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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Perhaps. If you skip '83 to '85 and '95 to '97, then there's an argument you should skip '07 to '09 as well (things fall apart plus two recovery seasons). In the last three years according to Reilly's definitions we've had 5 championships in 3 years, which obviously is a smaller sample size, but the ratio is in line with the other two golden ages. We'll have to wait and see, and this would be contingent on K coaching that long, but I think it's very possible the 9 year stretch from 2010 to 2018 will be in the same ballpark as the other two time periods.
    I very much hope you're right. We'll see.

  2. #242
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
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    Irvine, CA
    Quote Originally Posted by dcar1985 View Post
    Ok one domino has fallen....Austin is gone, I actually think that allows our offense to flow better next year and be more complex than just having Austin work off a high screen n roll....
    Let's start getting back to ball pressure and a more up-tempo game with Quinn and Sheed in the backcourt! I think the team has a higher ceiling with Quinn starting than Tyler. Let him play and learn/develop. As long as we keep improving, hopefully we'll peak late instead of early next year.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieinSoCal View Post
    Let's start getting back to ball pressure and a more up-tempo game with Quinn and Sheed in the backcourt! I think the team has a higher ceiling with Quinn starting than Tyler. Let him play and learn/develop. As long as we keep improving, hopefully we'll peak late instead of early next year.
    I don't think there's much question that Cook provides the higher ceiling. The question is just how close he'll get to that ceiling. Thornton has a lower floor due to his defense and steadiness offensively. Cook could either blossom into really great or struggle mightily.

    There are a LOT of interesting pieces for next year. Cook, Sulaimon, Gbinije, Curry, Dawkins, Murphy, Marshall. All have a great chance to make a big jump. Even a guy like Kelly (if he adds some post skills to his perimeter gifts) and Hairston (if he can refine his offensive game more) could make big jumps. There's lots of talent and we could go lots of different ways. All good, some potentially REALLY good.

  4. #244
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    I posted this in the Rivers/Mason thread but I think Austin leaving allows us some more clearly defined roles in the backcourt. I see Tyler and Cook splitting time at point (kind of like Avery and Wojo) with Seth playing off the ball. Rasheed will work his way into the rotation and play some at the 2 and some at the 3, or I guess it's possible he may start at the 3 over Dawkins.

    If Austin had stayed, we'd have the same problem as this year which is too many small guards and not enough minutes. I think we spent the majority of this season trying different combinations to see what worked. I don't think Seth is a natural point guard at all but Coach K was forced to try him there because of Austin. It got to the point where that just couldn't work, so we continued tinkering. Anyways, as much as I hate to lose Austin, the bright side is that perhaps a more consistent rotation will allow us to develop better as a team. That was part of what made the 2010 so great, we had a set rotation starting around January so everyone knew what to expect.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    I posted this in the Rivers/Mason thread but I think Austin leaving allows us some more clearly defined roles in the backcourt. I see Tyler and Cook splitting time at point (kind of like Avery and Wojo) with Seth playing off the ball. Rasheed will work his way into the rotation and play some at the 2 and some at the 3, or I guess it's possible he may start at the 3 over Dawkins.

    If Austin had stayed, we'd have the same problem as this year which is too many small guards and not enough minutes. I think we spent the majority of this season trying different combinations to see what worked. I don't think Seth is a natural point guard at all but Coach K was forced to try him there because of Austin. It got to the point where that just couldn't work, so we continued tinkering. Anyways, as much as I hate to lose Austin, the bright side is that perhaps a more consistent rotation will allow us to develop better as a team. That was part of what made the 2010 so great, we had a set rotation starting around January so everyone knew what to expect.
    I'm not sure how this changes things all that much, unless you anticipate more minutes from Gbinije and/or Murphy at the 3. Otherwise, we're replacing Rivers (6'4"/6'5") with more minutes from Sulaimon (6'4" ish) Dawkins (6'4"), and Cook/Thornton (6'2" and under). Losing the tallest guard we had and replacing them with smaller guards would seem to leave us in about the same situation. And in terms of certainty, it would seem even more uncertain than a situation where you know Curry and Rivers are playing 30+ mpg and it's just a battle for the other 50-60.

