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  1. #761
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    Wheat's obsession is with traditional low-post scoring moves. They must be initiated by an entry pass to a big who has his man sealed off, then the big must make a post move and score. An alley-oop dunk or fast break layup does not count. If a team doesn't have a guy that does this 10-15 times per game, they cannot win the National Championship (which is kind of interesting since Kentucky didn't really have that this year either).

    The way that Duke generates scoring inside is just different from UNC's. Whether we should try to use Mason more like a traditional big is up for debate I suppose. As for comparisons to Sullinger and Robinson, I don't know if Mason can bench press as much as those guys but he did play them head to head really well, back in November when the whole team had things clicking (which feels like a lifetime ago).
    Interestingly, the last 3 national champions haven't dumped it into the post like UNC does. Kentucky, UConn, and Duke were "outside in" scoring teams. Kentucky happened to have a guy who could score with his back to the basket, but their approach to scoring was primarily to run, shoot 3s, and attack off the dribble from the perimeter.

    I agree with Wheat that we underutilized our post guys this year. I didn't agree as to why, but we definitely got too one-dimensional. However, I don't think being an outside in team is necessarily a problem. Being an outside in team that doesn't dribble or pass well IS a problem.

    There are lots of ways to score points effectively, and lots of ways to have balance. We definitely lacked balance in terms of style as the season progressed. We had much better balance early on (more passing, scoring in a wider variety of ways).

  2. #762
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke79UNLV77 View Post
    Mason did not just score on alley-oop dunks and fast break layups this year. He scored on hooks with both hands, some power moves, a few drop steps, and some drives starting within about 6 feet of the basket. That was the majority of his game this year. He didn't come to Duke with those moves and wasn't a big scorer in high school, but he definitely improved over the off-season. I think we got away from that part of our offense for much of February, but came back to it late. Unfortunately, our guards stopped playing well. Mason isn't weak and did play well against Sullinger and Robinson, but those guys are really, really physically strong.
    Exactly. I was very impressed with Mason's development of a go-to post move (the right/left running hook) this year as opposed to being more of a above the rim player in previous seasons. Letís also not forget that he was HORRENDOUS at the stripe the first 2/3 of the season, and really picked up his FT percentage late. Yes he did hit a slump, but for the most part he was huge for us all year, and a lot of it was due to rebounding and improvements he made with back to the basket moves.

    Should he stay next year I would really like to see us utilize him in transition more. If he commits to running the court, and we have a quick, pass-first PG (which we do right now in Cook), he could be very dangerous in transition. I think Mason's improvement offensively next year (should he stay) would revolve around having a passer with the capability to get him the ball when/where he needs it. If Cook really works on his D over the summer, he would be the obvious choice for this. However, Tyler or Seth (if K decides to run the Seth as point strategy again next year) could also work on post and transition passing over the summer and provide this as well.

  3. #763
    Quote Originally Posted by Bojangles4Eva View Post
    Exactly. I was very impressed with Mason's development of a go-to post move (the right/left running hook) this year as opposed to being more of a above the rim player in previous seasons. Letís also not forget that he was HORRENDOUS at the stripe the first 2/3 of the season, and really picked up his FT percentage late. Yes he did hit a slump, but for the most part he was huge for us all year, and a lot of it was due to rebounding and improvements he made with back to the basket moves.
    I'll say that I was glad he showed development of the jump hook, but I wouldn't say I was impressed. With his athletic ability and strength, I'd have hoped for more developed offensive moves by his junior year. He's showing development, but I'm not sure that developing 1-2 moves in 3 years should be impressive. Hopefully if he stays the development continues next year to add more fluidity and a few more moves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bojangles4Eva View Post
    Should he stay next year I would really like to see us utilize him in transition more. If he commits to running the court, and we have a quick, pass-first PG (which we do right now in Cook), he could be very dangerous in transition. I think Mason's improvement offensively next year (should he stay) would revolve around having a passer with the capability to get him the ball when/where he needs it. If Cook really works on his D over the summer, he would be the obvious choice for this. However, Tyler or Seth (if K decides to run the Seth as point strategy again next year) could also work on post and transition passing over the summer and provide this as well.
    I'm less concerned about finding ways to use him in transition (if we run and he runs, he'll get his opportunities). I'm more concerned with him expanding his game so that he has more ways to score in the half court. Transition baskets are harder to come by in the latter rounds of the tournament, so we need him to be able to consistently score in the half court.

