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  1. #521
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Quote Originally Posted by ncexnyc View Post
    I believe he takes way too much heat because our friends down the road had that other center.
    Well, yeah. McBobs goes pro after 2, and Hanstravel stays for 4?!?! Not fair, not fair at all. The both of them can burn.

  2. #522
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by wallyman View Post
    Best of luck to Austin, whichever way he goes, but he played hard every minute and for much of the year was the only guy who had it and brought it every game.
    In every interview, Austin has had incredibly positive things to say about Duke, the coaching staff, Coach K, and the fans. He credits the coaches for his development as a player, and even when he was benched for a game he came back and praised Coach K for the tough love. Also, don't forget that before The Shot happened Austin had played an incredible game - something like 29 points when no one else could get anything going. It's kind of hard to believe how much negativity is being thrown his way, especially when it's not 100% certain that he's leaving.

    I remember when Coach Cutcliffe interviewed for the Tennessee job, this board lit up with people calling him a fraud and a liar for leaving. Austin is still one of our own, whether or not he leaves.

  3. #523

    Smile Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    In every interview, Austin has had incredibly positive things to say about Duke, the coaching staff, Coach K, and the fans. He credits the coaches for his development as a player, and even when he was benched for a game he came back and praised Coach K for the tough love. Also, don't forget that before The Shot happened Austin had played an incredible game - something like 29 points when no one else could get anything going. It's kind of hard to believe how much negativity is being thrown his way, especially when it's not 100% certain that he's leaving.

    I remember when Coach Cutcliffe interviewed for the Tennessee job, this board lit up with people calling him a fraud and a liar for leaving. Austin is still one of our own, whether or not he leaves.
    This is very well said and I think expresses the opinion of most regular readers of this board. I do read this thread looking for any information about Mason and go away happy that there is none so far. All the best to Austin if he leaves, he far exceeded my expectations, following the early games in China. His development was remarkable, his effort was consistent, and he was never the self centered hothead the media and the Tarheel mob made him out to be. A classy kid with great talent who represented well.

    Oh and who the heck is 'Andrew Dawkins?'
    http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/...cons/icon7.png

  4. #524
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    raleigh
    look at it this way...if austin goes to the nba and starts tearing it up, all the "duke-doesn't-put-pros-in-the-nba" folks can just help themselves to another hot cup of shut up...
    "One POSSIBLE future. From your point of view... I don't know tech stuff.".... Kyle Reese

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by moonpie23 View Post
    look at it this way...if austin goes to the nba and starts tearing it up, all the "duke-doesn't-put-pros-in-the-nba" folks can just help themselves to another hot cup of shut up...
    Kyrie has that cup full all day. Kyrie is the best Duke pro since Grant Hill in his prime. He may even pass him in time.

  6. #526
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    raleigh
    kyrie SERVES that cup every game...
    "One POSSIBLE future. From your point of view... I don't know tech stuff.".... Kyle Reese

  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by moonpie23 View Post
    look at it this way...if austin goes to the nba and starts tearing it up, all the "duke-doesn't-put-pros-in-the-nba" folks can just help themselves to another hot cup of shut up...
    I would rather that Austin tear it up in a Duke uniform than go to the NBA so we can say " we put a pro in the NBA". He's not going to tear up anything in the NBA for several years. No matter what school he attended, he would have gone to the NBA... I mean it wasn't like he developed any different skills/skills set in his one year at Duke. I think one or two more years under Coach K. and he would have been better prepared to enter the NBA and perhaps then he would have been ready to tear it up. I think his biggest problem is maturity and that comes with time and good coaching ... he would have received both at Duke.

