Mason Plumlee Returning to Duke for Senior Season

[hq2]

Doc will decide this and I have no idea what the decision will be.

No reason for him to get advice from us; won't get much better than that!

[gwlaw99]

I actually agree a lot with this. Rivers could still "out-athlete" most high school players. That, along with his polished moves made him dominant. He's been at times dominant as a college freshman, but he's finding that defenses are bigger, stronger, faster, and more disciplined in college. That only becomes more true in the NBA (despite what some people may think, the defense played in the NBA is really good). It's much harder to win those isolation battles without Kobe-like athleticism. It would do Rivers a world of good to expand his game a lot more in order to succeed at the next level.

He also can't or won't finish with his left hand which makes him much easier to block.

[CDu]

He also can't or won't finish with his left hand which makes him much easier to block.

Not sure I agree with this (the "easier to block" part). He's crafty enough to finish with his right hand from the same spots that folks would finish with their left hand. Now, you could argue that he forces himself to take more difficult shots as a result, and I won't argue there. But I don't think he's any easier to block. I don't remember him having his shot blocked very often this year.

[Greg_Newton]

I actually agree a lot with this. Rivers could still "out-athlete" most high school players. That, along with his polished moves made him dominant. He's been at times dominant as a college freshman, but he's finding that defenses are bigger, stronger, faster, and more disciplined in college. That only becomes more true in the NBA (despite what some people may think, the defense played in the NBA is really good). It's much harder to win those isolation battles without Kobe-like athleticism. It would do Rivers a world of good to expand his game a lot more in order to succeed at the next level.

Point!

Guard!

C'mon Austin, come back and learn the ropes from "the man who made Kyrie Irving"!

[azzefkram]

Not sure I agree with this (the "easier to block" part). He's crafty enough to finish with his right hand from the same spots that folks would finish with their left hand. Now, you could argue that he forces himself to take more difficult shots as a result, and I won't argue there. But I don't think he's any easier to block. I don't remember him having his shot blocked very often this year.

It's assumed it is easier to block since you don't have to go across the shooters body to get to the ball. It kind of makes sense but who knows if that is really the case.

[CDu]

It's assumed it is easier to block since you don't have to go across the shooters body to get to the ball. It kind of makes sense but who knows if that is really the case.

But most blocks don't happen in a man-on-man situation. They happen primarily from an off position (either coming in from the side or from behind). Usually, if you are going right at the defender, you are able to adjust to avoid a block. That would be true with either hand. If the defender is going to be able to block your shot face-up, he's probably going to be able to do so regardless of which hand you release with (in other words, he's going to be able to come across your body anyway). Only the really good shotblockers can regularly get those kind of blocks. Rivers is clever enough to avoid getting blocked by the man facing him. And that's the only situation in which the hand could make much difference. The weakside help is going to get there (or not) no matter which hand he shoots with.

[Greg_Newton]

But most blocks don't happen in a man-on-man situation. They happen primarily from an off position (either coming in from the side or from behind). Usually, if you are going right at the defender, you are able to adjust to avoid a block. That would be true with either hand. If the defender is going to be able to block your shot face-up, he's probably going to be able to do so regardless of which hand you release with (in other words, he's going to be able to come across your body anyway). Only the really good shotblockers can regularly get those kind of blocks. Rivers is clever enough to avoid getting blocked by the man facing him. And that's the only situation in which the hand could make much difference. The weakside help is going to get there (or not) no matter which hand he shoots with.

Have to disagree here. If you're jumping into a defender who's basically lateral to you, the cushion provided by your body and off-hand provides important separation. It's a lot harder to make shoulder-to-shoulder contact with a defender in the air, then finish with that same hand (all else equal).

[gwlaw99]

It's assumed it is easier to block since you don't have to go across the shooters body to get to the ball. It kind of makes sense but who knows if that is really the case.

That is one reason especially since NBA shot blockers are much better than in college.

Here is a good example from Jeremy Lin. Could he have finished this shot with his right hand?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNbAGKxy6FY

Kobe finishing with his left to avoid the block.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imelc_ngDBI

Not only that, but players often have to switch to their left hand to finish in order to not get blocked.

