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  1. #561
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Atlanta, GA/Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Turk View Post
    You're right, I've never attended an NBA practice or workout in person; I'd love to someday but haven't worked up the nerve to ask Coach Collins for an invite yet.

    The one thing Kwame (1st pick), Darko (2), and Bynum (10) all had in common is that they were picked so high in their drafts, and also because dominant centers are so rare (just ask the Sixers). Speaking of JJ, he was 11th pick overall, and for all that patience and hard work, he's established himself as a nice 6th man on a pretty decent team. Let's rewind a bit; if memory serves there was also a lot of discussion about how JJ would do in the NBA after leaving Duke, with a pretty wide range of opinions. All-star? Nope, doesn't look like that's going to happen for JJ. Bust? Nope, that's off the table too, he's proven he can play in the league.

    In addition to his game, Austin also has the huge advantage of his dad's experience, so maybe his career will be better than JJs. He also had a great season as a freshman in the ACC. As good as he is, I don't think he'll have NBA success next season that Kyrie is having.

    Supa, sorry if my post got you all worked up and rhetorical, but I gotta ask you one question: are you telling me Austin can be as good as Lebron?
    Awww it's no problem. And I highly recommend you ask for that visit - preferably at the beginning of the season. NBA practices can get HEATED (or do I need to bring up stories of players punching each other and choking coaches?). If there's a starting position on the line during a contract year - watch out!!

    Can Austin be as good as Lebron? That's quite an interesting question considering the different things they both bring. One thing is for sure - I know that Austin wont be afraid to take that last second shot - EVER.

    I expect Austin to make a splash more in the vein of Penny Hardaway. He's gonna get schooled - but all rookies do.

  2. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Stealth View Post
    By my count, Duke has had 4 one and dones (assuming Austin is in fact gone). Corey Maggette's team played for the championship and probably should have won it. Not a defining example because he wasn't even a starter (due to the team being so ridiculously good), but his openness to leaving certainly didn't seem to hurt the team.

    Luol Deng's team also went to the Final Four and was a couple of bad breaks in the semifinal from also winning it all. Again, he seemed to fit in very well on that team - his desire to leave after one year didn't seem to hurt us one bit.

    If you think that Kyrie Irving's desire to go to the NBA hurt our team last year, I personally think that that is not a reasonable opinion. He fit in fantastically right from day 1 and then got hurt. It didn't work to reintegrate him on the fly coming off the injury, but that hardly seems to be a result of leaning toward the NBA. He was visibly fully committed to the team throughout the season and a great teammate even under very difficult circumstances. I think that a lot of people believe that if the toe injury had not happened, we would be talking about 2011 Duke as one of the greatest college basketball teams ever, and a back to back champion at that (does anyone even remember that we actually one a national championship just 2 years ago?).

    This year is the only year that you could even reasonably argue that something was wrong with the makeup on the team that had a one and done player. I personally don't lay that at Rivers feet, as he was first team all-ACC, our best player, and single handedly gave us one of Duke's most memorable and satisfying victories ever, but at least this team did have problems clicking the way it should have. There are several other players who also impacted the makeup the team and a million reasons why things didn't work out, so it seems like flawed reasoning to blame the recruitment of one and done players. Taken as a whole and especially considering that the current overwhelming postseason favorite relies heavily on one and done players, your assessment leaves a lot to be desired in terms of accuracy.
    Neither Maggette or Deng were the nucleus of the team, as you just stated.When they came to Duke nobody thought they would leave in a year. Irving and Rivers are just the opposite. Both were the nucleus of the team and both came to leave, and everybody knew it. And, in my opinion and alot of others, Duke lacked accomplishment with them being here. Personally, I would much rather see guys come in that are 4 year guys.....guys that develop into the program and advance it. I think many others agree. Nothing personal against anyone, just a preference, that's all.

