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  1. #261
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cabbagetown, Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Kedsy is right. Not only do people get stronger and stronger through their twenties, but athletes develop their coordination at different rates, and many don't get fully coordinated until their twenties, especially the long, tall characters that have to get control of their limbs. Yeah, Grant Hill and all that -- but these are the top one percent of the top one percent of all athletes.

    As a non-athlete, I could not touch the basketball rim until I was 26 or so but could still do it ten years later. And, believe me, I was no Spud Webb.

    sagegrouse
    'These days, when the coyotes come around, I can still move quickly'
    Funny that the athlete (Grant Hill) in your post is dismissed, but your point is made around a non-athlete (you). Great argument.

    Here's an argument: Shaq. That's a frame that's about as hard to coordinate as any, but the 19 year old version was much more at it's physical peak than the 26-28 year-old version.

  2. #262
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    San Francisco
    Quote Originally Posted by Listen to Quants View Post

    As an aside, perhaps the best way to deal with the Buzz is to have Murphy either take him into the post and lean on him or run him around on the outside (as far as either can be done within the offense). Tire him out (Murphy too, of course, but Duke could thrive without Murphy more easily than UCLA could thrive without Bazz). Obviously the same strategy would apply to Sulaimon (running outside) and Hairston (lean on him) if/when they get stuck with a super player. "The best defense is a tiring offense" my 2 cents.

    When are we playing UCLA?

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Bay Area Duke Fan View Post
    When are we playing UCLA?
    Ah, that was the in the "unclear hypothetical" case. But, how about in the NCAA finals?

  4. #264
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    Funny that the athlete (Grant Hill) in your post is dismissed, but your point is made around a non-athlete (you). Great argument.

    Here's an argument: Shaq. That's a frame that's about as hard to coordinate as any, but the 19 year old version was much more at it's physical peak than the 26-28 year-old version.
    I remember 19 year old Shaq getting completely shut down by Christian Laettner in the game at Duke. I couldn't imagine that happening to 27 year old Shaq.

  5. #265
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I remember 19 year old Shaq getting completely shut down by Christian Laettner in the game at Duke. I couldn't imagine that happening to 27 year old Shaq.
    "Shaq can't slam! Shaq can't slam!!"


    "One, two three, four -- Shaq can't play this game no more!!!!!!"


    (Came back for this game -- seem to recall it was directly on the heels of a conference game but the memory is hazy).

  6. #266
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    "Shaq can't slam! Shaq can't slam!!"


    "One, two three, four -- Shaq can't play this game no more!!!!!!"


    (Came back for this game -- seem to recall it was directly on the heels of a conference game but the memory is hazy).
    I was there too. I think it was a Saturday game after a Thursday game so I got to see two games in one (long) weekend trip.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I remember 19 year old Shaq getting completely shut down by Christian Laettner in the game at Duke. I couldn't imagine that happening to 27 year old Shaq.

    I was at that game. It was one of the loudest games I can remember in Cameron.

    But let's give Laettner a little credit. He was no old pro himself. In fact, unless my memory is failing me, Laettner did the same thing the next year to a TWENTY year old more experienced Shaq. This time on Shaq's home floor. I also recall a few less than sportsmanlike comments being hurled in Laettner's direction.

  8. #268
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I was there too. I think it was a Saturday game after a Thursday game so I got to see two games in one (long) weekend trip.
    Did we play someone the next day, then? Md, maybe? I seem to recall coming up from grad school and seeing two games that weekend. But like I said, old memories become foggy as I become an old foggie.

    But Laettner just took him outside and abused him. Christian (and Ferry before him) were the prototype Duke big man with an outside game. Many do it now, but not back then.

  9. #269
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Durham, NC

    Any updates on Amile?

    Not to be a buzzkill, but any updates on Amile's decision process?

  10. #270
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    Did we play someone the next day, then? Md, maybe? I seem to recall coming up from grad school and seeing two games that weekend. But like I said, old memories become foggy as I become an old foggie.

    But Laettner just took him outside and abused him. Christian (and Ferry before him) were the prototype Duke big man with an outside game. Many do it now, but not back then.
    Your memory is correct. We played Maryland in Cameron on Sat. (Feb. 9) and then played Shaq and LSU on Sunday (Feb. 10).
    Singler is IRON

    I STILL GOT IT! -- Ryan Kelly, March 2, 2013

  11. #271
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cabbagetown, Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I remember 19 year old Shaq getting completely shut down by Christian Laettner in the game at Duke. I couldn't imagine that happening to 27 year old Shaq.
    This has nothing to do with the original argument. At 27 Shaq's body was already starting to break down. He'd had a few surgeries by that point. He, like most basketball players, are at their springiest and spryest at around 18-19 y.o. before the the game starts to break down their body. They gain skills, sure. But that was not what the original discussion was about.

  12. #272
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greenville, SC
    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    This has nothing to do with the original argument. At 27 Shaq's body was already starting to break down. He'd had a few surgeries by that point. He, like most basketball players, are at their springiest and spryest at around 18-19 y.o. before the the game starts to break down their body. They gain skills, sure. But that was not what the original discussion was about.
    And yet a broken down Shaq was 1st team All NBA at age 28, and 29, and 30 and 31 and 32 and 33 and 34. Basketball players may lose some spring due to wear and tear, but they gain power as they mature physically. I'm pretty sure a 27 year old Shaq would kick 19 year old Shaq's butt.

  13. #273
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    "Shaq can't slam! Shaq can't slam!!"


