guards. Dawkins could shoot. Thornton could see the floor and was a great off-ball defender but struggled offensively. Cook showed offensive promise but was limited by height and perhaps lingering knee issues. And nobody outside of (occasionally) Rivers could consistently defend against dribble penetration.

    The 2010 team was an anomaly, but only in that those senior bigs finally figured things out. We had defensive versatility at 4 spots with that team. We had offensive versatility from 3 players. We had no perimeter depth and thus were fortunate not to face adversity there, but the starters fit the ideals perfectly (tall, long, and defensively versatile). Had those guys figured it out a year or two earlier (and had we switched PG earlier as well), we might have made some tournament noise sooner.

    I hope that some of the following things happen the next several months (in no particular order):
    1. Gbinije and Murphy make big strides and emerge as key players
    2a. We get Oriakhi (and he's eligible right away) to add athleticism and toughness in the absence of Miles and (presumably) Mason
    2b. We get Mason back for his senior year
    3. We get Zeigler (and he's eligible right away) or Muhammad
    4. Sulaimon is an impact player on the wing both offensively and defensively
    5. Dawkins gets MUCH stronger with the ball and improves his focus and defense
    6. Curry gets stronger with the ball and can become a scoring PG
    7. Cook gets healthy and can be an ACC-caliber starting PG

    It would be REALLY nice if several of those things could happen so that we can improve our versatility and not be so much of a one-trick pony as we were this year (even though that trick was fairly effective for a while).
    Dawkins improving? 3 years he is basically the same player he was on the 2010 team. I would not hold my breath for that development.Cook was healthy in February and March. He may be the most important player that needs to improve in the off season.

  2. #82
    Re: Mason's eliteness.... he only averaged 15 points a game his senior year in high school. Tyler Zeller averaged 33 points a game his senior year. Everyone knows this right?

    Mason was always destined to be inconsistent on offense because he doesn't have natural touch. His high recruiting ranking was mostly due to his height and leaping ability, not things that necessarily translate into becoming an offensive force.

    If you took Mason and added more natural touch, more flexibility in his torso (has anyone watched Mason run? who runs like that?), and a wider base, he could become a great scorer. But there are some natural gifts missing with him.

    Still, I am happy with his development for what he is. If he were to actually be around for his senior year, I think he'd become a good scorer, perhaps mid-teens in scoring average.

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Van Nuys, CA
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Oh I certainly believe he has the ability to be elite. And there have definitely been times when he looked the part of elite. But even in that 9-9 game, Mason showed the limitations, committing four bad turnovers and looking a bit lost when the defense finally started doubling him.

    I think Coach K wanted nothing more than to utilize Mason as an elite big man this year. But I think it was a combination of things that prevented it from happening, some of them on Mason (still not fully comfortable in the post and very few moves) and some not (inability/unwillingness of guards to properly feed him in the post).
    Mason has no jump shot period!. He puts the ball on the floor too much. Most of the time it results in a turnover. He was 9 for 9 on dunks. Sometimes he misses those. Take your Duke blue glasses off.He blocks shots,but does not keep them in play. He has a million miles to go before he could be considered elite. Maybe he should go to the NBA to get better instruction on how to improve his game.

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    You and a handful of people in Chapel Hill were the only people who thought UNC was "at least equal" to Duke in 2011. Your suggestion that even if we beat them we're not "compet[ing] on an even basis with UNC's talent" makes no sense.
    You have to be kidding me. In the final polls they finished 8 and we finished 7.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by loldevilz View Post
    You have to be kidding me. In the final polls they finished 8 and we finished 7.
    The postseason coaches' poll? Well, that changes everything.