  3. #563
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    New York

    Deng

    Quote Originally Posted by stixof96 View Post
    Neither Maggette or Deng were the nucleus of the team, as you just stated.When they came to Duke nobody thought they would leave in a year. Irving and Rivers are just the opposite. Both were the nucleus of the team and both came to leave, and everybody knew it. And, in my opinion and alot of others, Duke lacked accomplishment with them being here. Personally, I would much rather see guys come in that are 4 year guys.....guys that develop into the program and advance it. I think many others agree. Nothing personal against anyone, just a preference, that's all.
    This is incorrect in the case of Deng. That 2004 team had talent everywhere. Sophomore Redick, sophomore Shelden, senior Duhon, junior Shav, and junior Daniel Ewing. Of all those guys, Deng was the most talented, the most versatile, and arguably simply the best player on the team. He was second on the team in points, second in rebounds, second in minutes played. If that isn't the definition of a nucleus player, I don't know what is. Moreover, his absence was palpable the next season in which despite the ironman greatness of Redick and Williams, the team felt far less multi-dimensional than in '04. I would argue that Deng was more important to that year's team than Kyrie was to last year's squad.

  4. #564
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Des Esseintes View Post
    This is incorrect in the case of Deng. That 2004 team had talent everywhere. Sophomore Redick, sophomore Shelden, senior Duhon, junior Shav, and junior Daniel Ewing. Of all those guys, Deng was the most talented, the most versatile, and arguably simply the best player on the team. He was second on the team in points, second in rebounds, second in minutes played. If that isn't the definition of a nucleus player, I don't know what is. Moreover, his absence was palpable the next season in which despite the ironman greatness of Redick and Williams, the team felt far less multi-dimensional than in '04. I would argue that Deng was more important to that year's team than Kyrie was to last year's squad.
    Deng was a monster. Was sad to see him leave early, though I understand the circumstances.

  5. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by stixof96 View Post
    Neither Maggette or Deng were the nucleus of the team, as you just stated.When they came to Duke nobody thought they would leave in a year. Irving and Rivers are just the opposite. Both were the nucleus of the team and both came to leave, and everybody knew it. And, in my opinion and alot of others, Duke lacked accomplishment with them being here. Personally, I would much rather see guys come in that are 4 year guys.....guys that develop into the program and advance it. I think many others agree. Nothing personal against anyone, just a preference, that's all.
    "Lacked accomplishment." Ok. I guess with Rivers at least there's an argument to be made, given the final result, although I'd think we would have accomplished less (i.e. wins) and been a worse team this year without him, and he gave us a win over UNC for the ages just about all by himself. Applying that judgment to Irving though makes absolutely no sense given his injury situation and just makes you seem bitter that they didn't give you more of their time, despite the opportunities before them.

  6. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by SupaDave View Post
    Austin is a special talent and a hard worker. He probably knows the NBA schedule better than his class schedule. NBA players don't just practice with their teams. It's a LIFESTYLE. There's no class to go to. It's basketball year round - you know kinda like how Austin grew up.
    Agreed. This idea that players don't improve while they're playing in the NBA - I have to wonder if some of the people who spout it follow the NBA at all. Players absolutely do improve while playing in the NBA. Competing against the best players in the world = getting better.

    I should qualify that - guys who are hard workers get better. JJ Redick is a FAR better player now than he was when he entered the NBA, for example, because he has worked his tail off. The idea that a guy can't develop while on an NBA bench is flatly disproven by the hundreds and hundreds of players who have done exactly that.

    AR by all accounts has a phenomenal work ethic - he will be just fine in the NBA.

  7. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by stixof96 View Post
    i think the main problem people have is this:
    K has made the decision to recruit players who are open about potentially leaving after one year. And so far, it is not working out very well for the team. Sure, there are the regular season wins, but, when money ball starts, it is not fairing very well.
    At this point pretty much everyone ranked in the Top 50 recruits is open to leaving after one year. Not all of them will, of course, but 90% or more of them are open to it.

    K ignoring any prospects who might leave after a year = K doesn't recruit top talent. I don't like the "one-and-done" thing for a variety of reasons - I don't like the notion that the NBA "forces" kids to go to college, and as an alum I'd really rather use scholarships on kids who are serious about eventually getting a degree - but this is a fact of life in college basketball. You either recruit top talent and deal with early entry, or you recruit less-heralded players and hope to make a run once every 3-4 years.

