Mason Plumlee Returning to Duke for Senior Season

[FerryFor50]

The difference is that CL was the understudy to Ferry his frosh year. Austin came in and supplanted older players. Can't argue with his PT, but his attitude insured that the other SGs on the team would not like him.

Yea I mentioned as much in a later post... If only we had someone to humble AR this year. But I don't think he respected anyone's talent on the team.

[Mr.Analogy]

Yea I mentioned as much in a later post... If only we had someone to humble AR this year. But I don't think he respected anyone's talent on the team.

I agree, I first noticed his demeanor at CTC this year. He constantly argued with the ref while the rest of the team was down court and he repeatedly hung his head after a bad play or acted very upset. Throughout the year, I noticed he got a little better with his team mates but overall the attitude was always there. People compare his swagger to J.J. but I don't because J.J.'s team mates liked him and he could back it up. I hate to see Austin go but it may be a blessing not yet seen....

[Gthoma2a]

I have nothing against Austin's personality or talent. I just think there was a problem with him in another way that I wish he would stay to work on (not to mention that once he learns to be a PART of a team instead of the star of a team he will make a team deadly; that makes me want him to stay, too). I don't think that he fit into the offense at times. He is an insanely good player who can take a defense on his own, but he didn't seem to fit into more traditional half court offensive sets. I think isolation is something that should be used sparingly.

[FerryFor50]

I have nothing against Austin's personality or talent. I just think there was a problem with him in another way that I wish he would stay to work on (not to mention that once he learns to be a PART of a team instead of the star of a team he will make a team deadly; that makes me want him to stay, too). I don't think that he fit into the offense at times. He is an insanely good player who can take a defense on his own, but he didn't seem to fit into more traditional half court offensive sets. I think isolation is something that should be used sparingly.

The thing is, his personality was why he didn't fit in. He spent so long being THE GUY that he never learned how to make his teammates better.

He'll learn it at the next level and be better for it.

[Turk]

Doc Rivers told reporters before the game tonight with the Sixers that Austin hasn't decided yet. Said decision will come shortly, but Austin has gone back and forth on what he wants to do.

Speaking of the Sixers, I think Austin's game is very similar to that of Lou Williams, who is their leading scorer despite coming off the bench. Streaky scorer, questionable shot selection at times, not a whole lot of passing, and a rep as not much of a defender. Austin will need to land in the right situation and right now I'd guess it's in the middle of the first round.

[OldSchool]

The thing is, his personality was why he didn't fit in. He spent so long being THE GUY that he never learned how to make his teammates better.

He'll learn it at the next level and be better for it.

I suspect part of the expectation on Austin "making his teammates better" arose from the fact that we didn't have a point guard who could generate assists.

So people expected Austin to pick up the slack and set up his teammates like we would expect a point guard to do. The fact is, Austin is a scorer.

It's like looking at Dwyane Wade and complaining he doesn't set up his teammates like Chris Paul does. He plays a different position.

I think the other part of this expectation was that because Austin was so highly regarded coming out of high school, people expected his game to be fully developed. In fact, what we saw early in the season was Austin playing out of control at times, being flustered by double-teams, turning the ball over and not focusing on defense. He made great strides during the season on these areas but his passing skills and court vision are not what they will eventually be when he has fully developed as a player.

[FerryFor50]

I suspect part of the expectation on Austin "making his teammates better" arose from the fact that we didn't have a point guard who could generate assists.

So people expected Austin to pick up the slack and set up his teammates like we would expect a point guard to do. The fact is, Austin is a scorer.

It's like looking at Dwyane Wade and complaining he doesn't set up his teammates like Chris Paul does. He plays a different position.

I think the other part of this expectation was that because Austin was so highly regarded coming out of high school, people expected his game to be fully developed. In fact, what we saw early in the season was Austin playing out of control at times, being flustered by double-teams, turning the ball over and not focusing on defense. He made great strides during the season on these areas but his passing skills and court vision are not what they will eventually be when he has fully developed as a player.

Dwayne Wade is a bad example because he DOES make his teammates better. See his 6.3 APG average, his defense and his ability and willingness to rebound from the guard spot.

I didn't mind seeing Rivers take shots. I minded seeing him beat his man off the dribble, get triple teamed and not kick it to an open shooter. I minded him constantly ignoring the post. I minded him looking annoyed when his teammates would miss a shot, as if he never missed one.

You ever play pick up ball with guys like that? It sucks.

He has all the potential in the world and I think he'll figure it out, but he needed a leader, not to BE the leader.

[OldSchool]

Speaking of the Sixers, I think Austin's game is very similar to that of Lou Williams, who is their leading scorer despite coming off the bench. Streaky scorer, questionable shot selection at times, not a whole lot of passing, and a rep as not much of a defender. Austin will need to land in the right situation and right now I'd guess it's in the middle of the first round.