    "One, two three, four -- Shaq can't play this game no more!!!!!!"


    (Came back for this game -- seem to recall it was directly on the heels of a conference game but the memory is hazy).
    Shaq's got a big ol' butt, yea

    Shaq's got a big ol' butt, yea

    (Another cheer, IIRC.)
    Not leaving until the game is over.

  14. #274
    Peak physical form for top athletes is 26.1 years of age. Now can we all just agree that (Grant Hill's freshman-year dunk notwithstanding) Edouble was wrong and get back to Amile Jefferson?

    Amile is already developing his legacy:

    http://www.timesherald.com/article/2...ger=full_story

  15. #275
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by El_Diablo View Post
    Amile is already developing his legacy:

    http://www.timesherald.com/article/2...ger=full_story
    Congrats to Amile for his remarkable achievement, obviously, but still -- it gives me pause whenever I see a post mentioning a high school recruit and his "legacy." Can't seem to get rid of that sour taste in my mouth. It just lingers.
    "With seven national titles and 20 Final Fours in the 64-team NCAA Tournament era, Duke and UNC have had more playoff success than any other CONFERENCE." - Al Featherston

  16. #276
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Nashville
    Quote Originally Posted by Jderf View Post
    Congrats to Amile for his remarkable achievement, obviously, but still -- it gives me pause whenever I see a post mentioning a high school recruit and his "legacy." Can't seem to get rid of that sour taste in my mouth. It just lingers.
    I understand your unease, but he spent more time praising his teammates and coaching staff than anything else:

    Its so humbling. As much as Im honored by it, the guys Ive played with have been the big part of the success weve had. The coaches have been so good. Weve had that all four years. Ive been blessed to play with some great players in this tournament and theyve helped me so much to achieve this. Im honored by the guys Ive played with.

  17. #277
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Quote Originally Posted by El_Diablo View Post
    Amile is already developing his legacy:

    http://www.timesherald.com/article/2...ger=full_story
    That's a nice article. He seems like a really good kid. I don't know how much he'll be ready to contribute his freshman year, but he'd certainly be a great addition to the Duke team.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by billoz View Post
    I was at that game. It was one of the loudest games I can remember in Cameron.

    But let's give Laettner a little credit. He was no old pro himself. In fact, unless my memory is failing me, Laettner did the same thing the next year to a TWENTY year old more experienced Shaq. This time on Shaq's home floor. I also recall a few less than sportsmanlike comments being hurled in Laettner's direction.
    Shaq outplayed Laettner in the second matchup. Laettner did give Shaq trouble in drawing him out to the perimeter, but there really isn't a comparison in the defense that Duke threw at Shaq and what LSU threw at Laettner.

    As for Shaq's athletic peak, it was probably during his years with the Magic.

  19. #279
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO

    Age and Performance Redux

    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    Funny that the athlete (Grant Hill) in your post is dismissed, but your point is made around a non-athlete (you). Great argument.

    Here's an argument: Shaq. That's a frame that's about as hard to coordinate as any, but the 19 year old version was much more at it's physical peak than the 26-28 year-old version.
    Certainly any post where I cite myself as an athletic example could be properly criticized.

    I had and still have trouble taking seriously your assertion that 18-19 YOs are at peak physical performance. People used to say that decades ago, but modern training regimes have helped us better understand physiological development. I do recommend the article cited above by El diablo for a scholarly take on the problem.

    Strength is far greater for older athletes. Coordination, especially a problem for lanky basketball players, seems to come in at different rates, but athletes are much more capable in the NBA than in college in skills and moves. In pure speed it may be close but with modern training techniques sprinters are competitive throughout their 20s. The old days, when Dave Sime set six world records in three weeks as a 19YO Duke sophomore, are long past.

    Some of the advantages that we used to give to youth have been eclipsed by a better understanding of what is possible for older athletes. Much of what we have seen in recent years is because of the high salaries in many professional and quasi-professional sports. This gives athletes an incentive (and the ability) to train year-round. That wasn't the case in MLB and the NFL of my youth. Guys needed jobs in the off-season.

    Now you do make a valid point, but a different one, about "wear and tear in the NBA." I have also heard that college recruiters are leery of football players from the cities, where their legs have been damaged by running on concrete and other hard surfaces. But "wear and tear" is a different argument from the age profile of peak physical performance.

    And my reference to Grant Hill was not to say he was an exception to the rule of "peaking in the mid to late 20s," but to say he was a phenomenal athlete at age 18 and, while probably even better later (until injuries took their toll), he was in the top 1% of the top 1% of the top 1% of the population as a teenager.

    sagegrouse

  20. #280

    ?

    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyFan View Post
    Shaq outplayed Laettner in the second matchup. Laettner did give Shaq trouble in drawing him out to the perimeter, but there really isn't a comparison in the defense that Duke threw at Shaq and what LSU threw at Laettner.
    Man I hate it when these recruiting threads are hijacked by unrelated post, but I just couldn't let this pass.

    In Baton Rouge, Duke won 77-67. During the closing minutes with the game on the line, Laettner took over and scored 12 of his 22 points. A special 2-3 matchup zone was designed to guard Laettner. In the closing minutes, Laettner hit two threes to give Duke the lead they never relinquished, leaving Shaq to ponder, "Who was guarding him?"

    Shaq outplayed Laettner? Shaq 25 points, 12 rebs... Laettner 22 points, 10 rebs. I would call that a draw, particularly when you consider that Bobby Hurley, Duke's main assist man did not play because of a broken foot.

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