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  1. #221
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Isn't it time to maybe say what is the truth...We were just not a very good team and were very overrated.

    I remember on a thread asking who you thought would be the final 4 teams, many posters had Duke and many posters had Duke winning it all.Were they watching the same team that I was?. A team that lost to Miami and FSU at home, got creamed by UNC at home, struggled against VA Tech, struggled in the second half against Wake and St. John's..the last 3 teams were not even in the tournament.

    I think that because we were Duke and had Coach K we got a number 2 seed. Does anyone really believe that at the end of the year Duke was a top 8 team? They were not even a top 12 team.

    I know a lot of you think that Duke had a very good season, there are some who think that Duke had a ,"great", season. I certainly respect your opinion and hope that you respect mine when I say that in my opinion Duke had a disappointing season and was probably the most overrated team in the country.

    If Rivers and Mason leave, next year could be worse.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by dukelifer View Post
    I doubt that this is the most embarrassing loss in his opinion. I am sure it would have been much tougher if he did not have the most wins of any coach or 4 national championships. He been coaching long enough to know that on any given night a decent team can take out a more talented team. The difference between a 15 and a 2 is not what it used to be. Yesterday proved that twice.
    (bolded) is why I don't think this is "the most embarrassing loss"... a #2 seed losing to a #15 seed. In the last few years, with the changed landscape of college basketball (with all of those early entrants to the NBA), the top teams, who get the "best" players, don't get to keep those "best" players for more than a couple of years, at most. The "so-called" mid-majors get really good, sound players, and build a team over the course of their 4 years. So to me, yes, the difference between a 15 and a 2 "team" is definitely not like it was 10+ years ago.

    Lehigh is a very good team. When I saw the brackets, my only thought was "oh no... here we go". So I'm not surprised that Lehigh played so well, and also not surprised (unfortunately) that Duke struggled. But as least, Duke had a chance to win at the end.

    Next year.... GO DUKE!!!

  3. #223
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by CajunDevil View Post
    I partially agree that a 15 over a 2 is not what it used to be because I think lower seeded teams are better now than they used to be, however it had been 11 years since it happened twice yesterday. So, not sure how to interpret that...

    I really don't care whether this is the most embarrassing or the 5th or 10th embarrassing. I'm more interested in where we go from here.
    Well, in addition to lower seeded teams being better than they used to be, I feel like this year, frankly, there just weren't a lot of really outstanding teams. Kentucky looks like it might be an outstanding team. Some other teams many people thought would be juggernauts before the season began, like OSU or UNC, have been good but not great so far, though they still have a chance to rise to the occasion in the tournament if they can. Others, like Michigan State, started rough but have improved as the season goes on. But overall I think the gap between lower seeds and most of the higher seeded teams just isn't as big this year as it is some years.

    In the current era, where big-program coaches face the challenge of making a team quickly out of a mix of 1- or 2-year players and 3- or 4-year players, while mid-majors work mostly with 4-year players, the lower-seeded teams can make up for much of what they lack in pure talent with the team chemistry that is built from years of playing with the same guys, knowing what they do best, knowing what they are likely to do in a given situation and how to capitalize on it. This ultimately means not only that the lower seeded teams are better but that the top teams aren't as good. It varies from year to year depending on how many big-conference programs have a critical mass of older players and/or mature short-term players who blend well.
    Edit: I see gep made my point more quickly and more succinctly while I was writing my post.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by MCFinARL View Post
    Well, in addition to lower seeded teams being better than they used to be, I feel like this year, frankly, there just weren't a lot of really outstanding teams. Kentucky looks like it might be an outstanding team. Some other teams many people thought would be juggernauts before the season began, like OSU or UNC, have been good but not great so far, though they still have a chance to rise to the occasion in the tournament if they can. Others, like Michigan State, started rough but have improved as the season goes on. But overall I think the gap between lower seeds and most of the higher seeded teams just isn't as big this year as it is some years.

