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  1. #1

    Help Me Understand Early Entry This Year

    I read this in an article about Mason:

    "New NCAA guidelines require underclassmen to make their decisions quicker than ever. The NBA’s early entry deadline is April 29, but the NCAA requires players who haven’t hired an agent to declare by April 10 that they are not entering the draft."

    So if a player is undecided on April 10th he just says he is not entering the draft, then if he decides to go pro, just changes his mind on April 28th and enters the draft. What can the NCAA do to prevent it?

    Thanks
    SoCal

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDukeFan View Post
    I read this in an article about Mason:

    "New NCAA guidelines require underclassmen to make their decisions quicker than ever. The NBA’s early entry deadline is April 29, but the NCAA requires players who haven’t hired an agent to declare by April 10 that they are not entering the draft."

    So if a player is undecided on April 10th he just says he is not entering the draft, then if he decides to go pro, just changes his mind on April 28th and enters the draft. What can the NCAA do to prevent it?

    Thanks
    SoCal
    That's a good question. It does seem like a loophole. I wonder if there's text to the effect of "if a player then changes his mind after April 10, he's not eligible for the draft until next year."

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    That's a good question. It does seem like a loophole. I wonder if there's text to the effect of "if a player then changes his mind after April 10, he's not eligible for the draft until next year."
    Would have to be an NBA rule, since the NCAA doesn't really have a say in draft eligibility. They could, I suppose, take a scholarship away from the school if someone declares after April 10, but that would be unduly harsh.
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by pfrduke View Post
    Would have to be an NBA rule, since the NCAA doesn't really have a say in draft eligibility. They could, I suppose, take a scholarship away from the school if someone declares after April 10, but that would be unduly harsh.
    Right, they are all NBA rules.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDukeFan View Post
    I read this in an article about Mason:

    "New NCAA guidelines require underclassmen to make their decisions quicker than ever. The NBA’s early entry deadline is April 29, but the NCAA requires players who haven’t hired an agent to declare by April 10 that they are not entering the draft."
    I'm a bit confused. This rule effectively makes the early entry deadline April 10 for everyone , right? Because if a player hires an agent, then he must declare for the draft (or at least he can't play college b-ball anymore). And if a player doesn't sign an agent, then he has to decide by April 10. Or is it ok to not declare by April 10 and then sign an agent for the draft?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph-Wiggum View Post
    I'm a bit confused. This rule effectively makes the early entry deadline April 10 for everyone , right? Because if a player hires an agent, then he must declare for the draft (or at least he can't play college b-ball anymore). And if a player doesn't sign an agent, then he has to decide by April 10. Or is it ok to not declare by April 10 and then sign an agent for the draft?
    Remember that the NCAA and NBA do not have a unified set of rules on this point. Instead, the NCAA exclusively determines NCAA eligibility, and the NBA exclusively determines draft eligibility.

    The NCAA has basically said that anyone who is still declared for the draft, agent or no agent, after April 10 has waived his NCAA eligibility. This means that someone formally "testing the waters" has until April 10 to announce that they are coming back to school. However, the NBA has said that players have until April 29 to sign up for the draft. What this seems to mean is that someone can informally test the waters (without an agent) during the period between April 10 and April 29, and as long as they have declared by April 29, they will be draft eligible.

    The NCAA's rule is not a deadline for kids who want to be in the draft - it's only a deadline for those who want to be (or want to leave open the possibility of being) back in school.

    What this means for us as fans is that April 29 is still the key deadline - players can declare for the draft at any time up to that day. And if the declaration happens after April 10 (or it happens before April 10 and the player hasn't rescinded by that date), it means the kid is gone for good.
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph-Wiggum View Post
    I'm a bit confused. This rule effectively makes the early entry deadline April 10 for everyone , right? Because if a player hires an agent, then he must declare for the draft (or at least he can't play college b-ball anymore). And if a player doesn't sign an agent, then he has to decide by April 10. Or is it ok to not declare by April 10 and then sign an agent for the draft?
    I read it the other way around. The rule is that you have until April 10 to withdraw and retain eligibility. So you can declare any time until the NBA's deadline, but to preserve your amateur status per NCAA rules, (1) you cannot hire an agent at any point and (2) if you plan to withdraw, you must do so by April 10. The rule governs the withdrawal deadline and not the entry timing.