  8. #528
    I really don't understand all the Austin bashing on this board right now. He led the team in scoring (and led all freshmen in scoring, and was 8th in the conference overall) and was rookie of the year and first-team All-ACC. If you want to compare him to some of our recent shooting guards, he scored more points, shot at a higher percentage, tallied more assists, and pulled in more rebounds than both freshman-year JJ Reddick and Jon Scheyer. What more do you all want from the guy? That isn't a rhetorical question - I seriously want to know what some of you guys think Austin "should" have done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gthoma2a View Post
    Kyrie has that cup full all day. Kyrie is the best Duke pro since Grant Hill in his prime. He may even pass him in time.
    Meh, the haters will say that Kyrie doesn't count since he only played 11 games, even if we all know better.

  9. #529
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    boston, ma
    Quote Originally Posted by #1Duke View Post
    I would rather that Austin tear it up in a Duke uniform than go to the NBA so we can say " we put a pro in the NBA". He's not going to tear up anything in the NBA for several years. No matter what school he attended, he would have gone to the NBA... I mean it wasn't like he developed any different skills/skills set in his one year at Duke. I think one or two more years under Coach K. and he would have been better prepared to enter the NBA and perhaps then he would have been ready to tear it up. I think his biggest problem is maturity and that comes with time and good coaching ... he would have received both at Duke.
    I've been seeing this everywhere. What evidence do you have to show he is immature? Do you happen to think "immature" means "cares more about winning than anyone else on the team and will do anything to win?" Or perhaps you think "immature" means "damn none of the upperclassmen on this team are stepping up to lead, guess I'm gonna have to do it."

    Sheesh, Austin has had one of the most impressive freshman seasons in Duke history AND has demonstrated remarkable improvement over the season in passing and defense. The kid didn't come in with the rep of being a PG; he's a pure SG and is 2nd on the team in assists by 0.3 apg. Oh yeah, he's also our best perimeter defender too. I don't see how anyone can criticize him of being immature when all around him there's evidence of his teammates loafing on defense and barely improving if not regressing over the season.

    Yes, Austin is physically immature and should stay to bulk up a bit and get stronger as well as work on his passing. It is clear that if he leaves, Duke will be worse off.

  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by duke09hms View Post
    I've been seeing this everywhere. What evidence do you have to show he is immature? Do you happen to think "immature" means "cares more about winning than anyone else on the team and will do anything to win?" Or perhaps you think "immature" means "damn none of the upperclassmen on this team are stepping up to lead, guess I'm gonna have to do it."

    Sheesh, Austin has had one of the most impressive freshman seasons in Duke history AND has demonstrated remarkable improvement over the season in passing and defense. The kid didn't come in with the rep of being a PG; he's a pure SG and is 2nd on the team in assists by 0.3 apg. Oh yeah, he's also our best perimeter defender too. I don't see how anyone can criticize him of being immature when all around him there's evidence of his teammates loafing on defense and barely improving if not regressing over the season.

    Yes, Austin is physically immature and should stay to bulk up a bit and get stronger as well as work on his passing. It is clear that if he leaves, Duke will be worse off.

    Well, as you noted, I think he needs to mature physically. He'll be facing big, quick, aggressive defense in the NBA... every game.
    I think he needs to mature mentally also. As at least a couple of posters here ( in various threads ) have said, he often times seemed angry, upset, etc. during the games and I agree with that observation. More than a few times he took the bench waving his arms and acting like he was pleading a case.
    AND, my response was to him " tearing it up in the NBA" and I doubt that happens for several years until he reaches that level of physical and mental maturity. It's often beneficial to put on your game face, to play aggressive etc. but what I saw I liken more to whining than a tough mindset.
    So, to answer your question specifically, I think mental maturity involves remaining cool most of the time, not whining, remaining positive with your teammates and being the best YOU can be without drama or fanfare.

