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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by ChillinDuke View Post
    You may very well be right. I haven't formed enough of an opinion on McAdoo to weigh in with any sort of conviction.

    I wouldn't say #30-35. I was thinking more of them being in the Top-20, meaning that they would be in the mix in Top-20 games, losing some handily and winning some, perhaps handily.

    In the end I agree that a McAdoo-led UNC team will be good, but I'm not sure they will challenge in all Top-20 games.
    .
    That's still kind of optimistic. Didn't UNC end up with a losing record against top-25 teams this past season?

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by ChillinDuke View Post
    To emphasize, UNC is losing 3 and maybe 4 lottery picks.

    ...
    In the 1999 draft, Duke lost the #1, #11, #13 and #14 overall picks .....

    ... the next year (2000), Duke won the ACC regular season, ACC Tourney, and made it to the sweet 16.

    [We did start 0-2, however.].

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    We've definitely had our back and forth on McAdoo, so I want to clarify my position. I think my predictions on McAdoo last year were spot on. Some people (not saying it was you, gumbo - I really don't remember who) were suggesting McAdoo was the best freshman entering the ACC and that he might even threaten for an All-ACC spot.
    Well, clarifying from my end, I'm one of the guilty, maybe the guiltiest, at hyping McAdoo.. I don't think I said he'd be 1st team all-ACC, but I did think him [and posted as much] the 2d-best frosh in the country, after Anthony Davis. But because the Heels were loaded, I didn't think he'd start. I thought he'd be an immediate impact player, and described him as "the next great Heel" [meaning 2012-'13]. He didn't make all-ACC frosh team, but he's better than everyone who did, save, possibly, Rivers. He was playing behind Zeller and Henson, of course.

    I looked pretty dumb [not for the very first time] re immediate impact, and probably should have posted midway through the season that CDu and other McAdoo-skeptics were right. But I don't recall having done so; probably lying low, and certainly puzzled as to why I messed up.

    Now, I think it's pretty clear he came on strong in last part of season, I guess because he got more time due to Henson's injury, and simply because it took him some time to figure things out. Charles Barkley became his biggest [.....] booster, saying repeatedly during the NCAAT that McAdoo was Heels' best player. I don't think he meant "actually playing the best," maybe something more like "most talent, best NBA prospect."

    I'm hurried, and see several posts on McAdoo and Heels next season, so I'll sign off and come back later. James Michael: take some of Harrison's money and run.

  4. #204
    Join Date
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    One question I always have with UNC teams is leadership. Who of the players coming back will step up into a leadership role? The obvious candidates are Strickland, and or McDonald since they have been around a little longer. Bullock?? Maybe, but I still remember his comments about Coach K and he doesn't impress me as someone who can hold others in check since he seems to have some trouble holding his own tounge.

    The 2009 UNC team had lots and lots of talent, but even more important they had a on the court leader in Hansbrough that willed his way to winning more often than not.

    The 2010 UNC team imploded mainly due to the void left by Hansbrough's leadership IMO. Of course they lost a lot of talent, but they still should have been much better than they played.

    I think having a leader on the court for UNC is very important... because, well you know what I would say about Ol Roy's ability to manage a game...

    Where will that type of fire come from next year for UNC, and for that matter Duke?

    Our obvious choices would be Curry, and or Kelly and certainly Mason if he comes back.... don't see Dawkins taking that role on personally.

  5. #205
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    Nov 2010
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by oldnavy View Post
    Our obvious choices would be Curry, and or Kelly and certainly Mason if he comes back.... don't see Dawkins taking that role on personally.
    I hope one or more of them take up the mantle of leadership, but I have my doubts than any of them will be fiery and vocal like the classic on-court leader we all conjure in our minds. Perhaps they have it in them and were simply muted because of other stronger personalities such as Austin, but I'm not so sure. Their personalities don't seem to include the vocal, confident, charismatic qualities that you'd like to see.

    I firmly believe you can lead by example, though, and so hopefully if they can really focus themselves and mount individual intensity from end to end, it'll trickle down to the youngins. Things can change dramatically year to year, so I'm hoping we'll see our seniors really rise to the challenge.

  6. #206
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
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    Philadelphia
    Quote Originally Posted by oldnavy View Post
    Where will that type of fire come from next year for UNC, and for that matter Duke?

    Our obvious choices would be Curry, and or Kelly and certainly Mason if he comes back.... don't see Dawkins taking that role on personally.
    Tyler Thornton?

  7. #207
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    The obvious choice

    Quote Originally Posted by dukedoc View Post
    I hope one or more of them take up the mantle of leadership, but I have my doubts than any of them will be fiery and vocal like the classic on-court leader we all conjure in our minds. Perhaps they have it in them and were simply muted because of other stronger personalities such as Austin, but I'm not so sure. Their personalities don't seem to include the vocal, confident, charismatic qualities that you'd like to see.

    I firmly believe you can lead by example, though, and so hopefully if they can really focus themselves and mount individual intensity from end to end, it'll trickle down to the youngins. Things can change dramatically year to year, so I'm hoping we'll see our seniors really rise to the challenge.
    Thornton is the obvious choice. The coaches and others who watched practice said so. I think the question is whether others join him.