    In the current era, where big-program coaches face the challenge of making a team quickly out of a mix of 1- or 2-year players and 3- or 4-year players, while mid-majors work mostly with 4-year players, the lower-seeded teams can make up for much of what they lack in pure talent with the team chemistry that is built from years of playing with the same guys, knowing what they do best, knowing what they are likely to do in a given situation and how to capitalize on it. This ultimately means not only that the lower seeded teams are better but that the top teams aren't as good. It varies from year to year depending on how many big-conference programs have a critical mass of older players and/or mature short-term players who blend well.
    Edit: I see gep made my point more quickly and more succinctly while I was writing my post.
    Thanks... MCFinARL. Maybe more quickly, but I don't know about more succinctly. Your comment (bolded, especially underlined) to me is one of the keys that gives the mid-major a big advantage.

  5. #225
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by jipops View Post
    For you maybe, but not for me. When has UNC ever taken such a flawed, overachieving team to the tournament as a 2 seed nursing a key injury? How underachieving was that '99 heels team with all that front court talent only to be crushed on the boards by Weber St (Haywood one board in that game).

    Getting so much out of this team over the course of the season in many ways left us open to 2 vs. 15 type upset. We've seen many teams with similar struggles end up in the tournament as something like a 6 seed, if at all (see 2010).
    I really don't think it's fair to call Duke a "flawed, overachieving" team. I think, if anything, they under achieved myself.

    This was a very good team overall, good players, that just didn't adjust very well late in the season as teams pressured the perimiter.

    As for '99, it was an odd game and "the show" went off. UNC got beat. Stuff happens in the tourney.

    There's really no reason to dwell on an injury and what ifs. It would be easy to play this game. UNC has had plenty over the years that definitely affected their title hopes, including this one, but to be champions, teams have to deal with anything that happens, or else somebody who does gets the nets around their necks.

    That's just the way it is.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    That's just the way it is.
    Oh Wheat, so Wheatnessissity. Thank you for being Wheaty.

    It's just sports after all.

  7. #227
    As always, I am disappointed for the team but never disappointed in them. Lehigh played a great game and deserves congratulations. Thank you team for another season of games to watch. I wish there had been a few more to watch but that's the way it goes. Thank you, Miles, for 4 wonderful years. Best of luck in the future.

    I'm grateful to Norfolk State. Living in Big 12 territory, the news of Missou's loss dominated the news and there wasn't as much about the Duke loss. My brackets are busted - so now I'm rooting for all the underdogs!

  8. #228
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Rosenrosen View Post
    I guess we know the answer to question regarding how important Ryan really was to this team. Frustrating final two weeks to an otherwise very nice year. Plenty to be proud of and hopefully something solid to build on for next year.
    Ryan played a lot of minutes and was 1-8 from the field with one rebound in our last game against UNC in what might have been his least effective game as a Blue Devil. I'm still holding out hope that he can play during his senior year the way he played at the beginning of the 2011-2012 season, where he showed great promise. I think if he would just put a bit more arch on his shot a higher percentage of them would go in and he would learn to trust himself more in the pressure moments. It looks like he doesn't really believe his shot is going in when the game is tight. He definitely has the potential to be a first or second team all-ACC player if he could improve this aspect of his game. I'm pulling for him.

  9. #229
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New York, NY
    if AR makes people better--as has been implied--how, exactly? He breaks down teams individually better than anyone we have, but I just don't see it translating into easy buckets for teammates. Since I don't think he's lottery in a deep draft, I think he sticks.

    Coach K is terrific, but he didn't have to play the cards he was dealt. that would be mike d'antoni. K gets to recruit. If we have missing pieces, it's ultimately his fault. I'm also wondering which kinds of teams he excels with. Coaching Kobe is different from coaching Thornton, like coaching against Argentina is diff than coaching against lehigh. regardless, this team's deficits seemed more about psychology than strategy, but it's also disciplined enough not to reveal the problems.

    I'm not sure an additional year will help Mason in his draft stock; I hope he sticks around, but KI getting injured and leaving early likely cost him a top 10 payday last year (Irving made him look like a star).