  11. #531
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    boston, ma
    Quote Originally Posted by #1Duke View Post
    Well, as you noted, I think he needs to mature physically. He'll be facing big, quick, aggressive defense in the NBA... every game.
    I think he needs to mature mentally also. As at least a couple of posters here ( in various threads ) have said, he often times seemed angry, upset, etc. during the games and I agree with that observation. More than a few times he took the bench waving his arms and acting like he was pleading a case.
    AND, my response was to him " tearing it up in the NBA" and I doubt that happens for several years until he reaches that level of physical and mental maturity. It's often beneficial to put on your game face, to play aggressive etc. but what I saw I liken more to whining than a tough mindset.
    So, to answer your question specifically, I think mental maturity involves remaining cool most of the time, not whining, remaining positive with your teammates and being the best YOU can be without drama or fanfare.
    So essentially you don't like his facial emotions based on your subjective judgments. ok, well I'm talking about on-court performance, not "I don't like his expression." Honestly, I think a lot of the dislike towards Austin from our own fans is because he's the first Duke player in a long time that actually showed some anger and swagger (finally!). I actually welcome that because as long as it doesn't negatively impact his play, I'm tired of teams thinking they can punk us without a fight.

    Besides, I'd be angry and upset just like Austin if my team were playing sloppy like we did for most of the year. In fact, besides saying "Duke just needs better players," our own Jason Williams on FirstTake said "Austin wants to win so bad that he might go one and done simply because no one else on the team is like him in wanting to get better and wake up at 2am to put up 300 shots."
    Last edited by duke09hms; 03-25-2012 at 02:01 AM.

  12. #532
    Quote Originally Posted by duke09hms View Post
    So essentially you don't like his facial emotions based on your subjective judgments. ok
    Hell I'd be angry and upset if my team were playing sloppy like we did for most of the year.
    NO, not just his facial expressions, his entire body language at times and his whining... I didn't care for it.
    A player acting angry and upset ABOUT HIS TEAMS PLAY does nothing to instill a team spirit and at times can be detrimental to team play.
    In fact, IMHO, I think part of the problem with our team this year was that there was not a well defined accepted leader.... I really believe that... and that's the way it appeared to me.

    You can keep the swagger, it's little more than show in most cases. Anger, when well directed as in not at your teammates, can be a good thing as long as it doesn't interfere with the overall mindset of the team.
    Please, let's keep the swagger in the NBA.

  13. #533
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    boston, ma
    Quote Originally Posted by #1Duke View Post
    NO, not just his facial expressions, his entire body language at times and his whining... I didn't care for it.
    A player acting angry and upset ABOUT HIS TEAMS PLAY does nothing to instill a team spirit and at times can be detrimental to team play.
    In fact, IMHO, I think part of the problem with our team this year was that there was not a well defined accepted leader.... I really believe that... and that's the way it appeared to me.

    You can keep the swagger, it's little more than show in most cases. Anger, when well directed as in not at your teammates, can be a good thing as long as it doesn't interfere with the overall mindset of the team.
    Please, let's keep the swagger in the NBA.
    Clearly there was no accepted leader, none of the upperclassmen stepped up, and so Austin had to step in to fill that leadership void before he was ready. Who else would take charge of the huddle and lead in BOTH words and actions. Austin came the closest but as a freshman inevitably fell short of being that team leader. Failure of leadership falls on this year's JR and SR class, and I think can be seen in K's resigned attitude and relative dejection in many of the post-game press conferences.

  14. #534
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by moonpie23 View Post
    look at it this way...if austin goes to the nba and starts tearing it up, all the "duke-doesn't-put-pros-in-the-nba" folks can just help themselves to another hot cup of shut up...
    I wonder if it's possible to parse through all of the posts on this board that have expertly addressed each of the key "I hate Duke" talking points that come up over and over again and create a summary of why each of them is false. "No Dukies in the NBA," "no quality big men...ever," "a short guard can't coach big men," etc etc etc. I feel like a huge amount of our collective energy is spent debating these claims (over and over and over again), and it's ultimately a waste of time. There are grains of truth to each of them, no doubt, but at the end of the day we know who we are at Duke and most of those claims are crafted specifically to tear us down rather than to spark constructive conversation.