  6. #86
    I don't get where the complaints about Coach K's recruiting are coming from. We brought in the #2 class in America this season featuring three McDonalds All-Americans, and Alex Murphy probably would have been a fourth if he had remained in the 2012 class. Even if you take Austin Rivers out of the equation, this was still a great recruiting class. The year before that, we had the #6 class, featuring the #1 overall pick in the NBA Draft, Kyrie Irving. If you would rather us not go after big name recruits who have the chance of going one-and-done, that's fine; it seems to be the strategy Coach K took until he signed Irving, when he realized the college basketball recruiting game had changed and he needed to adapt. I know our recruiting class this year only has one player (a very good one might I add), but we still are in the running for three McDonald's All-Americans, and we also have two hold-overs from the 2011 class who red-shirted and will bolster our freshman class (we're basically bringing in one 5-star recruit and two 4-star recruits).

    Also, transfers hurt our 2008 class badly, as I'm sure you all know. As we saw with both of their new schools, Elliot Williams and Olek Czyz were both very good basketball players that certainly could have contributed on this year's Duke team, but for one reason or another it didn't work out in Durham. With the lack of a full senior class, it was a good opportunity for our underclassmen to emerge as leaders, and we got a good idea of who had that in them and who didn't. I think this will pay dividends for the team next season, and I definitely don't think we will be "down" like many critics have hinted at; I think we will be in contention for an ACC championship just like we have the past five seasons. Whether this translates into tournament success is another story, and it's a long ways away.
    Last edited by CameronCrazy06; 03-26-2012 at 06:32 PM.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by IBleedBlue View Post
    If we had lengthy and atheltic wings, loss of Ryan Kelly would have hurt less.
    gbinije is a lengthy and athletic wing.

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Columbus OH 614
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronCrazy06 View Post
    I don't get where the complaints about Coach K's recruiting are coming from. We brought in the #2 class in America this season featuring three McDonalds All-Americans, and Alex Murphy probably would have been a fourth if he had remained in the 2012 class. Even if you take Austin Rivers out of the equation, this was still a great recruiting class. The year before that, we had the #6 class, featuring the #1 overall pick in the NBA Draft, Kyrie Irving. If you would rather us not go after big name recruits who have the chance of going one-and-done, that's fine; it seems to be the strategy Coach K took until he signed Irving, when he realized the college basketball recruiting game had changed and he needed to adapt. I know our recruiting class this year only has one player (a very good one might I add), but we still are in the running for three McDonald's All-Americans, and we also have two hold-overs from the 2011 class who red-shirted and will bolster our freshman class (we're basically bringing in one 5-star recruit and two 4-star recruits).

    Also, transfers hurt our 2008 class badly, as I'm sure you all know. As we saw with both of their new schools, Elliot Williams and Olek Czyz were both very good basketball players that certainly could have contributed on this year's Duke team, but for one reason or another it didn't work out in Durham. With the lack of a full senior class, it was a good opportunity for our underclassmen to emerge as leaders, and we got a good idea of who had that in them and who didn't. I think this will pay dividends for the team next season, and I definitely don't think we will be "down" like many critics have hinted at; I think we will be in contention for an ACC championship just like we have the past five seasons. Whether this translates into tournament success is another story, and it's a long ways away.
    If you think about it that way probably would have been a recruiting class of 5 McDonald's AA....only reason Mike G wasn't and the same reason Alex wouldn't have been one had he not reclassified is that they were 5th year seniors and didn't qualify...Im sure Alex would've been a Jordan Brand AA.....You'd have to be near crazy to think that's a lull in recruiting

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Columbus OH 614
    Quote Originally Posted by fgb View Post
    gbinije is a lengthy and athletic wing.
    You're seriously the first person besides myself to say that.....we had the athletic long wing everyone swears we need, for whatever reason he sat the bench most of the year though....I think K is the greatest coach ever but Mike and Quinn for that matter should've got more burn.

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    How did we get to this point?

    I agree. How did we as a fanbase get so self-entitled and spoiled that we angst about recruiting classes outside the top five, and an early loss with a key player injured?

    Good gravy.
    Twerp-free since July 1, 2014.

  11. #91
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    How did we get to this point?

    I agree. How did we as a fanbase get so self-entitled and spoiled that we angst about recruiting classes outside the top five, and an early loss with a key player injured?