  4. #764
    Quote Originally Posted by Bojangles4Eva View Post
    Exactly. I was very impressed with Mason's development of a go-to post move (the right/left running hook) this year as opposed to being more of a above the rim player in previous seasons. Letís also not forget that he was HORRENDOUS at the stripe the first 2/3 of the season, and really picked up his FT percentage late. Yes he did hit a slump, but for the most part he was huge for us all year, and a lot of it was due to rebounding and improvements he made with back to the basket moves.

    Should he stay next year I would really like to see us utilize him in transition more. If he commits to running the court, and we have a quick, pass-first PG (which we do right now in Cook), he could be very dangerous in transition. I think Mason's improvement offensively next year (should he stay) would revolve around having a passer with the capability to get him the ball when/where he needs it. If Cook really works on his D over the summer, he would be the obvious choice for this. However, Tyler or Seth (if K decides to run the Seth as point strategy again next year) could also work on post and transition passing over the summer and provide this as well.
    If he does stay, and I hope he does, I expect him to be a scoring machine from the free throw line!

  5. #765
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I'll say that I was glad he showed development of the jump hook, but I wouldn't say I was impressed. With his athletic ability and strength, I'd have hoped for more developed offensive moves by his junior year. He's showing development, but I'm not sure that developing 1-2 moves in 3 years should be impressive. Hopefully if he stays the development continues next year to add more fluidity and a few more moves.



    I'm less concerned about finding ways to use him in transition (if we run and he runs, he'll get his opportunities). I'm more concerned with him expanding his game so that he has more ways to score in the half court. Transition baskets are harder to come by in the latter rounds of the tournament, so we need him to be able to consistently score in the half court.
    Though Mason is regarded as an athletic big, I think some of his slowness in development has a lot to do with just not being all that fluid. He does seem to stuggle with balance which is probably why his moves are relatively slow. He seems to be one of those guys that has to gather himself before going toward the basket with any sort of move. Contrast that with someone like Zeller who was able to move with the ball in post position immediately after receiving it. It may sound simple, but if there is a lack of balance then it's got to be difficult to get the proper footwork. Notice that sometimes Mason looks very strong in his moves and sometimes his feet look out of place. My point is, I think the issue of balance mostly has to improve with time rather than teaching. So it probably explains the slow yet positive development in his play in the paint. Guys like Zeller & Sullinger just already had it.

  6. #766
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    McAdoo is returning...so says insidecarolina tonight.

    Teams don't have to pound it inside a majority of the time to be successful, but it is my belief that teams are unlikely to go far without a back to the basket threat inside.

    Zoubek was not a big offensive threat, but he played well enough that teams had to respect him. He played strong his senior year with his back to the basket on a championship team that was dedicated to the wings.

    Put Mason in place of Zoubek, and I doubt that team wins the title.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  7. #767
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    McAdoo is returning...so says insidecarolina tonight.

    Teams don't have to pound it inside a majority of the time to be successful, but it is my belief that teams are unlikely to go far without a back to the basket threat inside.

    Zoubek was not a big offensive threat, but he played well enough that teams had to respect him. He played strong his senior year with his back to the basket on a championship team that was dedicated to the wings.

    Put Mason in place of Zoubek, and I doubt that team wins the title.
    Duke wouldn't have won the title without Z's rebounding, defense, and energy, but Mason this past year was more of a back to the basket post scoring threat than Z ever was. Heck, so was Miles.

  8. #768
    Quote Originally Posted by Bojangles4Eva View Post
    If Cook really works on his D over the summer, he would be the obvious choice for this.
    Don't mean this towards you directly...in fact that's quite the point, you are simply one of many saying this. But this is the exact same things that were said about Cook last year. I just don't see it.

    As for Mason (and the focus of this thread) I'd just love to see him catch the ball and not take that unncessary dribble. Miles finally got it this year, I hope Mason gets it next year.

  9. #769
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorp4me View Post
    Don't mean this towards you directly...in fact that's quite the point, you are simply one of many saying this. But this is the exact same things that were said about Cook last year. I just don't see it.

    As for Mason (and the focus of this thread) I'd just love to see him catch the ball and not take that unncessary dribble. Miles finally got it this year, I hope Mason gets it next year.
    Yes, except Cook had to shut it down last summer because of his knee, and didn't even start practicing again until early in the season. Give the kid a chance.

