Kendall Marshall Wrist Watch

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Well, true, based on every post by every physician [a total of 4 different physicians, by my count] in this thread, I do presume it's irresponsible. I've been told this, in addition, by a physician who has diagnosed this problem several times over the years. So I'm going by what appears to be expert opinion.

Indeed, at least one of the medical experts posted earlier that it would be hard to imagine that the surgical team would say it's ok for him to play, period. Period. The physician-posters here have in fact defended the professional integrity of the surgical team [and why wouldn't they?], and some posters seem to know them.

Fwiw, I doubt he plays v. Kansas. I'll guess he will play some in the FF, if Heels advance. And, absent a revision in the views of our physician-posters, in that case, I will myself think Roy is irresponsible.

As I posted earlier in this thread with, I hope, some precision, Roy has a tough decision to make, given the NC stakes and Marshall's certain desire to help his team win out. It would be edifying - hypothetically, at least - if anyone who thinks otherwise would provide a defense of Roy's allowing Marshall to play that shows why it is the responsible thing to do.

Given the other stakes, if you catch my drift.

We agree. I don't think he players either. Too soon.

Where we disagree is if it would make Roy irresponsible should he play him.
I say absolutely not. Roy is being very responsible. He would never want to put a kid at risk. No coach would, or at least should.

KM, parents, Roy are getting probably the best advice in the country about now on the health of that wrist.

It's the desiscion from KM and family that's difficult.
Does he want to play? Ask to play? Beg to play?
Can he manage the pain? Is he willing to take the risk of further injury?

Athletes play with risk all the time, everybody knows that.

If KM wants to play, Roy's decision is pretty simple, can he be effective?

And no way is Roy being irresponsible after all the information KM has received this week on "his" (KM's) decision.

[Newton_14]

Not to be overly argumentative, but, why do you think the UNC doc's word is "no risk at all"? I really doubt that could be true.

Regarding the surgery and bone healing: the screw does stabilize the bone somewhat, but not completely, hence the splint. I haven't seen the "new" splint, but assume it's a moldable/semirigid plastic splint. I was surprised to see a basic off the shelf version in the pictures over the past few days. To protect, a splint would have to be rigid enough to prevent torque on the healed bone and therefore greatly limit the function and mobility of the wrist; there is no splint that can do this completely under all circumstances. I don't know for sure but would certainly guess that the splint, along with the pain from the fracture and subsequent sugery, would hugely limit KM's ability if he were to play.

As far as the healing, we're talking at minimum 6 weeks before the bone is healed, no matter what type of brace is used or how many UNC fans write the # 5 on their wrist. That being said, there's really no day to day input needed from the orthopod. If a patient wanted to risk it, not much is going to change between the day of surgery and several weeks afterwards from the MD perspective. Whatever decision the committee of 5 come up with, I imagine the risks of playing were discussed in Chapel Hill a few days ago.

Thanks for the input, no offense taken, and not trying to be argumentative. I will try to find a link to a couple of statements that were made the past few days. Pretty sure they said "no longterm risk", but will research it to be sure. Just thought it odd the view of risk was so different.

[dukedoc]

Kendall will not play today vs Kansas, per CBS and others

[#1Duke]

Kendall will not play today vs Kansas, per CBS and others

No surprise there. He'll play next weekend IF the Heels are lucky enough to get by Kansas. BIG if.

[devildeac]

Rock
Chalk
Jayhawk

[oldnavy]

Kendall will not play today vs Kansas, per CBS and others

So, I guess he just couldn't do the things he would have needed to do to be effective. Makes sense, I never thought that he would be able to play this soon after the surgery, but I like his attitude of wanting to give it a full go... hope he gets well soon, but I will be pulling for KU today.

BTW, saw another Roy third person reference today. Picked up a N&O and an article about KU/Roy connection quotes Roy as saying, "Kansas gave Roy Williams a chance"...

Love it when Ol Roy goes third person on us.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

....

BTW, saw another Roy third person reference today. Picked up a N&O and an article about KU/Roy connection quotes Roy as saying, "Kansas gave Roy Williams a chance"...

Love it when Ol Roy goes third person on us.

We all love the harmless Roy third person stuff, it's pretty funny when he goes there.

[gumbomoop]

Where we disagree is if it would make Roy irresponsible should he play him. I say absolutely not. Roy is being very responsible. He would never want to put a kid at risk. No coach would, or at least should.

KM, parents, Roy are getting probably the best advice in the country about now on the health of that wrist.

Athletes play with risk all the time, everybody knows that.

If KM wants to play, Roy's decision is pretty simple, can he be effective?

And no way is Roy being irresponsible after all the information KM has received this week on "his" (KM's) decision.

I certainly agree that no coach should put a player at risk. Nor can I imagine any poster disagreeing with this statement.

Herewith I repeat for the third time that every post by every physician, 4 such posters, have stated unequivocally that (a) medical experts would not tell Roy it's ok for Marshall to play, if he can stand the pain, because of (2) the highly unusual nature of the scaphoid bone and its blood-source. Experts say the danger is unusual, possibly unique, in that reinjury can effectively cause the bone to die.