    Good gravy.
    I agree that people are complaining way too much about recruiting, but Duke and other top bball schools are never accurately ranked. Just like many of our players were McD All-Americans because they chose Duke. To say that Thornton, Hairston, Irving class was top 5 is absurd, especially when you consider that Irving was a guaranteed 1-and-done.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by dcar1985 View Post
    You're seriously the first person besides myself to say that.....we had the athletic long wing everyone swears we need, for whatever reason he sat the bench most of the year though....I think K is the greatest coach ever but Mike and Quinn for that matter should've got more burn.
    I couldn't agree more. Mike played about 100 minutes for the season.

  13. #93
    Join Date
    Dec 2009

    Why

    If Mike was the athletic wing we need so bad; why did he log so few minutes? Mike must not have been ready; or his defense needed some fine tunning. Beats me

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Stealth View Post
    ... this whole discussion was generated based on the idea that we haven't been bringing in the talent to match UNC in recent years, based on our recruiting....
    Many, many threads, in the end, reduce to Jderf's Law. To wit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jderf View Post
    As a DBR discussion grows longer, the probability of a debate between UNC and Duke's current teams/rosters approaches 1.

  15. #95
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Mike G has to be as good at his position as Josh was at his and he's not undersized.

  16. #96
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Columbus OH 614
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildcat View Post
    If Mike was the athletic wing we need so bad; why did he log so few minutes? Mike must not have been ready; or his defense needed some fine tunning. Beats me
    I don't think he fully grasped the offense and at times looked like he didn't know exactly where to be....now the reason for that is beyond me, im not in the practices. Maybe he gets a better feel for things doing it in game versus practice.....my real point is that Mike has all those qualities we keep saying we need to get. I expect him to be big for us the next few years....

    Not that it's everything but how many dunks did we get from our non bigs...I can think of 5 the whole season and two of them came from Mike in his limited minutes...I think he's going to bring that athleticism and defense to the 3 spot next year.

  17. #97
    I think there are a couple issues at play here. First thing is that while we recruit great players, most of them specialize in long range shooting and don't give us any extra dimension. We need to recruit more slashers, skilled big man, etc. Just need a more well-balanced attack. I also think the NCAA tournament is poorly officiated which works against finesse teams such as Duke. In the spirit of "letting them play", less talented teams can get away with little bumps that should be fouls. It amazes me how NCAA tournament games always tend to be choppy with no flow because of this. This won't change, though, so the gameplan should be to recruit more athletic slashers and bangers down low to complement the outside shooting.

  18. #98
    Join Date
    Dec 2009

    Mike

    He will still be playing behind Kelly and maybe Dawk, Murphy and Plums3. Mike is going to have to work hard over the summer if he wants to get major burn next year. He may be 8th or 9th on depth chart.

  19. #99
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New York, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by GoingFor#5 View Post
    I think there are a couple issues at play here. First thing is that while we recruit great players, most of them specialize in long range shooting and don't give us any extra dimension. We need to recruit more slashers, skilled big man, etc. Just need a more well-balanced attack. I also think the NCAA tournament is poorly officiated which works against finesse teams such as Duke. In the spirit of "letting them play", less talented teams can get away with little bumps that should be fouls. It amazes me how NCAA tournament games always tend to be choppy with no flow because of this. This won't change, though, so the gameplan should be to recruit more athletic slashers and bangers down low to complement the outside shooting.
    Is there anyone other than potentially Andre Dawkins (and I would disagree that the description is applicable to him, but recognize grounds for reasonable disagreement) to whom this description is applicable? Not just on our current roster, but at any time in the past 6 years?
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by pfrduke View Post
    Is there anyone other than potentially Andre Dawkins (and I would disagree that the description is applicable to him, but recognize grounds for reasonable disagreement) to whom this description is applicable? Not just on our current roster, but at any time in the past 6 years?
    Seth Curry. Perhaps he wasn't a specialist at one point so maybe my criticism should have been directed more towards the offense we run rather than the player's abilities coming to Duke.

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