    Edit: I see pfrduke beat me to it.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfrduke View Post
    Remember that the NCAA and NBA do not have a unified set of rules on this point. Instead, the NCAA exclusively determines NCAA eligibility, and the NBA exclusively determines draft eligibility.

    The NCAA has basically said that anyone who is still declared for the draft, agent or no agent, after April 10 has waived his NCAA eligibility. This means that someone formally "testing the waters" has until April 10 to announce that they are coming back to school. However, the NBA has said that players have until April 29 to sign up for the draft. What this seems to mean is that someone can informally test the waters (without an agent) during the period between April 10 and April 29, and as long as they have declared by April 29, they will be draft eligible.

    The NCAA's rule is not a deadline for kids who want to be in the draft - it's only a deadline for those who want to be (or want to leave open the possibility of being) back in school.
    That makes sense. But when a kid who never formally declared goes to a workout on April 12, will the NCAA revoke his eligibility? Seems like they might. And in that case, it's going to be awfully hard to informally test the waters because you'd only be able to talk to people and not work out.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    That makes sense. But when a kid who never formally declared goes to a workout on April 12, will the NCAA revoke his eligibility? Seems like they might. And in that case, it's going to be awfully hard to informally test the waters because you'd only be able to talk to people and not work out.
    Unless there's an NCAA rule equating working out for pro teams with declaring for the draft, I'd think this wouldn't get your eligibility revoked. But the NCAA is crazy, so what do I know?
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    That makes sense. But when a kid who never formally declared goes to a workout on April 12, will the NCAA revoke his eligibility? Seems like they might. And in that case, it's going to be awfully hard to informally test the waters because you'd only be able to talk to people and not work out.
    I'd expect that to be exactly the case. That's why folks were sort of up in arms about this when it was first reported. It basically eliminated a kid's opportunity to really test the waters.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by pfrduke View Post
    Unless there's an NCAA rule equating working out for pro teams with declaring for the draft, I'd think this wouldn't get your eligibility revoked. But the NCAA is crazy, so what do I know?
    Surprise, surprise: It seems the NCAA is crazy. This Andy Katz piece indicates that players can't work out with NBA teams until May 2:

    And the lack of knowledge on the draft rule is wide spread. A number of agents told ESPN.com Wednesday that they're scrambling to inform prospective clients about the new rule. There is a perception that underclassmen can try out for teams, as has been the case for the past two seasons with the May 8 deadline. But they can't.

    "Based on our conversations with various NCAA schools regarding requests for evaluation of our undergraduate committee, we're getting the sense that many schools, players and families are not aware of the new date or its implication,'' said Stu Jackson, the NBA's executive vice president of basketball operations. "They think they can work out for NBA teams.'' Jackson said underclassmen cannot work out for teams until they are notified about who is eligible for the draft. They won't get that list until May 2.
    Katz doesn't spell out why players can't work out for teams until teams get the list of draft-eligible players (i.e., whether it's an NCAA or NBA rule, or an agreement between the two), but Stu Jackson is presumably correct that they cannot do so. I have agree with Sonny Vaccaro that this is a pretty outrageous restriction to impose on players:

    This change in the rule has been met with disdain from one of the NCAA's harshest critics. "This is the most egregious thing the NCAA has done,'' said former grassroots basketball and longtime shoe company liaison Sonny Vaccaro. "They are empowering themselves for the benefit of themselves. There is no turning back from this decision. They've drawn the line in the stand. The athletes have no rights. This is so self-serving to coaches to guarantee that players will play on their teams.''