  6. #246
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I'm not sure how this changes things all that much, unless you anticipate more minutes from Gbinije and/or Murphy at the 3. Otherwise, we're replacing Rivers (6'4"/6'5") with more minutes from Sulaimon (6'4" ish) Dawkins (6'4"), and Cook/Thornton (6'2" and under). Losing the tallest guard we had and replacing them with smaller guards would seem to leave us in about the same situation. And in terms of certainty, it would seem even more uncertain than a situation where you know Curry and Rivers are playing 30+ mpg and it's just a battle for the other 50-60.
    With Rivers we have four guys for two positions. One of them (Rivers) would likely play 30+ minutes per game. I don't think any of these four guys will be playing minutes at the 3 next year with the additions of Rasheed and Murphy. Coach K certainly isn't going to sell Rivers on coming back by telling him he's going to play the 3. So with Rivers leaving, now we have three guys for two positions. I'm not saying it makes us better, but it does make it an easier decision as to who is playing where, and that has some benefit.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    With Rivers we have four guys for two positions. One of them (Rivers) would likely play 30+ minutes per game. I don't think any of these four guys will be playing minutes at the 3 next year with the additions of Rasheed and Murphy. Coach K certainly isn't going to sell Rivers on coming back by telling him he's going to play the 3. So with Rivers leaving, now we have three guys for two positions. I'm not saying it makes us better, but it does make it an easier decision as to who is playing where, and that has some benefit.
    I must be missing something. Even after Rivers leaves I still have us with four guys for two positions. Unless you consider Andre a 3. I know we play him there, but I still look at him as a SG.
    Reading and posting at DBR for over 20 years and loving every... well, almost every minute of it!

  8. #248
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    I'm looking at Cook, Thornton, and Curry as the guys who will play the two guard spots. I do see Dawkins as a 3, unless he can develop some sort of handle and gain some quickness on D.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    I'm looking at Cook, Thornton, and Curry as the guys who will play the two guard spots. I do see Dawkins as a 3, unless he can develop some sort of handle and gain some quickness on D.
    Okay. Andre is unusual in that he has both positives and negatives that can allow for him being labeled a 2 or a 3. I just feel like he doesn't bang enough or have enough slashing and low post skills to be labeled a 3. Plus, at 6-4 I think he's a tad short to be a true 3. But it's all in the way you look at it. Arguments can be made on both sides concerning him, imho.
    Reading and posting at DBR for over 20 years and loving every... well, almost every minute of it!

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by dcar1985 View Post
    Ok one domino has fallen....Austin is gone, I actually think that allows our offense to flow better next year and be more complex than just having Austin work off a high screen n roll....
    I agree totally. Austin doesn't seem to play the "college game" well. With him on the floor, K converted us to an NBA style offense, and we couldn't make that work well. Austin's game will translate to the NBA but he will be overmatched by more seasoned and more talented shooting guards for awhile. Wouldn't be surprised to see some success after 4 seasons or so, but may have to spend some NBDL time.

    Looking forward to a more team oriented approach next year. Would be interesting to see if Austin's departure actually encourages one or two recruits to select Duke who otherwise would go elsewhere.

  11. #251
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    ???

    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    I'm looking at Cook, Thornton, and Curry as the guys who will play the two guard spots. I do see Dawkins as a 3, unless he can develop some sort of handle and gain some quickness on D.
    What about Sulaimon?

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    What about Sulaimon?
    I think he's also a SG, so in my book that will give us five players for two positions. Now obviously we will be playing Andre and Rasheed at the "3" for portions of each game, but if I have to label guys I'm sticking to my guns and saying all five (Curry, Cook, Dawkins, Sulaimon and Thorton) are guards. Of course I'm hoping the "3" spot will be occupied primarily by someone named Shabazz next season.
    Reading and posting at DBR for over 20 years and loving every... well, almost every minute of it!

  13. #253
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Quote Originally Posted by diveonthefloor View Post
    With him on the floor, K converted us to an NBA style offense, and we couldn't make that work well.
    With Kelly in the lineup we were a top five in the nation offense this season, so I think we made it work plenty well.

    Defense is another question entirely, but I thought Austin was our best perimeter defender, so I wouldn't place our defensive woes on his shoulders, either.

    I believe we'll be able to overcome the loss of Austin (assuming it really happens) and be a really good team next season. But that's different from saying we'll be a better team without him, which is something I wouldn't say at all.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    What about Sulaimon?
    The long-term best of the bunch.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Thornton has a lower floor due to his defense and steadiness offensively.
    I know this has been beat to death, but TT is our PG. When I watch him play, I see a below average on ball defender (although he is very good off ball). However, as the PG, if he can't guard the primary ballhandler, we are already getting ourselves out of sorts. I see this as a major problem. I am hoping Cook's knee comes back stronger this offseason and he gets some lateral quickness. Watching Craft vs. the Cinci PG (whose name I can't remember) was a great display of on-ball defensive skill and tenacity - something this team sorely lacked all year.

    I also don't think there is much steadying about his offensive game. He doesn't create, he just brings the ball up and passes it. He made a few 3s this year, but its obvious that, as the season wore on, other teams identified him as the clear cut weakest link on offense and begged him to beat them (which he didnt - except Kansas)
    My Quick Smells Like French Toast.