  10. #230

    And So It Goes

    After pausing long enough to let my emotions settle, here's my take:
    Lehigh, a #15 seed with inferior talent out-competed our team. They were more focused, intense, and hungry than the Blue Devils. I believe that this first round loss was ultimately about our emotional health as a team. Lehigh showed up aggressive and fearless. We showed up disconnected and flat. This Duke team did not possess a definitive, collective will to do everything in its power to win. The resolve and trust required to function dynamically and definitively as a team was not present. I believe that the coaching collective must absorb the responsibility for not developing a team chemistry and identity that can rise to the challenge of an adversary that is completely committed to denying our advantages.

    We did not take it to Lehigh. We did not take it to Temple. We did not take it to Miami. We did not take it to Virginia Tech. They took it to us. I think Carolina and Florida State were better and stronger than us. Throw those games out. Earlier in the year, we rose to the occasion. After the victory at Carolina (hoops highlight of the year by far), we did regress.

    It's not a skills thing or a talent thing, it's an emotional thing. We weren't a fist. We weren't a cohesive, committed team. We were a bevy of guards and an inadequate front line that didn't come together as a team. I believe our bigs were under utilized. Mason Plumlee is highly skilled. He has the tools to go pro, but his performance suggests staying. Ryan Kelly remains an enigma to me. He has the skills to dominate. He has not delivered one single dominating performance. His absence and our team's performance without him suggests that he is the lynchpin to our gameplan. Kyle Singler is iron. Is Ryan Kelly?

    Our guard play was frustrating. Individuals functioning independantly. Austin Rivers delivered. Tyler Thorton brought a focus and a committment to defense and and a degree of leadership that this team desperately needs. Seth Curry did a lot of positive things, but ultimately his potential was not realized on a night in and night out level. Seth under-performed based on his level of skill and talent. Bad chemistry vis-a-vis Rivers and Thorton? Again, the molding of a team falls on the shoulders of the coaching collective. I think the coaching collective has failed with repsect to guard play.

    Andre Dawkins is a shooter. We all want Andre to succeed and score. His game has not evolved. Is that on Andre or the coaching staff? Time will tell. I have been encouraged when Andre has attacked the basket. If he can stroke the outside shot AND go to the hoop with confidence and success, he will be unstoppable. He has that potential. It is up to him to deliver that desire to maximize his potential. On both sides of the floor.

    Miles: I feel for him. He did improve and grow this year. Did he maximize his potential? No. I believe he offrered a much more dynamic offensive skill set than we capitalized on. He did not maximize his potential. He is a phenomenal athelete with the offensive repetoire to deliver a double double every game. We weren't able to create that for him. Again, I see this as a coaching issue. I am happy with his improvement and relish that, but we just lost to a #15 seeded Lehigh team.

    After watching that game I can't help thinking that we should have done better. I put that on the coaches. To prepare and be ready, that's their job. We weren't ready and Lehigh spanked us. They out-competed us. We weren't together and the team was not on the same page.

    We have had so much success. The 2011-2012 Blue Devils did not demonstrate the confidece or team trust that it takes to win when challenged. We must correct that. Does Coach K have the energy and incentive to demand that? If not, then let's find that person to lead our program forward with the results that Duke Basketball deserves.

  11. #231
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuitboy View Post
    Does Coach K have the energy and incentive to demand that? If not, then let's find that person to lead our program forward with the results that Duke Basketball deserves.

    EASY there, I see where that's going! We are fortunate to have not just a great coach, but one the most legendary coaches to ever step foot onto a court. All time wins record, 4 national titles (one being only 2 years ago), 8 championship games, gold medals,coaches of the year (national,acc,naismith), the list goes on and on. There isn't a single coach out there today that has the accomplishments that K does and I doubt there ever will. A coach like K comes around once a generation and we should thank our lucky stars he's still performing at the level he is 32 years later. Every time we step out on the court, no matter who we play, we have an advantage just by being coached by him. This was a tough lose but Coach K is only human and he did a lot with what he had this past season and my hat is off to him and the staff.