For example, in this video how Kyrie needs to switch hands to avoid getting blocked by Lebron.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsUtG9CI6IQ

I shouldn't say Rivers "can't" use his left hand. I am just saying it is not quite natural for him based on what we have seen all season. Here is a nice left handed drive by Austin at about 1:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGDexLmdqpA

[HK Dukie]

From Austin's tweets on wanting to prove all the doubters wrong, I'm pessimistic he will be coming back.

Good luck to him whatever he decides.

[greybeard]

Have to disagree here. If you're jumping into a defender who's basically lateral to you, the cushion provided by your body and off-hand provides important separation. It's a lot harder to make shoulder-to-shoulder contact with a defender in the air, then finish with that same hand (all else equal).

Earl Monroe would disagree. So would I.

You make shoulder to shoulder contact going slightly right to left, catch in your lefrt hand immediately after your left foot (first step) hits the ground, bringing the ball up and towards the right, your right hand meets the ball in front of the middle of upper part of the defender's chest, you bring the ball up as the defender goes by you and is expecting the right takeoff foot to drop only you move the ball up and forward which if the defender can react at all, causes him to reach back but you pull the ball back and move it over to your right and release it unimpeded, banking it off the board. The shot is very, very repeatable. Or, if the guy doesn't go past you you bring the ball up right past his face and release a couple of inches above the middle of his forhead, again off the boad--no way the defender can get his hand on it. The lefty slight hook shot, on the other hand, can be timed by a much taller defender and blocked out of the air.

Rivers has come up with ways of befuddling defenders and the laws of nature going to his left and finishing with his right that I have never seen before. No one has gotten a hand on these finishes and he has made lots of them. I am sure, as in certain, that he has a little lefty hook in his arsenal.

Unlike G who could not and did not dribble to his left, Rivers attacks frequently in that direction. His preference for going right is probably in part shaped by the floater he has going straight toward the basket or to his right. He has not shown that same shot going to his left. I'm not sure I know how such a floater would look.

What I haven't seen from Rivers is a pull up jump shot in the lane, after slowing down as he passes the foul line. That shot I think is extremely important to have--if the big comes out, Rivers blows by him or bounces or lobs it to the open inside player who has just been left alone. Very important shot to have. Teague was terrific at that.

Rivers, actually, has not shown that he has a mid-range jump shot off the dribble, or catch for that matter. That, I think, is of a same piece with the just described in the lane slow-down and pull-up jump shot. Here is where his shooting style, elbows out, etc., I believe needs to be diversified--he needs an entirely different jump shot to pose a mid-range or in-the-lane scoring threat of the sorts just described. I'm confident that he can develop the in the lane shot, and if he does that, the mid range shot will be there also, but for the need for different footwork, different ways of bringing the ball up to shooting, and different release points, which is to say that the options for shooting a mid range jump shot he'll need/want to develop (no one should have just one) will pretty much be different. The major change, however, the narrower elbows, the shooting off lateral movement, will haave already been developed. The rest is relative tweaking.

For all we know, he might have those shots in his game already, maybe just not to his satisfaction yet.

By the way, what in heaven's name is "Basketball IQ?" What do IQ tests actually measure? To me, the term "Basketball IQ," ubiquitous in basketball lexicon, is a meaningless nothing to substitute for a range of things that can be identified and stated with specificity. When a kid takes an IQ test, they give the kid a single score, and here we are not talking about some abstract measurement of some etherial ability that makes IQ tests of questionable utility even when it comes to learning one's abcs; movements, and the ever changing relationships on the court, how one sees them and choses to react, the diversity of tools that he brings to the task, his ability to compute/intuate/presage what is going to happen before the soon to be actors have even come into the play, well, which among these things and others are we talking about. Sorry, statistics here are useless, and Basketball IQ" leaves me at a loss.

