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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    If Mason and Miles couldn't contain guys like zeller, what makes you think they wouldn't go to town on ryan? He's not strong enough to guard the 5, and probably will never be. Z could get away with it becuase he was giant...and pretty strong...He's plenty fast....I'm not sure there's a more mobile 4 in the conference....
    Which is why I said we need to get a very high quality big man. Would open our offense up and tighten our defense up.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by #1Duke View Post
    Which is why I said we need to get a very high quality big man. Would open our offense up and tighten our defense up.
    Ah. good thing these types of players are readily available!
    9f

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    If Mason and Miles couldn't contain guys like zeller, what makes you think they wouldn't go to town on ryan? He's not strong enough to guard the 5, and probably will never be. Z could get away with it becuase he was giant...and pretty strong...He's plenty fast....I'm not sure there's a more mobile 4 in the conference....
    Strength would certainly be a concern, though it's not like Zeller outmuscled the Plumlees. He outskilled them.

    But I couldn't disagree more with the bolded part. I'd say that just about EVERY other team in the conference had a more mobile 4 than Kelly:

    BC: Anderson
    Clemson: Jennings
    FSU: White
    GT: Holsey
    Maryland: the only team for which your statement holds true
    Miami: Kadji, Jones
    NC State: Leslie
    UNC: Henson, McAdoo
    Va Tech: Finney-Smith
    UVa: Scott
    Wake: Mescheriakov

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Chill View Post
    Ryan Kelly will get punished down low on offense and defense. You ignore his lack of strength.
    I'm not ignoring anything. If you think physical strength is the overwhelming requirement for center play, I don't know what to tell you. There is more than one way to be excellent in the post. That's why Marcus Camby, Marc Gasol, and Luis Scola can all cash big checks. Some guys do it with power, others with reach and athleticism, others with skill, etc. But even if strength was determinant, I guarantee you senior year Ryan Kelly could match freshman year Kyle Singler. For that matter, how jacked is Tyler Zeller? He's stronger this year than last year, but he was excellent last year, too. Also, um, Laettner?

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by #1Duke View Post
    At this point in time all I can say is I would like to see us acquire a VERY good BIG.... no matter what else happens.
    Quote Originally Posted by #1Duke View Post
    When I am talking about acquiring a BIG I am talking about someone of the caliber of Zeller, Henson, Davis etc.
    This is a thread about next season. What "BIG" of that caliber do you think is available at this time in the recruiting process? And what do you mean by "acquiring"? You think we can make a trade with a Big East team, or do you think there's an aisle at Best Buy where we can purchase such a commodity?

    Like it or not, next season our center is going to be Mason (if he returns) or Ryan (if Mason doesn't return). Whichever one it is, I believe he will be 2nd team All-ACC, or maybe 1st team. Despite that, I also predict people on DBR will spend most of the season complaining about him.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    This is a thread about next season. What "BIG" of that caliber do you think is available at this time in the recruiting process? And what do you mean by "acquiring"? You think we can make a trade with a Big East team, or do you think there's an aisle at Best Buy where we can purchase such a commodity?

    Like it or not, next season our center is going to be Mason (if he returns) or Ryan (if Mason doesn't return). Whichever one it is, I believe he will be 2nd team All-ACC, or maybe 1st team. Despite that, I also predict people on DBR will spend most of the season complaining about him.
    Agreed. We aren't going to land some low post beast this late. We will either see Kelly and Marshall share the center spot or it will be a pair of Plumlees there. And at the PF spot it will be Murphy and Hairston or Kelly, Murphy, and Hairston. And it will be a darn good (and deep) frontcourt either way.

    Count me in the camp that thinks Kelly would thrive at the 5. It would accentuate some of his strengths (versatile scoring) and minimize some of his weaknesses (quickness). I think the concerns about his strength and rebounding are overstated - especially with another summer of strength training. At the 5, Kelly is a HUGE matchup nightmare offensively, and I think he would do just fine defensively.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Starter View Post
    Very, very true. I'm hoping Murphy can be this guy: I'm pretty sure I recall he was originally a top 15 recruit for 2012. With a year under his belt in this system, I hope he starts at small forward next year. Wasn't that a possibility for THIS year, until his concussion issues?
    Is the concussion the only reason for the redshirt? I, like you, REALLY hope that Murphy can be a big part of next year's team. His addition, if he can deliver, along with Sulaimon, could be a big change. I hated the line-up with a backcourt of 6'1", 6'4", 6'1". Got us killed on the boards. How good can Murphy be?