    Vaccaro said that the coaches who voted for this rule "are some of the most egregious people. They're asking these kids to play for them and protect them, but all they're doing is protecting themselves. They are preventing the players from getting a chance to see their value.''

  12. #12

    Now that I understand I like it

    For years the NBA has dictated and the NCAA has said that they were powerless.

    So we get one and done. Players can't go to the NBA when they want. Colleges can only get one year out of players. NBA gets to see kids play against college competition before the draft.

    If the NBA does not like this change then maybe they will sit down with the NCAA and try to work out something that is fair to the kids, good for college basketball, good for the NBA and acceptable to the player's union.

    Kids that don't want to be in college can declare and take their chances with the draft. While some players won't get as much of an evaluation, the NBA won't have as good as evaluation of the players either.

    SoCal

  13. #13
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    The whole workout point is moot. The NBA does not allow any individual workouts until after the list of entrants is released, which won't happen until after April 29. Basically, the NCAA rule just made testing the waters pointless since all you do is shorten your info gathering window.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCMatt33 View Post
    The whole workout point is moot. The NBA does not allow any individual workouts until after the list of entrants is released, which won't happen until after April 29. Basically, the NCAA rule just made testing the waters pointless since all you do is shorten your info gathering window.
    Not just pointless but, impossible. Eliminating the possibility to workout for teams means all they can do is gather information without being able to workout for teams. I really wish the NBA and NCAA would work together and put dates and rules in place that would help everyone involved, including the kids. I do think that coaches need to know who is staying and who is going before the NCAA spring signing period so they can know the needs while there is still time to sign kids. The NBA should allow the potential early entrants to workout with teams before the NCAA signing period and set an agreed upon declare/withdraw deadline that works for all involved.

    This new system is a mess. Hopefully people on both sides come to their senses and change it before next season.

    The Carolina Way:
    169 student-athletes had at least 1 semester where the grade in their paper class either pushed or kept their GPA above 2.0. At least 1 semester each of those students had recalculated GPA (excluding the paper class grade(s))below a 2.0. This includes 123 FB players, 15 Men's BB players. 81 students earned degrees from Chapel Hill whose recalculated final GPA excluding the grade(s) from their paper class or classes was less than the 2.0 required to graduate.

  15. #15
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    This article has a good list of key dates and some analysis. As noted above, a player must withdraw by April 10 if he wants to keep his NCAA eligibility, a month earlier than previously.

    http://www.draftexpress.com/article/...s-in-2012-3869

    Here's the money quote: "With the situation that is in place now, a large number of players will be forced to make career-altering decisions with an impossibly small amount of information on April 29th (or if the NCAA will have their way—April 10th), something that benefits no one."

    To me, it's yet another example (as if we needed any more) that the NCAA is interested in micromanagement and cash flow. Nothing more, nothing less. In the article, they even admit they're railroading the kids into a snap decision. It opens up a whole month of back-channel "pickup" games with "friends" for players who may or may not declare. No doubt the NCAA is eagerly looking to wield their "double secret probation" hammer against some school or player who (nudge nudge wink wink) says they're coming back to school on April 9, and then oops, hey, reads on some blog they'll be a top 10 pick and decides to declare for the draft on April 28.

    At least the NBA is making some kind of effort (despite the twisted and illogical constraints imposed by the NCAA) to get all their people together and give some sort of feedback to the kids who think they have enough game to play in the league...
    "Quality is not an option!"

  16. #16
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    NBA Early Draft and the NCAA deadline...someone make sense of this

    Ok...yesterday in the TP thread we sidetracked onto Mason's draft options and how he may stay in the draft until the 29th without risking his eligibility..which makes no sense to me, and still doesn't. To catch folks up, here's what was written.