    [now to diverge slightly from your initial comment]
    Many people hate our program and it's very easy to feel like the kid in middle school who got teased a lot. Whenever you trip in the cafeteria or wear the wrong colored socks or forget to comb your hair you feel an amplified form of badness because you know that it's not only what you've done but what others will see and say about it. You can stoically proceed day by day trying to ignore and avoid. However, at some point, perhaps after your team loses particularly badly, you start to wonder just a little bit whether what they are saying is true. Once you open that door, and Duke loses again, you start to question things you've known to be true for a while and now you're lost.

    I'm not saying Duke is perfect by any means. We need to be realistic but constantly hopeful. I just think that a lot of the angst and the "let's throw him under the bus" attitude that comes after losses stems not just from the disappointment of losing, but from the amplified negativity we experience by being the hated blueblood who tripped in the cafeteria. It's easy for folks on this and other boards to panic over blips in the radar partly because they've been made vulnerable and perhaps even paranoid by the taunts of other fan bases. In that state it's hard to remember to be constantly thankful for what we do have and what our great program has done. In addition to defending ourselves as needed from attacks, we need to regularly celebrate what we know to be true and positive about our program, and there are too many things in that category to even begin to list them.

  15. #535

    Hating ???

    I don't think anybody is hated, especially not Rivers. He is just a kid. I think there are a lot of Duke fans that preferr to have a guy like Craft ( Ohio State ) out there who has developed in the program and now can really contribute in all areas instead of a new kid every year that is just passing through. I personally don't care for these one and done players, regardless of who they are, but, I certainly have nothing personal against them. I want those kids who walk in the door with the desire to hang their jersey from the rafters in Cameron because I believe they offer the most in the long run to the team. There is an old saying, everything that glitters ain't gold. It kinda fits here.

  16. #536
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by stixof96 View Post
    I don't think anybody is hated, especially not Rivers. He is just a kid. I think there are a lot of Duke fans that preferr to have a guy like Craft ( Ohio State ) out there who has developed in the program and now can really contribute in all areas instead of a new kid every year that is just passing through. I personally don't care for these one and done players, regardless of who they are, but, I certainly have nothing personal against them. I want those kids who walk in the door with the desire to hang their jersey from the rafters in Cameron because I believe they offer the most in the long run to the team. There is an old saying, everything that glitters ain't gold. It kinda fits here.
    Sorry, if you were addressing my previous post, I was referring to hate directed at our program from other fan bases not from within. I do think some other fan bases truly "hate" our team and specific players, although I acknowledge hate is a strong term.

    I don't think we hate ourselves, but I do think some fans can be hateful in certain ways towards particular players, particularly when things aren't going well.

  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by dukedoc View Post
    Sorry, if you were addressing my previous post, I was referring to hate directed at our program from other fan bases not from within. I do think some other fan bases truly "hate" our team and specific players, although I acknowledge hate is a strong term.

    I don't think we hate ourselves, but I do think some fans can be hateful in certain ways towards particular players, particularly when things aren't going well.
    Hate is not too strong of a word when it comes to others feelings about Duke. It is pure hatred sparked mostly by envy and also the feeling that Duke fans are snooty which is sometimes well deserved.

  18. #538
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Quote Originally Posted by dukedoc View Post
    Sorry, if you were addressing my previous post, I was referring to hate directed at our program from other fan bases not from within. I do think some fans truly "hate" our team and specific players, although hate is a strong term.

    I don't think we hate ourselves, but I do think some fans can be hateful in certain ways towards particular players, particularly when things aren't going well.
    I'll second that. The threads I've seen about some of our players are really a bit out there.

    I do not dislike Austin Rivers. He's a great player who has represented Duke (and himself) well. It sends a good message to have such articulate young men in front of the TV cameras, especially when they've got game like Austin does. He has grown as a player over the course of the season and would continue to do so if he chooses to stay. Same with Mason.