    I certainly agree with leading by example, but I think Coach K uses the term to include on court communication.

  8. #208
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    Cary, NC
    A question for Heels fans to knash their teeth over: If Henson never got injured, and therefore McAdoo never got the additional playing time, would we even be having this discussion about him leaving?

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by gumbomoop View Post
    Well, clarifying from my end, I'm one of the guilty, maybe the guiltiest, at hyping McAdoo.. I don't think I said he'd be 1st team all-ACC, but I did think him [and posted as much] the 2d-best frosh in the country, after Anthony Davis. But because the Heels were loaded, I didn't think he'd start. I thought he'd be an immediate impact player, and described him as "the next great Heel" [meaning 2012-'13]. He didn't make all-ACC frosh team, but he's better than everyone who did, save, possibly, Rivers. He was playing behind Zeller and Henson, of course.

    I looked pretty dumb [not for the very first time] re immediate impact, and probably should have posted midway through the season that CDu and other McAdoo-skeptics were right. But I don't recall having done so; probably lying low, and certainly puzzled as to why I messed up.
    In re-reading, I hope my post didn't come across as calling you out or that I was trying to brag. I'm probably running a similar risk with Sulaimon this year as you with McAdoo, and I wildly missed on Paulus (I was drooling over his passing prowess in his McDonald's game) and McRoberts (oh the athleticism and skills!). I just wanted to clarify that I don't necessarily think you are wrong about McAdoo moving forward. He certainly has the size and athleticism to be a star next year if he returns. So I think we agree on the potential, just perhaps not on the likelihood of realization.

    Quote Originally Posted by gumbomoop View Post
    Now, I think it's pretty clear he came on strong in last part of season, I guess because he got more time due to Henson's injury, and simply because it took him some time to figure things out. Charles Barkley became his biggest [.....] booster, saying repeatedly during the NCAAT that McAdoo was Heels' best player. I don't think he meant "actually playing the best," maybe something more like "most talent, best NBA prospect."

    I'm hurried, and see several posts on McAdoo and Heels next season, so I'll sign off and come back later. James Michael: take some of Harrison's money and run.
    My guess is that Barkley meant prospect, because Zeller was pretty clearly their best player. I'm not sure I agree with Barkley, either, as I still haven't seen the actual offensive skills (the athleticism, sure, but not the skills) to play SF in the NBA. But, I've been wrong plenty of times before, and Barkley does at times show a good eye for talent.

    In any case, I most certainly agree with your last sentence. I don't want McAdoo to even have the chance to realize his potential in a UNC uniform.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Tyler Thornton?
    Not sure why I missed that very obvious choice... of course Tyler could be that player, in fact he probably has the leg up since he seems to have taken on that role already this year. TT seems to be the guy that does it both with defense, and vocally.

  11. #211
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    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    Thornton is the obvious choice. The coaches and others who watched practice said so. I think the question is whether others join him.

    I certainly agree with leading by example, but I think Coach K uses the term to include on court communication.
    I wholeheartedly agree that Thornton is our vocal leader. But, IMO, I don't see Thornton starting next year. I love his tenacity, his fight, and his ability to hit a clutch shot. But Cook is significantly more talented on the offensive end and really seems to know how to find players. Cook's defense needs to improve, but he wasn't 100% this year and next year I feel we'll see a whole different player. NOTE: This isn't a knock on Thornton but rather confidence in Cook's ability to be our best PG. It will be a battle of PGs come October and November, and I know that Thornton don't just hand over the starting spot. It's a luxury to have two competent PGs with completely different skill sets.

    So, this begs the question: can our most vocal leader be a sixth/seventh man? In practices, I certainly believe so. But during games, especially when the game is on the line? That's why I really like Curry as our vocal leader. He started doing some of it this year, but I feel that is something that Coach K is absolutely going to pound into him in the off-season.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    My guess is that Barkley meant prospect, because Zeller was pretty clearly their best player. I'm not sure I agree with Barkley, either, as I still haven't seen the actual offensive skills (the athleticism, sure, but not the skills) to play SF in the NBA. But, I've been wrong plenty of times before, and Barkley does at times show a good eye for talent.
    Barkley was definitely talking about "prospect", not the best player at UNC. He specifically thinks that McAdoo has the best body of the UNC players (i.e. the most pro-ready body).
    Reading and posting at DBR for over 19 years and loving every... well, almost every minute of it!

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Barkley was definitely talking about "prospect", not the best player at UNC. He specifically thinks that McAdoo has the best body of the UNC players (i.e. the most pro-ready body).
    I'd say he and Barnes both have "NBA bodies," so I agree with Barkley there. Zeller is a pretty solid NBA body too, though he can probably add another 15 lbs of muscle. But McAdoo absolutely has an NBA body. It's just a question of NBA skills.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by ChillinDuke View Post
    To emphasize, UNC is losing 3 and maybe 4 lottery picks.