  8. #568
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Cambridge, MA
    Mason should sit Coach K down and tell him he'll come back to school if K promises that he'll start Quinn Cook at the point next year.

  9. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Stealth View Post
    "Lacked accomplishment." Ok. I guess with Rivers at least there's an argument to be made, given the final result, although I'd think we would have accomplished less (i.e. wins) and been a worse team this year without him, and he gave us a win over UNC for the ages just about all by himself. Applying that judgment to Irving though makes absolutely no sense given his injury situation and just makes you seem bitter that they didn't give you more of their time, despite the opportunities before them.
    I am certainly not bitter, that's ridiculous. I think it all boils down to what one desires as a fan. It is obvious that some of you young guns in here want the sports center highlight reels. I am an old school laundry guy, I want to hang all the laundry possible, that is my first desire. I think the final four does a great job of presenting my case here. If you look at the 20 starters among the 4 teams in this years final four, you will see one freshman, just one. The other 19 are returning players, 15 of them seniors and juniors. In my opinion, it leaves very little to argue about. If you want to end up at the top of the pile, build your team around experienced players that come to play, and come to stay.

  10. #570
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Quote Originally Posted by stixof96 View Post
    I am certainly not bitter, that's ridiculous. I think it all boils down to what one desires as a fan. It is obvious that some of you young guns in here want the sports center highlight reels. I am an old school laundry guy, I want to hang all the laundry possible, that is my first desire. I think the final four does a great job of presenting my case here. If you look at the 20 starters among the 4 teams in this years final four, you will see one freshman, just one. The other 19 are returning players, 15 of them seniors and juniors. In my opinion, it leaves very little to argue about. If you want to end up at the top of the pile, build your team around experienced players that come to play, and come to stay.
    I don't know where you're getting your numbers, but they're very wrong.

    Anthony Davis
    Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
    Marquis Teague
    Chane Behanan

    That's 4 of 20 that are freshmen.

    Aaron Craft
    Jared Sullinger
    Deshaun Thomas
    Lenzelle Smith
    Doron Lamb
    Terrence Jones
    Gorgui Dieng

    That's 7 of the remaining 16 that are sophomores.

    So, over half of the starters in this year's final four will be freshmen and sophomores. I think this year's final four does a pretty darn poor job of presenting your case - one team starts all freshmen and sophomores, and another starts four sophomores with one senior.
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  11. #571
    Quote Originally Posted by stixof96 View Post
    I am certainly not bitter, that's ridiculous. I think it all boils down to what one desires as a fan. It is obvious that some of you young guns in here want the sports center highlight reels. I am an old school laundry guy, I want to hang all the laundry possible, that is my first desire. I think the final four does a great job of presenting my case here. If you look at the 20 starters among the 4 teams in this years final four, you will see one freshman, just one. The other 19 are returning players, 15 of them seniors and juniors. In my opinion, it leaves very little to argue about. If you want to end up at the top of the pile, build your team around experienced players that come to play, and come to stay.
    That's simply not accurate. Kentucky, the prohibitive favorite, starts 3 freshman, 1 sophomore, and a senior, with a sophomore and freshman as the key bench guys. That's 6 underclassmen in their 7-man rotation, and 4 of those 6 are freshmen.

    OSU starts 4 sophomores and a senior with a junior and two freshmen as the key reserves. That's 6 underclassmen in their 8-man rotation.

    Louisville and Kansas fit your argument more closely, but they're the two teams least likely to make the championship game.

  12. #572
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Kentucky, the prohibitive favorite, starts 3 freshman, 1 sophomore, and a senior, with a sophomore and freshman as the key bench guys. That's 6 underclassmen in their 7-man rotation, and 4 of those 6 are freshmen..

    That's not accurate either. Darius Miller started 2 games in the SEC tournament, but doesn't start in the NCAAs, it's Teague, Lamb, MKG, Jones, and Davis with Miller and Wiltjer coming off the bench.

  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by Matches View Post
    Agreed. This idea that players don't improve while they're playing in the NBA - I have to wonder if some of the people who spout it follow the NBA at all. Players absolutely do improve while playing in the NBA. Competing against the best players in the world = getting better.