  16. #256

    A comment

    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Our bigs improve, our offense just does not seem to develop low post players. None of our recent bits: zoubek, plumlee a and b, lance, or Kelly have developed a reliable low post move. The plumlees appeared to have the little hook, but it disappeared for games at a time. Despite their universal high ranking (except miles) they never became, or were never used as low post threats.

    As I mentioned, I think the reason is just as attributable to the reluctance to feed the post as it is to the play itself. But, there is no reason Mason and miles shouldn't dominate. Their footwork remains questionable and the seem to lack the go-to instinct inside. Watching the first two possessions of Duke v UNC at Cameron clearly showed what miles and Mason are capable of.
    As noted in this ESPN article, nowadays fewer teams have true post players (such as the Zellers), but then the bigs are expected to be more mobile and better outside shooters.

    http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bask...ege-basketball

    Unfortunately, we may have had the worst of both worlds since a number of our bigs were neither traditional centers nor postmodern big men. If Mason decides to leave, I wonder if Kelly will get some time at the 5 position. He's stronger now and is the same height as Marshall and weighs 230 vs. 225. We might be able to put together some lineups where four or even five players can hit the three (that's assuming that TT spends the entire summer shooting treys or that Cook is in the lineup). That could be interesting...

  17. #257
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Columbus OH 614
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    With Kelly in the lineup we were a top five in the nation offense this season, so I think we made it work plenty well.

    Defense is another question entirely, but I thought Austin was our best perimeter defender, so I wouldn't place our defensive woes on his shoulders, either.

    I believe we'll be able to overcome the loss of Austin (assuming it really happens) and be a really good team next season. But that's different from saying we'll be a better team without him, which is something I wouldn't say at all.
    Yea I think it hurts most defensively...It reminds me of Melo in Denver and New York for that matter on the offensive side though. How at times the offense would bog down and everyone would basically be reduced to watching him go iso against his defender. Even though he was clearly the best player on the team at times the offensive would seem to be much more fluid and affective w/o him....Denver's been better w/o him, so have the Knicks.

    I just think we'll be able to run a more complex offense and work more people into it next year without having someone who needs the ball in their hands as much as Austin does. Rather that turns into more W's is beyond me at this point especially with our questions on D.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by miramar View Post
    As noted in this ESPN article, nowadays fewer teams have true post players (such as the Zellers), but then the bigs are expected to be more mobile and better outside shooters.

    http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bask...ege-basketball

    Unfortunately, we may have had the worst of both worlds since a number of our bigs were neither traditional centers nor postmodern big men. If Mason decides to leave, I wonder if Kelly will get some time at the 5 position. He's stronger now and is the same height as Marshall and weighs 230 vs. 225. We might be able to put together some lineups where four or even five players can hit the three (that's assuming that TT spends the entire summer shooting treys or that Cook is in the lineup). That could be interesting...
    If Mason does leave, I won't be at all shocked to see a starting lineup of Thornton/Cook, Curry/Sulaimon, Dawkins/Gbinije, Murphy, Kelly. That team would have the type of defensive versatility that we haven't had the past two seasons (in which we were REALLY non-quick in the frontcourt).

    It would seem (based on recruiting rankings) that Murphy would likely be further along than Marshall. It'd be interesting, for sure.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieinSoCal View Post
    Let's start getting back to ball pressure and a more up-tempo game with Quinn and Sheed in the backcourt! I think the team has a higher ceiling with Quinn starting than Tyler. Let him play and learn/develop. As long as we keep improving, hopefully we'll peak late instead of early next year.
    I agree. Quinn has nice court vision and aggressiveness. Hopefully his knee will be 100%.

    One of the bright spots in the Lehigh game was in the first half when Quinn was dribbling the ball near the far sideline and suddenly whipped a pass to Miles who was lurking on the opposite low block and laid it in. I doubt that any of our other guards would have even seen that pass opportunity much less pull it off.

    If Quinn can show maturity and poise and good decision-making and be highly mentally focused on defense, I see him as our starting point guard and making us a much more versatile and dangerous team offensively.

  20. #260
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    If Mason does leave, I won't be at all shocked to see a starting lineup of Thornton/Cook, Curry/Sulaimon, Dawkins/Gbinije, Murphy, Kelly. That team would have the type of defensive versatility that we haven't had the past two seasons (in which we were REALLY non-quick in the frontcourt).

    It would seem (based on recruiting rankings) that Murphy would likely be further along than Marshall. It'd be interesting, for sure.
    I agree with you that may be what our lineup looks like, but man, I think a lot of teams would just cream us on the boards.

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