Rivers got to be the one-one in his year's recruiting class, started on a team stock full of talented guards, and made first team ACC. Whatever basketball IQ means, I couldn't imagine that he doesn't have enough of mant of the things that it comprises in substantial enough quantities (?) not to be said to posses a pretty high one.

[Greg_Newton]

You make shoulder to shoulder contact going slightly right to left, catch in your lefrt hand immediately after your left foot (first step) hits the ground, bringing the ball up and towards the right, your right hand meets the ball in front of the middle of upper part of the defender's chest, you bring the ball up as the defender goes by you and is expecting the right takeoff foot to drop only you move the ball up and forward which if the defender can react at all, causes him to reach back but you pull the ball back and move it over to your right and release it unimpeded, banking it off the board.

Wait... what? You're saying that it's preferable to completely change your footwork, jump on your first step, and essentially try to "sneak" the ball behind the defender, while hoping he simply sails past? You're going to get zero lift on your jump if you actually sell it, first of all, and given that it only takes 2-3 steps for an offensive player to get from the 3-point line to the rim these days, you're going to end up jumping very far from the rim.

More importantly, have you ever seen Rivers execute this specific move?

Or, if the guy doesn't go past you you bring the ball up right past his face and release a couple of inches above the middle of his forhead, again off the boad--no way the defender can get his hand on it. The lefty slight hook shot, on the other hand, can be timed by a much taller defender and blocked out of the air.

I mean... have you seen this happen once in college basketball this year? A defender driving to the left side of the rim, contested in the air by a defender, and sneaks the shot across his body, right over the defender's forehead, with his right hand? Honest question.

Both of those moves seem like sneaky attempts to compensate for not having the natural advantage of your body and off-hand to create separation and extension. A left-handed layup on the left side of the rim is a pretty basic fundamental of basketball, regardless of whether you can think of ways to circumvent it.

[dcar1985]

That is one reason especially since NBA shot blockers are much better than in college.

Here is a good example from Jeremy Lin. Could he have finished this shot with his right hand?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNbAGKxy6FY

Kobe finishing with his left to avoid the block.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imelc_ngDBI

Not only that, but players often have to switch to their left hand to finish in order to not get blocked.

For example, in this video how Kyrie needs to switch hands to avoid getting blocked by Lebron.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsUtG9CI6IQ

I shouldn't say Rivers "can't" use his left hand. I am just saying it is not quite natural for him based on what we have seen all season. Here is a nice left handed drive by Austin at about 1:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGDexLmdqpA

Just nitpicking but he didn't look very comfortable finishing left there and he jumped off the wrong foot which was why there was no elevation.

[greybeard]

Wait... what? You're saying that it's preferable to completely change your footwork, jump on your first step, and essentially try to "sneak" the ball behind the defender, while hoping he simply sails past? You're going to get zero lift on your jump if you actually sell it, first of all, and given that it only takes 2-3 steps for an offensive player to get from the 3-point line to the rim these days, you're going to end up jumping very far from the rim.

More importantly, have you ever seen Rivers execute this specific move?



I mean... have you seen this happen once in college basketball this year? A defender driving to the left side of the rim, contested in the air by a defender, and sneaks the shot across his body, right over the defender's forehead, with his right hand? Honest question.

Both of those moves seem like sneaky attempts to compensate for not having the natural advantage of your body and off-hand to create separation and extension. A left-handed layup on the left side of the rim is a pretty basic fundamental of basketball, regardless of whether you can think of ways to circumvent it.

Rivers has done the move. You just haven't noticed. You want to see plenty of it watch video of Earl or better still Bobby Jones, who wrong footed everyone from all angles. Seattle had a blond haired center who instead of pivoting to his left by swinging his right foot around his left pivot foot to face the basket did an upside down pivot that had him playing off the wrong foot from the get go. What he did was, after catching it with his back to the basket, he would slide his right foot, heal first, past the heal of his left foot, and as he pivoted on his left foot to the right, he slide his right foot back. In other words, he was facing up to the defender as if he was a lefty only he was a righty, except, unlike a lefty, his pivot foot, the foot in front, was his left foot, just like a righty. He shot his jump shot from that position and all his off-the-bounce moves started with the "wrong" foot moving in the "wrong" direction and ususally ended up with a wrong footed finish. The guy couldn't jump, was 6'10" maybe, and I believe is in the top 50. No one could guard the guy because he was counter to everyone's habitual pattern for playing the game and none of his movements could be met with the defender's habitual patterns for defense. They literally were dumbfounded, and, if his jump shot was falling, he owned them.