  12. #232
    Any assault on a coach with these credentials is plain insane. Something went woefully wrong but reaching that kind of conclusion is without any basis in reason. We are only 2 years removed from a 4th national title followed by a Sweet 16 appearance in 2011. Duke losing to Lehigh is still unbelieveable to me but I can't go to that extreme and call myself a rational person. We need more players and athletes to be sure and there was a talent gap this year regardless of what we would like to admit. But in my mind, Coach K is the greatest coach in the history of college basketball at this point.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuitboy View Post

    We did not take it to Lehigh. We did not take it to Temple. We did not take it to Miami. We did not take it to Virginia Tech. They took it to us. I think Carolina and Florida State were better and stronger than us. Throw those games out. Earlier in the year, we rose to the occasion. After the victory at Carolina (hoops highlight of the year by far), we did regress.

    Again, the molding of a team falls on the shoulders of the coaching collective. I think the coaching collective has failed with repsect to guard play.
    To prepare and be ready, that's their job. We weren't ready and Lehigh spanked us. They out-competed us. We weren't together and the team was not on the same page.

    Does Coach K have the energy and incentive to demand that? If not, then let's find that person to lead our program forward with the results that Duke Basketball deserves.
    Virginia Tech took it to us? Hmmm- I thought we beat them twice. That said- everyone takes it to us. We also beat Fla State late in the year on the road. What happened this year was a loss of Chemistry with the loss of Ryan. Not sure why it hinged on him- but somehow it did. The team had a bad stretch and a hard nose team beat them. Lehigh was not inferior. They are a solid team who is used to winning. But the question you pose is what to do now. Should we swap out a coach who somehow had the energy and incentive to motivate a team of "alarmingly un-athletic" players to a NC two years ago or who motivated a bunch of high-paid pros to come together to win a World Championship and the Olympics? Sure makes sense to me. The game has clearly passed him by. (This of course is sarcasm for those who cannot tell)
    dukelifer

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Glad your accident was relatively minor... And yes that was one crazy game.
    Thanks Wheat, appreciate it. Really scary stuff. I recall a friend had a Weber State t-shirt shipped in after that game, which was funny at the time, but not a look I would have gone for. Maybe it's that I'm not from down there and don't live down there now, but I never quite get into that sort of thing -- I never owned a GTHC t-shirt, same as I only wear Mets shirts and never anti-Yankees shirts up here now -- but I think I'm firmly in the minority.

  15. #235
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO

    Cognitive Dissonance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuitboy View Post
    We have had so much success. The 2011-2012 Blue Devils did not demonstrate the confidece or team trust that it takes to win when challenged. We must correct that. Does Coach K have the energy and incentive to demand that? If not, then let's find that person to lead our program forward with the results that Duke Basketball deserves.
    Ancient Pentagon Proverb: "The perfect is the enemy of the good."

    "Cognitive dissonance is a discomfort caused by holding conflicting cognitions (e.g., ideas, beliefs, values, emotional reactions) simultaneously." Contrasting the belief that Coach K must go with the record of the past five years must be very painful to you:

    • 90+ weeks in the AP top ten,
    • three ACC championships,
    • one National Championship,
    • 84% winning percentage in all games,
    • 79% winning percentage in ACC games.

    While I feel your pain, I am happy I don't share it.

    I know "every day is an audition," but WRT Duke basketball, isn't this a bit far-fetched?

    sagegrouse

  16. #236
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    On the couch
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Ancient Pentagon Proverb: "The perfect is the enemy of the good."

    "Cognitive dissonance is a discomfort caused by holding conflicting cognitions (e.g., ideas, beliefs, values, emotional reactions) simultaneously." Contrasting the belief that Coach K must go with the record of the past five years must be very painful to you:

    • 90+ weeks in the AP top ten,
    • three ACC championships,
    • one National Championship,
    • 84% winning percentage in all games,
    • 79% winning percentage in ACC games.

    While I feel your pain, I am happy I don't share it.

    I know "every day is an audition," but WRT Duke basketball, isn't this a bit far-fetched?

    sagegrouse
    Well you knew it was going to happen. A "disappointing season" and folks start questioning K's ability to adapt to the game.... come on folks, REALLY? I know we live in a time where only immediate gratification is acceptable, and the "what have you done for me lately" way of looking at things dominates the psyche, but again, REALLY.