    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    I don't know...but if that loophole does indeed exist then it makes the whole thing useless. As far as I know, Mason is indeed "testing the waters". This means that he is taking advantage of a free service provided by the NBA to educate him on where he may go. I think he is provided access to like 20 representatives in the NBA and draft process, at least I read that somewhere. (looking for a link)
    From The Chronicle...
    http://www.dukechronicle.com/article...ng-pro-options
    Being that he is a junior anyway, it would make little sense to not take advantage of this opportunity and gather some useful information while he can.
    Here's another link..and I think it clears up your misconception.
    April 3: NBA Undergraduate Advisory Committee Application Deadline
    April 6: NBA Undergraduate Advisory Committee Response Deadline
    April 10: NCAA Early Entry “Withdrawal” Deadline
    April 29: NBA Draft Early Entry Eligibility Deadline (11:59 pm ET)
    May 3 or May 4: NBA Draft Early Entry Candidates Released
    May 30: NBA Draft Lottery
    June 6-8: NBA Combine/Pre-Draft Camp (Chicago)
    June 18: NBA Draft Early Entry Withdrawal Deadline (5:00 pm ET)
    June 28: 2012 NBA Draft
    The main change that occurred this year involves the NCAA's unilaterally imposed “early-entry withdrawal deadline” of April 10th.
    From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com#ixzz1qKJRokRr
    So there are two early entry withdrawal deadlines...but one is imposed by the NCAA.
    That means that if you are in college, you have to pull out by the 10th, but if you are in another country where the NCAA has no say, then you have until the 18th of June.
    To which CDu responded...

    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    It's not a loophole. It's a black and white distinction. If he declares, he gets a few days to try to meet with NBA executives before he would have to undeclare. If he decides not to declare early, he can talk with Coach K (who can talk with his contacts) up until April 29. If by April 29 he hears through Coach K where he'd likely go in the draft, he can then decide whether or not to go to the draft.
    There are many in the media who scoff at the new NCAA deadline because it actually prevents players from really "testing the waters." Essentially, if you declare early, you have only a couple of days to actually gather information from NBA scouts before making a decision. So it's not realistic that a player will really gain any true information in time to make a decision. Those who declare early are going to basically have to stay in the draft.
    Conversely, if you don't declare early, you can take your time and (if you trust your coach) use him to gain information. Coach K has enough contacts that he can advise Mason without Mason needing to go through a rushed process of meeting with NBA folks. So he can use Coach K and take more time to make an informed decision.
    The only difference is that if you declare after April 10 you have no choice but to go. If you declare before April 10 you do, but there is very little time to actually take advantage of the window (because it's just a few days of access to the NBA folks).
    I still think it's pretty loopholey. IF you don't have to pull out by the 10th, then why does anyone who may think about returning declare at all? Anyways...it looks like Jared Cunningham is doing exactly what CDu and others have suggested, so I guess he'll be the guinea pig.
    Oregon State guard Jared Cunningham will "test" the NBA draft process, a source with direct knowledge told ESPN.com. Cunningham intends to bypass the NCAA's April 10 deadline and see if he can get enough feedback to be a first-round pick and declare by the NBA's deadline of April 29, the source said.
    http://espn.go.com/nba/draft2012/sto...rs-source-says
    By the way, the article of this article agrees with me as well, that it's a loophole.
    So...without making this specific to any players, can someone say why if you are an NCAA player that is unsure if you will stay in the draft why you wouldn't go this route?
    Mmmm, BBQ!

  17. #17
    I think you're missing the nuance here. I'm not saying he can stay in the draft until April 29. I'm saying he can wait to decide to declare until April 29. That's a very different thing. By not declaring early, you give yourself more time to decide if you want to declare. The catch is that if you wait until after April 10 to decide to declare, you can only go all-in. Call it a loophole if you like, but it seems pretty black and white clear to me.