Cazzy Russell was the first I ever saw using a wrong footed stop and quick catch with his left hand to shoot a jump shot going to his left. He would drive at a very controlled gait that the defender could time parellel to the side line and when he was at right angle to the rim, jab his right foot into the ground as he reached down with his left, scooped the ball up with his left hand off the short bounce, jab his left foot into the ground and elevate. Did it all the time and the defender rarely got up to defend, and never got up quick enough to make a serious challenge. Why? You have to stop the guy from turning the corner and driving the baseline, you need to stay down. The normal one-two stop, plant left foot and square up as you catch and plant right foot in front gives the defender lots of time to defend because the entire set up takes time. Now, NEARLY EVERY PLAYER WHO GOES TO HIS LEFT AND SHOOTS A JUMP SHOT HAS CAZZY'S FOOTWORK, AT LEAST IN HIS ARSENAL.

Back to the layup, people just can't time what they see so rarely. If a defender tried to time, prepare himself to defend, a wrong-footed first-step stop and shot, he would have to slow down in anticipation while the offensive player continued at speed. Then the defender just gave up the one shot that every basketball player in the universe has to defend against, and that would be a layup from the easiest spot on the court. The defender, when confronted with a right to left drive, must try to make the dribbler shoot from a slightly different angle than what is ideal, to make him take a wider girth than releasing the scoop hook layup with his body in front of the rim and his arm extended to the side. If the defender does that, and the offensive player does not have a range of angles that are "money," the odds of his making that shot dramatically diminished. Then, when it is a big against a little, the big defender will have the space to both distrub the release point (again diminishing the odds of a make) and to get a piece of it in the air. The defender has no other choice but to play the offensive player this way.

By the way, if a college player does not have that shot, a scoop hooked layup going across the lane either way, and thus with either hand, he is not Div I, or Div II, or Div III player. In fact, he is a rather poorly skilled rec ball player; might be a great athlete, but not a ball player. I had that shot by sixth grade. Rivers I am sure had it much sooner.

Anyway, let's continue. If the defender is going at speed and you wrong foot him, maybe he gets to reach back, but you control the ball and the timing of your release and can move the ball around, bring it forward and up with your right and supporting left which will cause the guy to come up with his arm and the rest of him ever so slightly, what goes up must come down before a body can redirect itself and in the meantime you have an uncontested shot. Now, if the guy isn't, and it is often the case that he isn't, completely past you, but rather has been, as you put it, shoulder to shoulder, when you one-stop the guy you wind up with your bodies more or less on the same plain--you have in effect turned some to your right. You bring the ball palm up where it meets your right sort of where the guy's sternum is and then continue to bring it up past his chin, nose, and forehead and release the ball slightly above his forehead, perhaps even reaching so the ball is actully over the space between the guys ear and shoulder.

Please explain how the defender can possibly disturb this shot, and the method don't count if it includes punching himself in the jaw, nose or high cheek bone or eye.

Now, Rivers is often triple teamed, there is a second inside help defender trailing the first. That guy can get the shot we are talking about if he is close and adroit enough. That's when Rivers' chaotic genuis, and I do mean genuis, and amazingly quick feet with small steps while dribbling takes the entire deal to a ridiculous level. See, when he senses that that second guy can get the wrong footed move, he either makes sure he draws the foul from the first help guy or the guy who was guarding him all along or both (who can anticipate this guy's slight changes in direction), or comes up with some ridiculous over his head, back to the basket, layup or jump stop creation that somehow goes in and will always draw a foul, called or not.

So, I hope that that satisfies. If I was a younger man, I'd show you what I'm talking about. A picture, they say, is worth a thousand words and I am way, way over the limit.