    Not celebrating it as if this will make UNC NIT-bound. But they are losing a considerable amount more than Duke lost last year, and that is no slight to Nolan, Kyle, or Kyrie.

    - Chillin
    I think you're flat-out wrong. UNC's lottery picks are better NBA prospects than Kyle and Nolan. But Kyle and Nolan scored 4300 points in college, won a Final Four MVP, an ACC MVP, and Nolan was (as I recall) essentially last year's runner-up for NPOY. Kyle left with one of the best all-around statistical careers in Duke history, and last year, Nolan had one of the best seasons ever by a Duke player. Of course, they also won a national championship. In short, they are two of Duke's all-time greats. And Kyrie was an even better player than both of them.

    UNC loses a lot next year, but it's hard to imagine a team losing more than we did last year.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    I wholeheartedly agree that Thornton is our vocal leader. But, IMO, I don't see Thornton starting next year. I love his tenacity, his fight, and his ability to hit a clutch shot. But Cook is significantly more talented on the offensive end and really seems to know how to find players. Cook's defense needs to improve, but he wasn't 100% this year and next year I feel we'll see a whole different player. NOTE: This isn't a knock on Thornton but rather confidence in Cook's ability to be our best PG. It will be a battle of PGs come October and November, and I know that Thornton don't just hand over the starting spot. It's a luxury to have two competent PGs with completely different skill sets.

    So, this begs the question: can our most vocal leader be a sixth/seventh man? In practices, I certainly believe so. But during games, especially when the game is on the line?
    This I completely agree with. I love Tyler's leadership and intensity, but I honestly believe Quinn is our best option at the point because he has the natural abilities to do more offensively than either Tyler or Seth. If we could morph all three of those players into one PG we'd have an unstoppable player. But we can't do that so we'll have to see how it shakes out this off season.
    Reading and posting at DBR for over 19 years and loving every... well, almost every minute of it!

  16. #216
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    Feb 2007
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    Washington, D.C.

    Barkley and bodies

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Barkley was definitely talking about "prospect", not the best player at UNC. He specifically thinks that McAdoo has the best body of the UNC players (i.e. the most pro-ready body).
    Hard for me to take Barkley seriously on anything, but especially on bodies. Does he mean that McAdoo doesn't need to go on a Weight Watchers diet?

  17. #217
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    New York, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by phaedrus View Post
    I think you're flat-out wrong. UNC's lottery picks are better NBA prospects than Kyle and Nolan. But Kyle and Nolan scored 4300 points in college, won a Final Four MVP, an ACC MVP, and Nolan was (as I recall) essentially last year's runner-up for NPOY. Kyle left with one of the best all-around statistical careers in Duke history, and last year, Nolan had one of the best seasons ever by a Duke player. Of course, they also won a national championship. In short, they are two of Duke's all-time greats. And Kyrie was an even better player than both of them.

    UNC loses a lot next year, but it's hard to imagine a team losing more than we did last year.
    From a historical/statistical-based standpoint, sure. And I love Nolan, Kyle, and Kyrie just as much as the next Duke fan.

    From a talent standpoint, I would have to disagree. UNC is losing more. If for no other reason than it's 4 players to 3.

    Obviously if Barnes stayed four years, his numbers would stack up to Kyle or Nolan. He didn't stay, though. Doesn't mean they aren't losing a ton.

    - Chillin

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by phaedrus View Post
    I think you're flat-out wrong. UNC's lottery picks are better NBA prospects than Kyle and Nolan. But Kyle and Nolan scored 4300 points in college, won a Final Four MVP, an ACC MVP, and Nolan was (as I recall) essentially last year's runner-up for NPOY. Kyle left with one of the best all-around statistical careers in Duke history, and last year, Nolan had one of the best seasons ever by a Duke player. Of course, they also won a national championship. In short, they are two of Duke's all-time greats. And Kyrie was an even better player than both of them.

    UNC loses a lot next year, but it's hard to imagine a team losing more than we did last year.
    All good points, but it is important to remember that UNC is losing more players total. Four of the top five players in minutes per game last season are leaving, with McAdoo still having a chance to make it five of the top seven. UNC could be looking at replacing an entire rotation except for three returning players that play the same position, and two of them coming off serious knee injuries.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    All good points, but it is important to remember that UNC is losing more players total. Four of the top five players in minutes per game last season are leaving, with McAdoo still having a chance to make it five of the top seven. UNC could be looking at replacing an entire rotation except for three returning players that play the same position, and two of them coming off serious knee injuries.
    Just reading this post brought a smile to my face.

  20. #220
    You may well be right, but there is a long ways to go with early entries and undecided recruits. It's all relative. UNC may look down, but you can't know how bad it will be until you look at the competition.

    Big12 examples: At the end of 2011, Missouri was one of the last teams in the tournament, got spanked by Cincy in the 1st round by almost 20, lost their head coach and their 2nd best player to injury. CBB was so bad in 2012 that the same team went 30-5 and got a #2 seed, with no new players and no bench. This is arguably Bill Self's least talented team in his time at KU, and they are in the Final 4.

    I have not seen any early 2012-13 Top 25 lists, but I doubt there are any juggernauts.

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