I was just thinking of Lou Williams as an example of a guy who was drafted into the NBA and whose game needed a lot of improvement. He could have done that in college but instead did it in the NBA. Some people say Austin "isn't ready for the NBA" but NBA teams don't necessarily require that if they believe a player will develop. Lou Williams rode a lot of pine before becoming the lead scorer for the Sixers this year.

[duke4life32182]

I for one hope they both stay. I would rather have those two than the Parker kid. Rivers had a great freshman year and would score 20+ a game as a sophmore. Mason had a great junior year and could help his draft status as a senior. Especially if he learned to hit a 10-12 ft jumper. I wish they both would come back but wish them luck wherever they go.

[FerryFor50]

I was just thinking of Lou Williams as an example of a guy who was drafted into the NBA and whose game needed a lot of improvement. He could have done that in college but instead did it in the NBA. Some people say Austin "isn't ready for the NBA" but NBA teams don't necessarily require that if they believe a player will develop. Lou Williams rode a lot of pine before becoming the lead scorer for the Sixers this year.

Agreed. I think that AR's game is more suited for the NBA.

[duke09hms]

Dwayne Wade is a bad example because he DOES make his teammates better. See his 6.3 APG average, his defense and his ability and willingness to rebound from the guard spot.

I didn't mind seeing Rivers take shots. I minded seeing him beat his man off the dribble, get triple teamed and not kick it to an open shooter. I minded him constantly ignoring the post. I minded him looking annoyed when his teammates would miss a shot, as if he never missed one.

You ever play pick up ball with guys like that? It sucks.

He has all the potential in the world and I think he'll figure it out, but he needed a leader, not to BE the leader.

Dwayne Wade is a bad example BECAUSE he is Dwayne Wade and Austin is some skinny 18/19 year old kid.

Austin was the BEST player on this team, played harder than anyone else on the team, and cared more about winning than anyone else. The kid simply hated to lose, everyone else merely disliked losing. He will be missed.

He was 2nd on the team in assists, and it's not there were better options for him to pass to. The best perimeter defender and rebounder. Highest FG% of the guards.
Maybe if an upperclassman on the team had stepped up to BE the leader, Austin wouldn't have had to assume the leadership mantle before he was ready.
There are one-and-done talents every year, but only extremely few emerge as transcendent freshmen leaders (like Kyrie, but even he had Nolan to guide the way).

[OldSchool]

Dwayne Wade is a bad example because he DOES make his teammates better. See his 6.3 APG average, his defense and his ability and willingness to rebound from the guard spot.

I didn't mind seeing Rivers take shots. I minded seeing him beat his man off the dribble, get triple teamed and not kick it to an open shooter. I minded him constantly ignoring the post. I minded him looking annoyed when his teammates would miss a shot, as if he never missed one.

You ever play pick up ball with guys like that? It sucks.

He has all the potential in the world and I think he'll figure it out, but he needed a leader, not to BE the leader.

I expect Austin eventually to generate similar assists to Dwyane Wade, but it won't happen overnight.

I think it is just a bridge too far to criticize this freshman who we asked to be a scorer and who was known as a scorer for not racking up those kinds of assists as a freshman.

I think if Austin does come back, I think he will develop into a 5 assists per game player as he works to improve his passing as he did other aspects of his game.

He has a strong will to improve. He may decide to improve in the NBA instead of college.

What I did expect was to see more assists out of our point guards this year.

[FerryFor50]

I expect Austin eventually to generate similar assists to Dwyane Wade, but it won't happen overnight.

I think it is just a bridge too far to criticize this freshman who we asked to be a scorer and who was known as a scorer for not racking up those kinds of assists as a freshman.

I think if Austin does come back, I think he will develop into a 5 assists per game player as he works to improve his passing as he did other aspects of his game.

He has a strong will to improve. He may decide to improve in the NBA instead of college.

What I did expect was to see more assists out of our point guards this year.

I think he'll definitely improve, but I don't see him ever becoming much of a passer. Someone else made a Lou Williams comparison, and I think that's a fair, accurate comparison.

In the NBA, it's OK to be just someone who scores. In college, you have to do more of the little things because you have less talent to back you up when you're not scoring.

[FerryFor50]

Dwayne Wade is a bad example BECAUSE he is Dwayne Wade and Austin is some skinny 18/19 year old kid.

Austin was the BEST player on this team, played harder than anyone else on the team, and cared more about winning than anyone else. The kid simply hated to lose, everyone else merely disliked losing. He will be missed.