    I should qualify that - guys who are hard workers get better. JJ Redick is a FAR better player now than he was when he entered the NBA, for example, because he has worked his tail off. The idea that a guy can't develop while on an NBA bench is flatly disproven by the hundreds and hundreds of players who have done exactly that.

    AR by all accounts has a phenomenal work ethic - he will be just fine in the NBA.
    I think what many are saying is that people overrate the whole practicing against the best in the world. Yes, to start a season and in the off-season, I'm sure the practices are fierce but by game 40, I highly doubt players putting in 40 minutes a night are going to really challenge you in a practice on an off day. Again, someone brought up an example of a bench player struggling to find the happy medium between training hard and having enough energy to play well when he gets his chance which makes perfect sense to me.

    By all accounts, JJ did most of his improvements in the off-season. We saw similar improvements while at Duke with JJ as well. Players that will succeed will succeed either way it just comes down to would you like to develop while actually playing meaningful games and trying to win a title while making no money or would you like to more than likely ride the pine and make some money. Mocks have Rivers going anywhere from Portland to Denver or Dallas and I don't see much PT anywhere for him there. Nolan Smith can't get off the bench in Portland and I'd think Rivers would be behind Ewill and Nolan at this point and they don't even play.

  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukehky View Post
    That's not accurate either. Darius Miller started 2 games in the SEC tournament, but doesn't start in the NCAAs, it's Teague, Lamb, MKG, Jones, and Davis with Miller and Wiltjer coming off the bench.
    Fair enough. Even more of an argument against the idea that you need to build your championship teams around 3-4 year guys, as Lamb is an underclassman and Miller is a senior. In reality both play major minutes so it's kind of a moot point.

  15. #575
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    Gun jumping

    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Fair enough. Even more of an argument against the idea that you need to build your championship teams around 3-4 year guys, as Lamb is an underclassman and Miller is a senior. In reality both play major minutes so it's kind of a moot point.
    Kentucky hasn't won a championship yet, at least not an NCAA championship.

  16. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    Kentucky hasn't won a championship yet, at least not an NCAA championship.
    Fair enough. Chahge to championship-caliber. I think they qualify as that by any reasonable measure (#1 team in the country, Final Four, prohibitive favorite among the Final Four teams).

  17. #577
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Matches View Post
    K ignoring any prospects who might leave after a year = K doesn't recruit top talent.... You either recruit top talent and deal with early entry, or you recruit less-heralded players and hope to make a run once every 3-4 years.
    Totally agree with this. Prior to Kyrie coming, that's exactly what everyone was saying - that Coach K can't recruit elite talent any more. Some people blamed his commitment to the National Team, others suggested the game had evolved and he wasn't making the necessary changes. Now we have two one-and-done'rs in consecutive years and all of a sudden we're running an NBA factory that will never succeed in the NCAA tournament...

    Guys leaving early is just part of the game now. You need to have these guys, not just because you need their talent but because you need other, just-below-that-level-of-talent guys to also want to come to your school, and they're going to choose schools that they see putting guys in the NBA. Without the elite level talent you'd have to run a system like a mid-major team, relying on veterans who play together for four years and develop good chemistry, but as Matches said this only allows you to really make a run once every few years.

    Also, at the point that schools have to start recruiting these kids - their sophomore and junior years of high school - it's not 100% clear who is going to be a one year guy and who isn't. So you have to take some risks, make an assessment of how committed the players will be to their classwork during the time they are in school, and go from there. Mason could have been viewed as a potential one-and-doner; so could Kyle. Imagine if we had stopped recruiting them because of this.

  18. #578
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Nashville
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    Kentucky hasn't won a championship yet, at least not an NCAA championship.
    They didn't win the SEC championship either.

  19. #579
    Quote Originally Posted by COYS View Post
    They didn't win the SEC championship either.
    But they did win their regional championship, which is a significant accomplishment. I'm assuming that's why the caveat was added. In any case, UK has certainly built a championship caliber team off underclassmen.

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by COYS View Post
    They didn't win the SEC championship either.
    I believe the SEC credits the regular season winner.

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