  10. #770
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    20 Minutes From The Heaven That Is Cameron Indoor
    For those that like to read the tea leaves in tweets, below is Mason's most recent tweet. Note "My PG" Also Happy Birthday to Baby Badass Tyler Thornton!

    mason plumlee ‏ @masonplumlee
    Reply RetweetedRetweet
    Happy birthday to my PG @tythornton3 and my girl @csimps6

    "[T]he tarnished Tar Heels that bear little resemblance to the revered program built by Dean Smith."- Ashville Times
    "UNC and the NCAA are trying to conceal that the fraud was specifically designed to pad the transcripts of varsity athletes" - Bloomberg

  11. #771
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Albemarle, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Interestingly, the last 3 national champions haven't dumped it into the post like UNC does. Kentucky, UConn, and Duke were "outside in" scoring teams. Kentucky happened to have a guy who could score with his back to the basket, but their approach to scoring was primarily to run, shoot 3s, and attack off the dribble from the perimeter.

    I agree with Wheat that we underutilized our post guys this year. I didn't agree as to why, but we definitely got too one-dimensional. However, I don't think being an outside in team is necessarily a problem. Being an outside in team that doesn't dribble or pass well IS a problem.

    There are lots of ways to score points effectively, and lots of ways to have balance. We definitely lacked balance in terms of style as the season progressed. We had much better balance early on (more passing, scoring in a wider variety of ways).
    I wouldn't call any of those teams "outside in" except Duke. This year UK was a very versatile offense doing it from preety much everywhere but in particular by attacking the paint with guards and forwards and mid-range shots. UConn was all about letting Kemba ad-lib and create the offense by doing whatever he could and letting the bigs get all the "trash points". Duke relied offensively on screens from Lance and Brian to set up open jumpers for Kyle, Jon, and Nolan and also excellent offensive rebounding for more open shots from the perimeter.

  12. #772
    Quote Originally Posted by JNort View Post
    I wouldn't call any of those teams "outside in" except Duke. This year UK was a very versatile offense doing it from preety much everywhere but in particular by attacking the paint with guards and forwards and mid-range shots. UConn was all about letting Kemba ad-lib and create the offense by doing whatever he could and letting the bigs get all the "trash points". Duke relied offensively on screens from Lance and Brian to set up open jumpers for Kyle, Jon, and Nolan and also excellent offensive rebounding for more open shots from the perimeter.
    What you just described is the definition of "outside in" (i.e., creating offense primarily from the perimeter rather than primarily dumping the ball into the post and working "inside out"). There are different versions of playing "outside in" as you have mentioned. But both UConn and Kentucky played "outside in."

  13. #773
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    There is a statement in one of the articles linked on the front page that I hate, but it rings very true...

    Unlike Leslie, Plumlee is much closer to reaching his ceiling. As he proved by going 9 for 9 from the floor while scoring 19 points with 12 rebounds and three blocks in the Blue Devils’ NCAA tournament loss to Lehigh last month, he has the skills to be a dominant low post presence. He’s just never been able to do it on a consistent basis.
    Returning to Duke for his senior season would give the 6-11 center an opportunity to change that perception. Then again, as former teammate Kyle Singler learned, draft stock can drop just as easily as it can rise.
    If Plumlee is projected to be safely entrenched in the middle of the first round, where many mock drafts have him, then it wouldn’t make sense for him to leave millions of dollars on the table to return to Duke and play for free.
    http://acc.blogs.starnewsonline.com/29781/29781/

    There is another thought in there that I wonder about..
    The fact is that the decision to stay or go is a highly personal one that has little or nothing to do with whether the player is physically ready to handle the rigors of NBA competition. Two-thirds of those who enter the draft as underclassmen, including the three newest former Tar Heels, still have holes in their game that can only be filled by another season or two in college.
    Well is that really true? I mean if you have holes in your game now, and you decide to go make the money, who's to say you can't improve just as well by playing tough in practice in the NBA? Or elect to go to the D-League AFTER being drafted? Hell, then you'd be making your money and be getting lots of minutes, as opposed to either making your money and sitting on the bench or making no money and playing lots of minutes. And then of course there is the Europe option. The thought that a player can only improve by being in college is so common it's cliche, but is it actually true?
    Mmmm, BBQ!