    Sage is right, if not kind in saying it is a bit far fetched to be questioning K at this point.

    Now, having said that, I will say that this was not one of his finer coaching efforts IMO, and I only say that because this team never really achieved it's full potential.

    I FULLY believe that K did everything in his power to pull this team together, but it never really happened, at least to the high standards that he has established from his own success.

    Was it his "fault" that certain players never reached a level of consistency that they needed? I would say most likely not, but it was his responsibility to make that happen.

    So, in the end Coach K is responsible for the good, the bad, and the ugly.

    But if anyone thinks that he has "lost it" I would ask them to take a couple of deep breaths, and then try to find a coach with 1/10th of the success that K has had who didn't have a year now and then when things didn't quite come together as well as they could have.

    Let's try to avoid the trap of becoming petulant and spoiled, and just realize that "hey, this was one of those years" and yes "stuff happens", and move on.

    Off the soap box now!

  17. #237
    Thank you Miles. You are wrong that everyone will remember your "last game" more than others. I won't nor will many others. It was an honor to watch you grow to a man on the basketball court. However magnified these games are, they are at most 40 minutes from a day that has 24 hours. How you live your life the other 23 hours and 20 minutes is how everyone will remember you.

    Thank you to the entire team. You improved on defense, our offense got a little wonky these last weeks and let us down in this particular game and a couple others. Entirely fixable for next year.

    Thank you to Coach K for being not only the best coach to ever set foot on a court, but a man of integrity.

  18. #238

    I am curious blue...

    Tried to post this yesterday, but don't think it went through so apologies if it did. Late in the game, when it became necessary to foul, three of the players on the court had four fouls and Tyler picked up his fifth in that situation. Austin had three fouls then and only had one to give because he was apparently the main offensive focus at that point. We also seemed to wait a long time for the offense/defense substitution pattern and when we did, Miles was left behind for Silent G (who had not really been a part of the game at that point). The first breakaway occurred soon after. Several times we seemed to have only one real scoring option on the court at a time which had to have helped Lehigh defensively. And the one thing they had no answer for (the Plumlees inside), we avoided for long periods of time. I have always believed that if you had made half your missed free throws, that is enough to make a difference and that might have been true here, too. Having said all this, Lehigh deserved the win and should be congratulated. It was just a game and there's more important stuff for us to do for our fellow man. But I do want us to win them all...even in football. This is my first post so be gentle.

  19. #239
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    Ryan played a lot of minutes and was 1-8 from the field with one rebound in our last game against UNC in what might have been his least effective game as a Blue Devil. I'm still holding out hope that he can play during his senior year the way he played at the beginning of the 2011-2012 season, where he showed great promise. I think if he would just put a bit more arch on his shot a higher percentage of them would go in and he would learn to trust himself more in the pressure moments. It looks like he doesn't really believe his shot is going in when the game is tight. He definitely has the potential to be a first or second team all-ACC player if he could improve this aspect of his game. I'm pulling for him.
    What are you talking about?

    Are you aware of the fact that for the season Ryan was our most accurate 3-point shooter? Better than Curry, better than Rivers, better than Dawkins, better than anybody else.

    And maybe my memory is sketchy but it seems to me that he made a pretty important jumper in the game against UNC at Chapel Hill........
    Failure is always an option.

  20. #240
    I would be the last to ever say a negative thing about Coach K. I think he runs a basketball program like no other. I do have to wonder where we are talent level wise. I have watched a lot of games, and it seems like the guards and forwards from "lesser" programs would play circles around our kids. I think the Plumlees were our most consistent players all year. I know I'm probably in the minority here, but I just don't want to see Seth Curry as being one of our starters next year. I think Rivers did a fine job for us. I have read where other posters thought he was a "ball hog", but I really feel he tried to create offense when there wasn't any to create. I know the 3-point shot is a major part of our offense, but there comes a time when you need to drive the lane and go to the basket, and Austin did that for us. We just can't put the program on the shoulders of a freshman. This team lacked leadership that we've always had in the past. One thing about it, we have the best Coach in basketball, and he'll get us on the right track.

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