IMO, those - including a fair number of Duke fans in this thread - who say the only issue is whether Marshall can stand the pain and thus be effective have yet to confront this much larger issue. Thus, to the remark that Duke fans will simply use this to berate Roy, one of the physician posters replied:

My guess is the outcry would not be limited to Duke fans. There is just too much risk involved. Many people without particular loyalties to either shade of blue feel that way. Particularly those who understand the nuances of the injury.

The key word here is "nuances," and is related to blood supply and the danger of the death of the bone. [I will gladly accept correction or modification of my understanding of what dukedoc or other physician-posters mean by "nuances."]

I do not doubt that Marshall desperately wants to play. But I do not agree with you [and probably others, including Duke fans] who say Roy has a simple decision re whether Marshall can play effectively. I have posted twice previously that Roy is in a tricky spot, precisely because Marshall wants to play, and for all I know, his parents would lean toward supporting that desire. [Of course, I do not know this.]

I will concede that the following mini-discussion does raise the vague possibility of a medical opinion at variance with our physician-poster-experts:

It is very strange that so many non-UNC docs state it is a fragile/delicate bone, with only one blood vessel, and playing would be high risk, yet the word from the docs working on him is "no risk at all".

Not to be overly argumentative, but, why do you think the UNC doc's word is "no risk at all"? I really doubt that could be true.

As far as the healing, we're talking at minimum 6 weeks before the bone is healed, no matter what type of brace is used...

I will try to find a link to a couple of statements that were made the past few days. Pretty sure they said "no longterm risk", but will research it to be sure. Just thought it odd the view of risk was so different.

This is puzzling to me, and I suspect even more puzzling to the 4 physician-poster-experts, who have asserted that the diagnosis and treatment of this injury is well-established, and allows for no such physical exertion this soon, indeed, for weeks and possibly months. Thus, to the possibility that any actual medical experts have said either that there's "no risk at all" or "no longterm risk," I will simply guess that our physician posters would respond with some version of, "That's horse manure." Or perhaps, "Give me a break."

So, I personally - even if a minority of one - take a pretty hard, unbending position on Roy's responsibility. Absent medical counsel that would contradict, and presumably confound, our physician-posters, that Roy would play Marshall, or even allow him to "practice" if that means "testing" his wrist, would be an irresponsible act, a major mistake. Unforgivable, colloquially-speaking.

As Roy hasn't yet allowed Marshall to play, I'll presume him to be responsible.

[FellowTraveler]

Herewith I repeat for the third time that every post by every physician, 4 such posters, have stated unequivocally that (a) medical experts would not tell Roy it's ok for Marshall to play, if he can stand the pain, because of (2) the highly unusual nature of the scaphoid bone and its blood-source. Experts say the danger is unusual, possibly unique, in that reinjury can effectively cause the bone to die.

In that case, I'll repeat that those physicians have not examined Marshall. They are diagnosing him third hand via message board and talk radio. I am uncomfortable impugning the competence and integrity of the doctors who have examined Marshall based on the views of those who have not.

I'm a bit surprised that is such a minority viewpoint here, but since it apparently is, I won't repeat it again. Instead, I'll simply concur with Kedsy: Most of us would find many of the comments in this thread irritating, at least, if they were directed at Duke. Were I not a Duke fan, seeing a fanbase that boasts loudly of its program's classiness impugn a rival in ways it would denounce if Duke were the target is the kind of thing that might make me form an unfavorable impression of the Duke program, or at least of its fanbase.

[gumbomoop]

In that case, I'll repeat that those physicians have not examined Marshall. They are diagnosing him third hand via message board and talk radio. I am uncomfortable impugning the competence and integrity of the doctors who have examined Marshall based on the views of those who have not.

I'm a bit surprised that is such a minority viewpoint here. Most of us would find many of the comments in this thread irritating, at least, if they were directed at Duke.

If you go back through the thread, I think you'll find that our physician posters are not diagnosing him via message boards and talk radio. They are discussing an injury with a very certain diagnosis and treatment. Neither they nor I are "impugning" the integrity of the doctors who have examined Marshall. There is no evidence that the actual doctors involved have said that there's no or minimal risk. Indeed, it's that claim - i.e., that any medical expert has or would say there's little or no danger - that is disputed by our physician posters.

Fwiw, your viewpoint is probably not at all a minority viewpoint. And as far as I can recall, I am the sole poster who has come close - at least on this specific issue - to calling Roy irresponsible. And I have tried to state carefully that I would use that very hard word only if Roy allows Marshall to play.

If such hard charges were leveled at Duke, I'd probably consider whether they merited a response, and if yes, I might respond, carefully.

[cruxer]

Fwiw, your viewpoint is probably not at all a minority viewpoint. And as far as I can recall, I am the sole poster who has come close - at least on this specific issue - to calling Roy irresponsible. And I have tried to state carefully that I would use that very hard word only if Roy allows Marshall to play.

If such hard charges were leveled at Duke, I'd probably consider whether they merited a response, and if yes, I might respond, carefully.