  8. #68
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    Columbus OH 614
    Quote Originally Posted by Starter View Post
    Very, very true. I'm hoping Murphy can be this guy: I'm pretty sure I recall he was originally a top 15 recruit for 2012. With a year under his belt in this system, I hope he starts at small forward next year. Wasn't that a possibility for THIS year, until his concussion issues?
    Top 40 once he reclassified though....I hope he's as good as everyone is pumping him up to be w/o seeing anything yet, I still have a hard time believing that he was on the verge of starting then the concussion cost him a week and he was all of sudden so far behind that everyone involved thought it was best he redshirt.

  9. #69
    The debate over Ryan at the 5 will be a moot point.

    MP3 will be a BEAST for us next year at the 5. I'm calling it now.

    If Mason comes back, then as with this year when we had a rotation of MP1, MP2, Ryan and Josh at the 4/5, next year we'll have the same rotation except with MP3 and without MP1. We'll have an end-of-game free throw shooting lineup with Ryan at the 5, but otherwise he and Josh will be 4s and there will be some lineups with MP3 at the 5 and MP2 at the 4 while Ryan is getting a blow.

    Murphy is an unknown at this point. Will he be a natural 3 or a natural 4?

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSchool View Post
    The debate over Ryan at the 5 will be a moot point.

    MP3 will be a BEAST for us next year at the 5. I'm calling it now.

    If Mason comes back, then as with this year when we had a rotation of MP1, MP2, Ryan and Josh at the 4/5, next year we'll have the same rotation except with MP3 and without MP1. We'll have an end-of-game free throw shooting lineup with Ryan at the 5, but otherwise he and Josh will be 4s and there will be some lineups with MP3 at the 5 and MP2 at the 4 while Ryan is getting a blow.

    Murphy is an unknown at this point. Will he be a natural 3 or a natural 4?
    What is your reasoning behind that? A kid who has never played a minute of college ball, and a wingspan of something like 6'8....that's like t-rex arms, unfortunately...he would have to be REALLY good to compensate for such short arms....and I don't see it...at least not in his first year playing in actual competition....
    9f

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by dcar1985 View Post
    Top 40 once he reclassified though....I hope he's as good as everyone is pumping him up to be w/o seeing anything yet, I still have a hard time believing that he was on the verge of starting then the concussion cost him a week and he was all of sudden so far behind that everyone involved thought it was best he redshirt.
    It's true, nobody really has any idea. I just know he was a really skilled high school player. But I agree, this is one of the bigger mysteries of the past season. Maybe he just fell behind, and by the time he started getting up to speed, the rotation was already pretty much set? It still seemed like we had a need for what he could presumably provide, however. But that need will still be there next season, so hopefully he's as advertised.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    What is your reasoning behind that? A kid who has never played a minute of college ball, and a wingspan of something like 6'8....that's like t-rex arms, unfortunately...he would have to be REALLY good to compensate for such short arms....and I don't see it...at least not in his first year playing in actual competition....
    Being 7ft tall helps compensate for short arms. Plus he won the HS dunk contest, so it seems he has no problem playing above the rim. I'm not saying he's gonna be a beast, but i think he'll at least be serviceable as the C if Mason goes pro. If Mason stays, we'll have one of the tallest frontcourts around: 7'0 (MP3), 6'11 (RK), 6'10 (MP2), plus Hairston at 6'8 and Murphy who will probably play a 3/4 type role is 6'8. Still, it would be great if we could get Tony Parker since both MP2 and RK will be gone after next year and we'll only have one legitimate big after that.

    Overall, i think it's a bit too early to speculate what this team will be capable of next year b/c a) our recruiting class may or may not be filled out completely yet, b) we don't know how many, if any, players will leave early and c) injuries can happen during the summer too and put guys behind the curve or put them in red-shirt category (obviously i'm hoping this happens to no one).
    In spite of that, i will say this: the ability to improve on passing the ball will determine how much this team improves. This year, IMO, what reduced our effectiveness was two-fold: a) our inability to pass the ball well, especially into the post and b) defend the perimeter. A) leads to B) in that opposition transition offense off of missed shots really hurt us defensively: improve offensive efficiency and defense ought to improve as well. Most of the games we lost this year was b/c we went cold from the floor (reduced O efficiency) and gave up transition points.
    If we get no additional recruits beyond Sulaimon, i think that Quinn's ability to deliver the ball will improve b/c he'll get more PT b/c he'll improve on D. Hopefully Seth and TT improve on their passing as well. I think that a matured (shh)G plus the additions of Murphy and Sulaimon to the wing will improve our perimeter D, honestly it's hard for it to get any worse.
    Last edited by DukieInBrasil; 03-18-2012 at 05:19 PM. Reason: didn't want to post a 2nd comment so just merged ideas

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    This is a thread about next season. What "BIG" of that caliber do you think is available at this time in the recruiting process? And what do you mean by "acquiring"? You think we can make a trade with a Big East team, or do you think there's an aisle at Best Buy where we can purchase such a commodity?