    The April 10 deadline allows players who to take a (very) quick look directly with NBA folks and still come back. But there's nothing in the rules to suggest you can't just get information indirectly (through your coaches) and then decide after April 10 (assuming you didn't declare ahead of time). The tradeoff is that you don't get direct contact with the NBA scouts this way.

    This is, of course, entirely contingent upon whether or not he has already entered his name. If he has already entered his name, then April 10 is the deadline, period.

    Your last sentence is EXACTLY the argument I'm making. There is little good reason to declare early. If you're really on the fence, I think it makes the most sense to wait until April 28-29 to see who all is declared and get as much indirect information as possible and then make the all-or-nothing decision at that point. The only benefit of declaring early is that you can work out with NBA folks. But there is such a short window to do so that it's probably not really worth it.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    IF you don't have to pull out by the 10th, then why does anyone who may think about returning declare at all?
    I guess the real question is, what does "declaring" actually mean? It sounds to me like when you submit your paperwork to declare, you can then talk to NBA teams and gather information directly from them. So this will give you a better idea of where you stand. If you don't declare but do research on your own, the information is more limited. There may also be restrictions on whether or not you can work out for teams if you haven't declared, someone who is more in the know than me could hopefully clarify this.

    I agree that the deadlines are confusing and a little counter-intuitive. Would love for the NCAA and NBA to collaborate to make the process work better for everyone involved. I think they all have the same ultimate goal, which is to let the players gain an honest assessment of where they would be drafted and then be able to decide if they want to go.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Your last sentence is EXACTLY the argument I'm making. There is no good reason to declare early. If you're really on the fence, I think it makes the most sense to wait until April 28-29 to see who all is declared and get as much indirect information as possible and then make the all-or-nothing decision at that point.
    I understood (sort of..lol) what you were saying..but the intention of the rule by the NCAA is a lame excuse about academics (one of the last things the NCAA cares about) and the effect it has on teams and coaches...which is a valid reason.
    The reason for this change, in the NCAA's words is: “to help keep student-athletes focused on academics in the spring term and to give coaches a better idea of their roster for the coming year before the recruiting period is closed.
    http://www.draftexpress.com/article/...s-in-2012-3869
    So if you wait, then everyone waits including the coaches, and scholarships are held in the balance. That's why we are seeing TP and others wait until the 11th to announce their choices. It seems to me that while it would be to the player's benefit to wait as you've suggested, and as Cunningham is indeed doing, it skirts the intention of why the rule is even in place. At least regardless of what Mason does there is one player taking this path, and I think the NCAA will watch with interest in how it plays out.

    Edit...ahh..we have a whole thread devoted to this topic and I missed it. Thanks for the move.
    Mmmm, BBQ!

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    I understood (sort of..lol) what you were saying..but the intention of the rule by the NCAA is a lame excuse about academics (one of the last things the NCAA cares about) and the effect it has on teams and coaches...which is a valid reason.

    http://www.draftexpress.com/article/...s-in-2012-3869
    So if you wait, then everyone waits including the coaches, and scholarships are held in the balance. That's why we are seeing TP and others wait until the 11th to announce their choices. It seems to me that while it would be to the player's benefit to wait as you've suggested, and as Cunningham is indeed doing, it skirts the intention of why the rule is even in place. At least regardless of what Mason does there is one player taking this path, and I think the NCAA will watch with interest in how it plays out.

    Edit...ahh..we have a whole thread devoted to this topic and I missed it. Thanks for the move.
    Yes, it absolutely skirts the intention of the rule. It was a poorly-conceived rule by the NCAA, and folks like Bilas and other members of the media have said as such. The NCAA has no teeth in this situation, and as such really has no way of preventing kids from waiting until the NBA deadline to declare. And the approach by Cunningham (and I'm sure many others) is just going to illustrate that fact. The only way the NBA can really enforce such a deadline is if they punish schools for players declaring after the deadline (which won't happen and wouldn't be fair to anyone) or convince the NBA to move the deadline forward (which also probably won't happen).

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