I share your viewpoint that playing KM would make Ol Roy irresponsible. I've experienced this injury (broken scaphoid) and this treatment (surgical repair with a screw)--and what my doc, an orthopedic hand specialist, advised me is exactly what the 4 docs posted here and what you can find on the internet. No physical activity for *at least* 8-12 weeks (in my case it ended up being 4 months). It's hard to imagine KM is built differently and has a different prognosis from the norm.

I personally believe all the talk of KM possibly playing was simply a ploy to make potential opponents' scouting jobs just a little bit harder. Any advantage at this level must be taken, no matter how small. Though a die-hard Dukie, I have too much respect for Ol Roy and UNC to think otherwise. I'm sure KM and even his parents desperately want him to play and contribute, but they are relatively new to this level of spotlight. Roy and the UNC program are quite familiar with it. They've both won and lost at this level and know that life goes on regardless. Risking permanent limb damage that would alter KM's life in far greater ways than winning or losing this tournament isn't something they'd let him do.

-c

[dukedoc]

In that case, I'll repeat that those physicians have not examined Marshall.

I am uncomfortable impugning the competence and integrity of the doctors who have examined Marshall based on the views of those who have not.

I think this is a good point. There is an important difference between discussing a diagnosis in abstract terms and discussing the specific circumstances of a patient you know and have laid hands on. However, there are certain standards of care that do not typically yield to the idiosyncrasies of particular situations. When in doubt, physicians must, at the very least, adhere to those standards of care. Thus, if a physician diverges noticeably from what the vast majority of his/her colleagues in his/her local environment would do in a specific circumstance, that physician better have a very compelling rationale for doing so. For a scaphoid injury like Kendall’s, there is a certain standard of care which would preclude a return to high level play until well beyond the end of the tournament. If he returns, then there needs to be a very good rationale for doing so (that involves not only the medical details but also personal/family values, etc.).

My belief is that the risk is far too large in this circumstance. Beyond the pain he might experience and the risk of acute re-injury and short term issues, my main concern for Kendall is potential long term issues which might preclude his realizing his full potential in the NBA. That would be a tragedy. Now, a solid chance at an NCAA title may be enough to cause Kendall to gamble on this, but, in the end, it would definitely be a gamble.

In general physicians try not to second guess their colleagues. I do not mean to second guess anyone. If he plays, I will assume there is a very good rationale (that is exquisitely documented) underlying the decision. The only statement/detail that I could not tolerate was the notion that there is no risk of re-injury or new injury. Hypothetically, if Kendall fell the exact same way again (i.e. the exact fall that broke his fully healthy scaphoid), the resulting damage (to his unhealthy scaphoid with a screw in it) would likely be far more than what has already been suffered to this point. That might not happen, but it also, you know, might. There are also a variety of other perhaps less severe injuries that could happen all battering a weakened and only partially healed bone resulting in much more damage than they otherwise might.

[ArkieDukie]

I'll hand it to Stilman White: I think he has played to the best of his abilities. The unc faithful could not have asked any more of him. No one can say that he didn't leave it on the court.

[dukedoc]

I'll hand it to Stilman White: I think he has played to the best of his abilities. The unc faithful could not have asked any more of him. No one can say that he didn't leave it on the court.

I agree. He shouldn't have been shooting those huge shots at the end, but Kansas did a good job on defense forcing that circumstance. He should be proud.

I guess Kendall's scaphoid will have all the time it needs to heal now.

[devildeac]

I agree. He shouldn't have been shooting those huge shots at the end, but Kansas did a good job on defense forcing that circumstance. He should be proud.

I guess Kendall's scaphoid will have all the time it needs to heal now.

I hope it heels (sic) quickly now and in plenty of time for him to head to the nba with several of his teammates. Good luck.

[Newton_14]

I agree. He shouldn't have been shooting those huge shots at the end, but Kansas did a good job on defense forcing that circumstance. He should be proud.

I guess Kendall's scaphoid will have all the time it needs to heal now.

With that, will the doctors put the cast back on now so it can properly heal? Just curious. Thanks

[cruxer]

With that, will the doctors put the cast back on now so it can properly heal? Just curious. Thanks

That's just it, I'm pretty sure the brace is the normal procedure following the surgery. As long as you don't stress the wrist, the screw should let it heal and not having it cast means no rehab after it has. That's what was done for mine.

-c

[dukedoc]

With that, will the doctors put the cast back on now so it can properly heal? Just curious. Thanks

You know, I'm not sure. I will defer that to billy.

[#1Duke]

I'll hand it to Stilman White: I think he has played to the best of his abilities. The unc faithful could not have asked any more of him. No one can say that he didn't leave it on the court.

Yes, the kid played tough and did all he could do. My hats off to him and I'm happy that he stepped up... like I said, I'm a sucker for the underdog in such situations.
He can and should hold his head high.

[stixof96]

I'll hand it to Stilman White: I think he has played to the best of his abilities. The unc faithful could not have asked any more of him. No one can say that he didn't leave it on the court.

i completely agree....i thought he played great....N.C. just went cold down the stretch....