  14. #774
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    There is a statement in one of the articles linked on the front page that I hate, but it rings very true...


    http://acc.blogs.starnewsonline.com/29781/29781/

    There is another thought in there that I wonder about..
    Well is that really true? I mean if you have holes in your game now, and you decide to go make the money, who's to say you can't improve just as well by playing tough in practice in the NBA? Or elect to go to the D-League AFTER being drafted? Hell, then you'd be making your money and be getting lots of minutes, as opposed to either making your money and sitting on the bench or making no money and playing lots of minutes. And then of course there is the Europe option. The thought that a player can only improve by being in college is so common it's cliche, but is it actually true?
    I actually disagree with the assertion that Mason is projected to be solidly in the middle of the 1st round. Nearly everything I've seen has him projected at the end of the 1st round or the beginning of the 2nd round. That's the danger zone, because getting a guaranteed contract only happens for the 1st rounders.

    And I think many if not most people in the know are of the belief that additional years in college do little to prepare you for the NBA. The style, speed, skill, and athleticism at the NBA level are so far above the college game that it's really not useful. For example, the author mentions Mason's 9 for 9 game and the need for consistency. Well, that 9 for 9 came against a Lehigh team that was completely overmatched physically inside. In the NBA, Mason isn't a standout athletically, so those 9 for 9 games wouldn't be there.

  15. #775
    Perhaps a little relationship advice for Mason and his tweets from a married guy in his 40s who doesn't tweet. You might want to tweet happy birthday to your girl first, then a separate tweet for your point guard later. Combining them and listing her second is bound to lead to trouble.

  16. #776
    Don't know if anyone has reported this yet but NBADraft.net moved Mason from their 2012 mock draft to their 2013 mock draft. Interesting...

  17. #777
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I actually disagree with the assertion that Mason is projected to be solidly in the middle of the 1st round. Nearly everything I've seen has him projected at the end of the 1st round or the beginning of the 2nd round. That's the danger zone, because getting a guaranteed contract only happens for the 1st rounders.

    And I think many if not most people in the know are of the belief that additional years in college do little to prepare you for the NBA. The style, speed, skill, and athleticism at the NBA level are so far above the college game that it's really not useful. For example, the author mentions Mason's 9 for 9 game and the need for consistency. Well, that 9 for 9 came against a Lehigh team that was completely overmatched physically inside. In the NBA, Mason isn't a standout athletically, so those 9 for 9 games wouldn't be there.
    Generally speaking, I agree. Additional years in college can be useful in some cases, though--but more because a player needs to bulk up/get stronger to be able to take the beating in the NBA or because he needs to demonstrate a particular skill (say, shooting or defense) at an NBA-potential level to show that he is draft-worthy and hasn't really had a full opportunity yet than because of anything he will actually learn from another year of playing college ball.

  18. #778

    Another interesting item in the 2013 mock draft

    Quote Originally Posted by CameronCrazy06 View Post
    Don't know if anyone has reported this yet but NBADraft.net moved Mason from their 2012 mock draft to their 2013 mock draft. Interesting...
    Andre Dawkins listed at 41 in the same 2013 mock draft.

  19. #779
    Quote Originally Posted by MCFinARL View Post
    Generally speaking, I agree. Additional years in college can be useful in some cases, though--but more because a player needs to bulk up/get stronger to be able to take the beating in the NBA or because he needs to demonstrate a particular skill (say, shooting or defense) at an NBA-potential level to show that he is draft-worthy and hasn't really had a full opportunity yet than because of anything he will actually learn from another year of playing college ball.
    To clarify: if you're certain to go in the 1st round, then returning to college most likely won't help you. If you're a questionable 1st rounder, I think it makes sense to return to try to solidify your 1st round status.

    The other scenario where I can see staying in college helping is for maturity purposes. Spending another year in a low-risk environment where (hopefully) the coaching staff can help you get more emotionally ready to live/play on your own can make it less likely that you flame out.

    But for most guys a year in college doesn't really do anything but subtract a year's worth of pay.

  20. #780
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Quote Originally Posted by devilsadvocate85 View Post
    Andre Dawkins listed at 41 in the same 2013 mock draft.
    What a goofy site. They also list Dre as "likely returning" for 2012. Well I'm sure they have that much right.
    They also list Mason still as 50/50 for this year, which as of now is also correct.
    Mmmm, BBQ!

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