    It appears to me that the team chemistry was disrupted a bit this year. It's easy to blame it on Austin (and I've been somewhat guilty of that myself), but the issue is likely a bit more complex than that. Sometimes you just get a mix of personalities that doesn't work. While teaching, I noted that every class has a different attitude/personality, determined by the combination of people in the group. For example, I can think of one class in particular that had a vocal conspiracy theorist as the "leader." He managed to persuade most of his classmates that my colleagues and I were trying to fail all of them, which was about as far from the truth as you could get. As a result, it was very difficult to persuade this particular class to buy into the changes we were trying to make (changing exam questions to be more like questions they would be seeing on USMLE exams).

    My speculation is that one or more players may have felt a bit jealous of Austin and felt that he was taking away from their importance to the team. This could have caused a change in their attitude, resulting in the poor communication on the court that the players themselves admitted to. This is not a knock on anyone; it's just normal human nature and it happens. It's not really anyone's fault, it's just an issue with how the different members of the team adapted to their roles (or perceived roles) as a result of a young, talented guy being added to the mix. A different mix of personalities could've been absolutely dominant on the court and might still be alive in the tourney - or, at least, they might have been alive a little longer. For Exhibit A, I present to you the Duke women's team. The strongest player on the team is a freshman, and they're playing some killer basketball right now. If you're not watching them, you're really missing out. Now, imagine where they'd be right now if someone was resentful of Elizabeth Williams, vocally or not, and their attitude affected team chemistry. They'd probably be in Durham rather than in Fresno, playing Stanford for a trip to the Final Four.

  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by ncexnyc View Post
    Sorry, but you're way off base calling McRoberts a bust. Here are his stats for two years at Duke.

    http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/pla...josh-mcroberts

    Josh had a very good all around game and had he been surrounded by a better supporting cast things would have been a lot different.
    IMO bust isn't the right word. He had talent, no doubt.

    But if you don't think the general consensus was that we had chemistry problems and Josh was at the center of it, then I would guess it's impossible to persuade you that we have we have ever had chemistry problems - or that we ever will. And he played with a lot of good players - JJ, Shelden, Jon, DeMarcus, Gerald, Lance, and Paulus at his peak. Right there you have 4 guys in the pros, Demarcus got a cup of coffee in the NBA, and Jon probably would have eventually made it had it not been for that freak and severe eye injury.

    JMO.

  20. #540
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO

    2007, Trying to Forget

    Quote Originally Posted by cspan37421 View Post
    IMO bust isn't the right word. He had talent, no doubt.

    But if you don't think the general consensus was that we had chemistry problems and Josh was at the center of it, then I would guess it's impossible to persuade you that we have we have ever had chemistry problems - or that we ever will. And he played with a lot of good players - JJ, Shelden, Jon, DeMarcus, Gerald, Lance, and Paulus at his peak. Right there you have 4 guys in the pros, Demarcus got a cup of coffee in the NBA, and Jon probably would have eventually made it had it not been for that freak and severe eye injury.

    JMO.
    Fortunately, I have repressed most of my memories of the 2007 team, the only Duke team since 1996 that didn't finish ranked in the AP Top 25.

    Nevertheless, an examination of the roster (recruited players only) would seem to be helpful:

    Code:
    Name	Pos.	Class
    Jamal Boykin	F	So.
    Gerald Henderson	G	Fr.
    Dave McClure	F	So.
    Josh McRoberts	F	So.
    DeMarcus Nelson	G	Jr.
    Greg Paulus	G	So.
    Martynas Pocius	G	So.
    Jon Scheyer	G	Fr.
    Lance Thomas	F	Fr.
    Brian Zoubek	C	Fr.
    This was the youngest Coach K team in his tenure at Duke. Only DeMarcus was an upperclassman (a junior, at that). Of the players you mentioned, Jon, Gerald, and Lance (plus Z) were freshmen. It would seem reasonable to conclude that "chemistry problems" were "maturity problems." And it seems far-fetched to single out Josh for blame, who, although only a sophomore, was 2nd team All-ACC.

    There is, however, an "economy of blame," when one can pin 2007's deficiencies on Josh, as well as the deficiencies in 2008 and 2009 after he left (and Hansbrough stayed).

    sagegrouse

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