He was 2nd on the team in assists, and it's not there were better options for him to pass to. The best perimeter defender and rebounder. Highest FG% of the guards.
Maybe if an upperclassman on the team had stepped up to BE the leader, Austin wouldn't have had to assume the leadership mantle before he was ready.
There are one-and-done talents every year, but only extremely few emerge as transcendent freshmen leaders (like Kyrie, but even he had Nolan to guide the way).

If you want a fair comparison, try Dwayne Wade's freshman stats at Marquette.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/pla...te/dwyane-wade

Now compare that to AR:

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/pla.../austin-rivers

When Wade was at Marquette, he had FAR less talent to work with than AR had at Duke.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/teams/marqu...ason=2001-2002

Travis Diener was the only other NBA player on that team, and he didn't last long in the league at all.

This Duke team was MADE for someone to penetrate and dish to open shooters or throw alley oops to a Plumlee. And it was happening at the beginning of the year...

Then something changed and we stopped seeing offensive continuity as much.

I didn't raise the comparison to Wade. I am debunking it because it's not relevant.

[OldSchool]

I think he'll definitely improve, but I don't see him ever becoming much of a passer.

Really? I do. I am really impressed with the kid's potential. Of course I can see him getting criticism by the fans of whatever team drafts him next year for whatever his shortcomings are. I think it will take a couple of years before he starts hitting his stride.

One thing he will definitely need to do is get a LOT stronger. Anyone playing his type of game just gets beat up in the league.

[Turk]

I was just thinking of Lou Williams as an example of a guy who was drafted into the NBA and whose game needed a lot of improvement. He could have done that in college but instead did it in the NBA. Some people say Austin "isn't ready for the NBA" but NBA teams don't necessarily require that if they believe a player will develop. Lou Williams rode a lot of pine before becoming the lead scorer for the Sixers this year.

Doug Collins is doing a mix-n-match thing with his guards because they all have a hole or two in their games. If you could melt Williams, Jrue Holliday, Jodie Meeks, and Evan Turner into two molds, you'd have an excellent backcourt.

[FerryFor50]

Really? I do. I am really impressed with the kid's potential. Of course I can see him getting criticism by the fans of whatever team drafts him next year for whatever his shortcomings are. I think it will take a couple of years before he starts hitting his stride.

One thing he will definitely need to do is get a LOT stronger. Anyone playing his type of game just gets beat up in the league.

I think getting stronger would help him. He had trouble finishing it traffic sometimes.

But there are plenty of guards in the league that are his build and strength and don't pass a whole lot... Monta Ellis, Lou Williams, Steph Curry come to mind (though Ellis and Curry *have* improved as passers).

[OldSchool]

If you want a fair comparison, try Dwayne Wade's freshman stats at Marquette.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/pla...te/dwyane-wade

Now compare that to AR:

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/pla.../austin-rivers

When Wade was at Marquette, he had FAR less talent to work with than AR had at Duke.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/teams/marqu...ason=2001-2002

Travis Diener was the only other NBA player on that team, and he didn't last long in the league at all.

This Duke team was MADE for someone to penetrate and dish to open shooters or throw alley oops to a Plumlee. And it was happening at the beginning of the year...

Then something changed and we stopped seeing offensive continuity as much.

I didn't raise the comparison to Wade. I am debunking it because it's not relevant.

Players do improve. Because Austin didn't demonstrate those kinds of assists as a freshman doesn't mean he won't develop into a good passer.

You think he won't, I think he will.

Austin's game is much more like D Wade than Lou Williams. Like D Wade, he looks to take it to the rack, relies on his handle, quickness and moves to beat people and he does not shy from contact and is comfortable taking it right at big guys in the lane. Other elements of his game, like being a better passer out of double teams and short range floater and jump shots, will come with time, and they are a natural outgrowth of that D Wade-playing style. In terms of outside shooting, Austin is probably starting out from a stronger position than D Wade.

[FerryFor50]

Players do improve. Because Austin didn't demonstrate those kinds of assists as a freshman doesn't mean he won't develop into a good passer.

You think he won't, I think he will.

Austin's game is much more like D Wade than Lou Williams. Like D Wade, he looks to take it to the rack, relies on his handle, quickness and moves to beat people and he does not shy from contact and is comfortable taking it right at big guys in the lane. Other elements of his game, like being a better passer out of double teams and short range floater and jump shots, will come with time, and they are a natural outgrowth of that D Wade-playing style. In terms of outside shooting, Austin is probably starting out from a stronger position than D Wade.

I agree about the similarity of taking it to the rack. That part will improve.

But DWade always had court vision. I'm shocked that so many schools missed on his recruitment and he ended up at Marquette.

[ncexnyc]

I'm not surprised the posts are taking a negative tone towards Austin. What is surprising is that we haven't heard anything concrete yet. Does Austin have faults? Yes, he does, but what transpired this past year can't be placed on his shoulders and his shoulders alone. It was a team effort, win, or lose.