    Like it or not, next season our center is going to be Mason (if he returns) or Ryan (if Mason doesn't return). Whichever one it is, I believe he will be 2nd team All-ACC, or maybe 1st team. Despite that, I also predict people on DBR will spend most of the season complaining about him.
    Yes, I understand this is a thread about next season. The OP asked "I'm curious as to what you guys would like to see, what you think should happen, and what you think will happen."

    Which is why I am confused that a high quality big man has not been recruited/signed by now.
    Look at what we have. High rated players that we ARE recruiting are waiting to see if they'll be the SHOW.... waiting to see if Austin leaves so they can showcase THEIR talents already reflecting a mindset to me that does not suggest team play in the purest sense of the phrase.
    IMHO, teams that show unselfish play and a balanced attack are the more successful teams.

    I like Ryan very much but NOT as a center and I would not classify him as a POWER forward either.
    So, what are we doing?? It appears to me that we are going to be committed to the 3 point shot again next year.

    I asked the question....... Why didn't Coach K. go inside more often?? Did he feel that our bigs couldn't get it done?? Honestly, at times I thought I was watching an NBA team this year with guys standing around watching what someone else was going to do.

    I have no doubt that a strong big man in either the center or power forward position would make a HUGE difference in both our offense and defense.
    We have very good supporting players right now and I think a very good big is what we are missing.... it would open up our offense a great deal.

  14. #74
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    Being 7ft tall helps compensate for short arms. Plus he won the HS dunk contest, so it seems he has no problem playing above the rim. I'm not saying he's gonna be a beast, but i think he'll at least be serviceable as the C if Mason goes pro. If Mason stays, we'll have one of the tallest frontcourts around: 7'0 (MP3), 6'11 (RK), 6'10 (MP2), plus Hairston at 6'8 and Murphy who will probably play a 3/4 type role is 6'8. Still, it would be great if we could get Tony Parker since both MP2 and RK will be gone after next year and we'll only have one legitimate big after that.
    The HS dunk contest means diddly, unfortunately....mason nearly won his dunk contest...

    I think you're far underestimating the importance of length. Take a look at the last two national champions, Uconn and duke...both very tall, very long teams....especially in the frontcourt...

    Mason and miles wingspans are 6'11 and 7'0 respectively....so despite being half an inch taller than miles, he's effectively a few inches shorter...

    Being 7' tall also does not compensate for lateral reach, where he will be severely disadvantaged against other centers.

    He will have to compensate for that with skill...but that will take time...and I certainly don't expect it next season.
    9f

  15. #75
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    Nashville
    uh_no, I'm as big of a wingspan hawker as anyone, and I agree with you to an extent - he's going to be more like a 6'10 player, for all intents and purposes.

    However, I think he might surprise a little bit next year. The one advantage he's always had over his brothers is his approach to contact; he's not afraid of initiating it with his lower body, from what I've seen, but he's just always been too weak to really be effective. He also seems to execute post moves with a little more decisiveness and purpose, even if he's been very unpolished.

    However, he's put on a HUGE amount of muscle over the past year. I would be surprised if he's listed as under 240 next year, to be honest. I'm optimistic that he might be physically ready before I expected, thanks to the redshirt... mentally might be another story.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_Newton View Post
    uh_no, I'm as big of a wingspan hawker as anyone, and I agree with you to an extent - he's going to be more like a 6'10 player, for all intents and purposes.

    However, I think he might surprise a little bit next year. The one advantage he's always had over his brothers is his approach to contact; he's not afraid of initiating it with his lower body, from what I've seen, but he's just always been too weak to really be effective. He also seems to execute post moves with a little more decisiveness and purpose, even if he's been very unpolished.

    However, he's put on a HUGE amount of muscle over the past year. I would be surprised if he's listed as under 240 next year, to be honest. I'm optimistic that he might be physically ready before I expected, thanks to the redshirt... mentally might be another story.
    Thanks, That's really good info! One thing's for certain, It will be cool to watch him and see how he is similar/different from his brothers. And that's exactly what I mean by he needs to be more skilled. He's going to be good because, as you say, he deals with contact, he has a strong set of post moves, he doesn't get in foul trouble. It won't be because he is 7' tall.
    9f

  17. #77
    Disclaimer: I enjoyed this season, and like our guys.

    But:

    This year we had too many perimeter guys with comparable arguments for playing time, and the team's whole ended up being less than the sum of its parts. We were impressively deep, but somehow we could never find a combination of five guys who could consistently play like a Duke starting 5. Especially on defense.

    And this problem could be worse next year.

    Let's assume Austin stays. He'll be that guy that K wants to play nearly 40 minutes. The rest of our perimeter minutes will be divided between Curry, Cook, Thornton, Sulaimon, Dawkins, Murphy, and Gbinije. That's way too many guys of comparable ability and competing strengths fighting for 80 minutes of playing time.