[Greg_Newton]

You want to see plenty of it watch video of Earl or better still Bobby Jones, who wrong footed everyone from all angles.

Don't get me wrong, I think all this stuff is interesting (Dick DiVenzio's Stuff Good Players Should Know was like my bible growing up). But rather than relying on extremely subtle and unconventional moves that require impeccable timing which a couple of precocious players pulled off in a very different era (there weren't centers with 12'+ max reaches on every team in the 70s) as your default finish on the left side of the court, wouldn't it be easier to simply work on your left-handed lay-in?

Anyway, here's an article on Mason's process: http://heraldsun.com/bookmark/17962027 Mason says he's going to explore the possibility of entering the draft, and sounds like he truly doesn't have his mind made up either way.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Mason's thinking things over.

“He is taking his time, doing some soul searching and gathering quality information with which to make an informed decision about his future,” said Perky Plumlee, Mason’s father. “The Duke staff is fully supportive and wants the best for Mason.”

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/201...#storylink=cpy

[greybeard]

Don't get me wrong, I think all this stuff is interesting (Dick DiVenzio's Stuff Good Players Should Know was like my bible growing up). But rather than relying on extremely subtle and unconventional moves that require impeccable timing which a couple of precocious players pulled off in a very different era (there weren't centers with 12'+ max reaches on every team in the 70s) as your default finish on the left side of the court, wouldn't it be easier to simply work on your left-handed lay-in?

Anyway, here's an article on Mason's process: http://heraldsun.com/bookmark/17962027 Mason says he's going to explore the possibility of entering the draft, and sounds like he truly doesn't have his mind made up either way.

A couple of things. First, I took a rolled up pair of socks, and using the trim on the top of a wide opening between my living and dining rooms walked through the moves I have been describing and, in recreating the feel of it realized that there was a misstake, a mistake without a realo difference, but a mistake nontheless. Without belaboring an issue of not great moment, what I found was that the catch is in fact made as the left foot hits the ground (assuming going slightly right to left or even straight at the left side of the basket head on for left handed layup, hook or not. Where the off-beat, non conventional, almost impossible right hand shot is set up is where and how the right foot is planted and where the left leg goes thereafter. If going for the basket for a left handed finish the right foot is planted and the left knee comes up in front of the body to elevate for a layup. When pulling the ball back to shoot with the right, the lower left leg never comes forward and the pull of the right arm back causes the offensive's btorso to turn sort of 30-45 degrees to the right, parellel to the defenders.

This misnomer that many people operate under is that the offensive player needs to be "there" faster/first and higher than the defender to score the ball. The offensive player and the ball simply have to be whereever "there" is (the offensive player gets to choose) at a different time. Tyler Hansborough loved to set guy's up off a stop going slightly to his left, stepping through with his left foot, holding the ball wide of his right shoulder, up around his ear or higher, and shooting a bank shot. Never jumped, not meaningfully. He also regularly used a move that brought him chest to chest with a defender, again in a manner that caused the defender to think the ball was coming up for release in one spot, only to find that as he closed he encountered Hans' chest with the ball held wide and shot from the above mentioned position. Again he never jumped. He had other moves like that, the bulk of which I cannot recall right now. You'll recall the moves because everyone here complained ole Tyler was charging or walking but he was doing neither, which is why neither was called. Different place. Tyler set the tempo of the dance, the defender has no choice but to follow it, and catching the defender on the offstep, Tyler plants as if he's about to rise, the defender hurries, Tyler steps through and the defender jumps towards what is now Tyler's chest.

Your boy Kyrie never outruns anybody anywhere and always winds up with an open shot. How? He gets to spots in unexpected ways at unexpected speeds, a feigned or short burst and then a change in direction or simply a stop. Kyrie will often pull off several of these in one foray.

The taller payers of today create greater problems for the shot that we're discussing but opnly if they have space, room from the shooter. But they can't afford that room because they must stop the shooter getting to the layup spot, they must make him stop at a different spot at a slightly different angle to make the shot itself a fairly low percentage finish and to have the room to use their length. Once Rivers is chest to chest, the height advantage is of no meaningful significance. Most of Rivers moves like this result in fouls that put him on the floor, which is why I believe that you say they are not used.