    (should Austin leave, that opens things up, but leaves a bigger problem: no Austin!)

    And I fear that this logjam could undermine the team's leadership structure. Championship caliber teams need a hierarchy that's clear and consistent. Ideally your older guys are amongst your best guys, and have at the very least locked down their spots in the rotation.

    Seth is a skilled offensive player, but he's a slow and undersized defender.

    Andre, my favorite player, is the riddle of the century. 'Nuff said. Shades of Ricky Price (another favorite) in his regression.

    Based on intangibles, hustle and gravitas, Tyler is ready for a big role, but being able to dribble the ball up and pass the ball around the perimeter is not the same thing as running the point, and he absolutely must improve his shooting (I think he will).

    That's too many issues with our rising upperclassmen. And these basketball issues are not entirely disconnected from leadership/ team management issues.

    Which leads us to the lower classmen. Coach K will give them whatever minutes they earn in practice.

    If you believe point guards are born and not made, Quinn Cook is the former: he's got great court vision, and a good spider sense for how much space he has/needs, especially when adjusting shots to shoot over bigger guys, etc. BUT, and I don't think this gets enough recognition: he's even smaller than you think. He looks tiny out there, and though quicker than Seth, is against a lot of teams a problem to be hidden on defense.

    Murphy/Gbinije: With height and defense being pressing issues, at least one of these guys has a chance to earn a spot in the rotation, and pose a serious threat to minutes to all the guys mentioned above. I won't speculate on how good/ready they'll be (we don't even know what to make of some of the guys we've watched all season), but the opportunity is there. I think back to someone like Brian Davis, whose offensive skills were inferior to many of the guys mentioned above, but who'd be starting for this team based on tenacity, size, and athleticism.

    Sulaimon: If he's a stud from the get go, that's good but we face a situation in which some of the guys mentioned above will fall out of the rotation entirely. I have no problem with that if that's what's meant to be, but it could put further strain on there being a clear hierarchy within the team. If Sulaimon is good but needing work, well, then he's a lot like the other six non-Rivers perimeter guys.

    To summarize: there's a shocking amount of uncertainty about which of these guys should be starting and getting the lion's share of the minutes, and even who should be getting the secondary minutes. I hope for the best, but the circumstances do not seem conducive to a solid team identity and understanding of roles and expectations.

    At the 4 & 5 spots, I feel like we're in better shape, at least in terms of expectations. Should Mason return, he and Kelly will be our main bigs, and Hairston and Marshall will play supporting roles. If Mason goes, there will be pressure on Marshall to become a rebounding force from day one.
    Last edited by Mcluhan; 03-18-2012 at 05:48 PM.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcluhan View Post

    To summarize: there's a shocking amount of uncertainty about which of these guys should be starting and getting the lion's share of the minutes, and even who should be getting the secondary minutes. I hope for the best, but the circumstances do not seem conducive to a solid team identity and understanding of roles and expectations.
    I think you're exactly right.

    I think next year coming into camp, the tone needs to be, there are 5 starting spots, and anyone on the team can have them. Nobody is guaranteed to be a starter....not seth, not andre, not austin, not mason, not tyler, not quinn, not ryan....it will probably be made abundantly clear that if you expect to be starting, you better darn well play tough defense.

    It'll be a dogfight for starting spots next year....outgoing seniors who want the PT, newcomers who want to prove they belong....should be fun.
    9f

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    What is your reasoning behind that? A kid who has never played a minute of college ball, and a wingspan of something like 6'8....that's like t-rex arms, unfortunately...he would have to be REALLY good to compensate for such short arms....and I don't see it...at least not in his first year playing in actual competition....
    His arms don't look any different than his brothers' arms, except a lot less muscle. T-Rex arms? Uh, no.

    tumblr_luba2fZOLV1qcl760o1_500.jpg

    • Marshall is just as athletic as his brothers and is even taller
    • He's had a year already in K's system and learning from his older brothers
    • He seems like a bright kid, I'm counting on him to cut down on the silly fouls MP1 and MP2 were prone to early in their careers
    • I expect Cook to get a LOT of minutes at point next year, which will directly benefit the 5 position
    • He is reputed to be even more of a true 5 than either of his older brothers
    • He seems to get on great with his teammates which could give us better chemistry and trust on the court between the guards and bigs which we desperately needed this year.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSchool View Post
    His arms don't look any different than his brothers' arms, except a lot less muscle. T-Rex arms? Uh, no.
    Photos are deceptive

    his wingspan is 4" shorter than miles' and 3" shorter than masons.

    When your wingspan is 4" less than your height, that is certainly bordering on t-rex proportions.....the opposite being gorilla proportions

    and this isn't a slam on Marshall, its just his build...it is what it is...no more no less.
    9f

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