Dave DeBushere used to drive the lane, sometimes finishing with the left when he could beat the help and other times one-footing it and finishing right. Clyde used to dribble slowly with a gliding step-slide, step-slide when moving back and forth, from one side of the lane to the other, about 15-17 feet out. The defender had to move at Clydes' even, slow tempo, Clyde chose when the dance speeded up, and would have a quick rise and shot, only if the defender kept up and rose as Clyde was about to, Clyde pulled it back down a bit, stepped through, often made the shot and got fouled or just got fouled.

Vladie never got anywhere first and never went fast, he got the guy moving at his pace in the direction he chose, seeming to ready himself to stop in a place where the finish was predictable, and once the defender bit, Valdie was off in a different direction, not vary far and deleivered a shot in a way and from a spot that the defender had no chance of contesting.

There are much better athletes playing today and lots more length. Off the ball shot blockers, and each team almost always has two, even if one is the real deal, make for greater challenges. But they do whether a guard is going fast or slow. Marshall, the next time he finishes inside with speed will be the first. Ditto with Kyrie. The offensive player sets the tempo, direction and steps for the dance and can change it when and how he decides, which is why many unathletic guys can really play. Oh, another real terrific guy in getting guys wrongfooted and getting defenders into his chest and delivering the ball from odd positions was McKale. He never outjumped anyone and kept his enemies closer than they could handle--that was key to his game. Zeller, BTW, has a fair amount of this type play in his game.

This was an interesting disgussion and I see your points--most of the game is played at speed and over the rim. Kyrie, Paul, are examples of guys who do not use speed, but rather change of speed to beat you. Rivers is mostly a speed guy but does use this wrinkle when going left. He does so because it works and the left handed finish will be blocked or sufficiently altered to give it no chance.

I could be all wet about this, but don't think so. I sometimes speak with sureness that inappropriately presupposes that there are no other possibilities. There are, and I really need to find a different voice when participating in a good airing of opposing views. Sorry to the extent that I have done that here. The fun and worthwhile stuff here happens when the debate, while sometimes fierce, remains open. I've got to remember that!

Thanks for the run.

[ForkFondler]

I would have to believe so. FWIW, if Austin stays, I would not be at all surprised to see the staff give serious consideration to (or at least experiment with) shifting him to the point, and pushing Austin to use his quickness and penetrating ability in exactly the fashion you describe. If successful, our offense could improve dramatically, even without Mason. Austin's NBA potential would surely increase, too, if he were viewed as having legit PG skills.

When Rivers and Thornton played together, it seemed to me that Rivers was the de facto PG on offense, while Thornton generally played the opposing PG on defense.

[CDu]

When Rivers and Thornton played together, it seemed to me that Rivers was the de facto PG on offense, while Thornton generally played the opposing PG on defense.

I think the situation was pretty fluid actually. Depending on the game situation and opponent, Rivers, Thornton, Curry, and Cook all took turns at PG on both ends of the floor. At no point in the season did we have one clear-cut PG for the majority of a game.

[MattC09]

According to JayWill, Mason is going to test the waters. I imagine that he's gone.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Don't get me wrong, I think all this stuff is interesting (Dick DiVenzio's Stuff Good Players Should Know was like my bible growing up). But rather than relying on extremely subtle and unconventional moves that require impeccable timing which a couple of precocious players pulled off in a very different era (there weren't centers with 12'+ max reaches on every team in the 70s) as your default finish on the left side of the court, wouldn't it be easier to simply work on your left-handed lay-in?

Anyway, here's an article on Mason's process: http://heraldsun.com/bookmark/17962027 Mason says he's going to explore the possibility of entering the draft, and sounds like he truly doesn't have his mind made up either way.

I take Mason's thinking as a sign that he is going pro. I had hoped that graduating in four years with a double major would bring him back no matter what so need to test the waters.

SoCal