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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Washington, DC
    >The guy I'm intrigued with is Macklin. He seemed terribly shy, deferential when on the court last year. He might well have the temperment to play the pivotal role in the Princeton. Whether he has the skills and poise is another matter. If he does, Georgetown is going to make a real run.

    Me too. At first I thought Macklin was the logical choice to take the starting spot vacated by Jeff. That way Summers could keep playing the 3, PE2 could keep coming off the bench, etc. But the conventional wisdom seems to be that Macklin's role will be to sub for Roy. Last year, sometimes Jeff would sub for Roy, and PE2 would sub for Jeff when Roy went out. At other times, Macklin would sub for Roy.

    At any rate, I wouldn't get too bogged down in thinking that someone always needs to play the high post in JT3's system. True, they have done it a lot but not exclusively. With Jeff gone, he may need to adjust to the strengths and weaknesses of his personnel. And it might make sense - not saying that it necessarily will happen - to run a more guard-oriented offense next year because they are absolutely loaded with talent there: Wallace, Sapp, Crawford, Rivers, Freeman, Wright. I mean, wow. In a way, you can say that Georgetown's strengths (Hibbert and 4 guys who can play point guard well) are exactly Duke's weaknesses (no proven 5 and only one proven 1).

    Not to mention Summers, who has oodles of talent but is still growing in consistency, the sometimes electrifying PE2, and the big-upside Macklin. All these guys may not fit the classic Princeton as well as last year's team did, but figuring out how to use them all successfully is a nice problem for JT3 to have.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by mapei View Post
    >The guy I'm intrigued with is Macklin. He seemed terribly shy, deferential when on the court last year. He might well have the temperment to play the pivotal role in the Princeton. Whether he has the skills and poise is another matter. If he does, Georgetown is going to make a real run.

    Me too. At first I thought Macklin was the logical choice to take the starting spot vacated by Jeff. That way Summers could keep playing the 3, PE2 could keep coming off the bench, etc. But the conventional wisdom seems to be that Macklin's role will be to sub for Roy. Last year, sometimes Jeff would sub for Roy, and PE2 would sub for Jeff when Roy went out. At other times, Macklin would sub for Roy.

    At any rate, I wouldn't get too bogged down in thinking that someone always needs to play the high post in JT3's system. True, they have done it a lot but not exclusively. With Jeff gone, he may need to adjust to the strengths and weaknesses of his personnel. And it might make sense - not saying that it necessarily will happen - to run a more guard-oriented offense next year because they are absolutely loaded with talent there: Wallace, Sapp, Crawford, Rivers, Freeman, Wright. I mean, wow. In a way, you can say that Georgetown's strengths (Hibbert and 4 guys who can play point guard well) are exactly Duke's weaknesses (no proven 5 and only one proven 1).

    Not to mention Summers, who has oodles of talent but is still growing in consistency, the sometimes electrifying PE2, and the big-upside Macklin. All these guys may not fit the classic Princeton as well as last year's team did, but figuring out how to use them all successfully is a nice problem for JT3 to have.
    The fulcrum for the Princeton is the high post player. That player must understand the game, have poise, be a great receiver, be decisive in his passes, be willing and able to shoot and make it from where he catches, and then be able to put it on the floor and finish without putting undue strain on his body or himself in danger of charging. In classic Princeton fashion, that meant finishing with a classic hook shot game, usually either hand.

    Without that fulcrum, there is no Princeton. One caveat, Sidney Lowe seems to have modified what he inherited into a very inventive derivative of the Princeton. From what I could tell, entry passes come primarily from the side of the court to the hub in the low post. The dives to the basket come from the off guard position on the other side of the court, or something like it.

    I do not see JTIII abandoning the Princeton or going Lowe. I do think that your perspective about the efficacy of doing something different to be intriguing; if you've called this one, Maipei, you deserve a special spot on this board. Jumbo who?
    Last edited by greybeard; 08-02-2007 at 02:21 PM.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC
    JT3 definitely doesn't use the high post on every possession. If it's essential to the classic Princeton, then it is erroneous to say that JT3 runs the classic Princeton. They sometimes run a low post, and sometimes use the guards to make the key passes to cutters. Wallace and Sapp are both great at it.

    And I'm really talking out of my http://www.dukebasketballreport.comh...ballreport.com on this stuff! I'm defintely not a Jumbo-esque expert, though I love the compliment. I'm just another enthusiastic fan. Although I probably know the Hoyas' players better than you, I'm sure you know the Xs and Os of basketball better than I do.

  4. #24
    I'm starting B-School at Georgetown in less than two weeks, and have already ordered my season tickets, so I'll be at most of the home games. I was really hoping they'd renew the series with Duke this year, but at least it sounds like there's talk of starting it up again next year (I'll be there through May of 2009).

    Sounds like we have a couple of DBR posters who will be at the games, eh? We should meet up before a game some time!

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by mapei View Post
    JT3 definitely doesn't use the high post on every possession. If it's essential to the classic Princeton, then it is erroneous to say that JT3 runs the classic Princeton. They sometimes run a low post, and sometimes use the guards to make the key passes to cutters. Wallace and Sapp are both great at it.

    And I'm really talking out of my http://www.dukebasketballreport.comh...ballreport.com on this stuff! I'm defintely not a Jumbo-esque expert, though I love the compliment. I'm just another enthusiastic fan. Although I probably know the Hoyas' players better than you, I'm sure you know the Xs and Os of basketball better than I do.
    The straight Princeton has only one player in the middle, as JTIII did Hibbert and Green's first year when Green stormed onto the scene and then in the famous Duke game when Hibbert sat for most of it. So no, they do not run the straight Princeton, if indeed there really is such a thing. However, the Princeton only works if there is a center who comes high. Everytime down? Yeap. Does the center go low sometimes, yes. In the Princeton, everyone is a passer, initiator; everybody is "smart" in that way. The pivot guy rarely however is the recipient of backdoors. That changed towards the end of last season with Green.

    The Princeton as the Kings employed it under Carrill's stewardship always had a high-low element, unlike his teams at, well, Princeton, which never did. There is absolutely nothing wooden about the concepts that Carrill embraced; it is a dynamic system that he and others evolve with. JTIII was so refreshing last year during his team's run. Would say, we, he and his players, would figure out how to use what they knew to attack the next team up. HE AND HIS TEAM WOULD FIGURE IT OUT!! I do not think that that was puffing. Terribly refreshing. Sports actually end up involving the players themselves in the figuring out process. Wow!!!

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by mapei View Post
    JT3 definitely doesn't use the high post on every possession. If it's essential to the classic Princeton, then it is erroneous to say that JT3 runs the classic Princeton. They sometimes run a low post, and sometimes use the guards to make the key passes to cutters. Wallace and Sapp are both great at it.

    And I'm really talking out of my http://www.dukebasketballreport.comh...ballreport.com on this stuff! I'm defintely not a Jumbo-esque expert, though I love the compliment. I'm just another enthusiastic fan. Although I probably know the Hoyas' players better than you, I'm sure you know the Xs and Os of basketball better than I do.
    I am not an X's and O's guy. I am a flow guy; if anything, I have an ability to see flow that might be more acute than the average bear.

    The classic princeton was/is played with a single man in the middle, aka as Green and Hibbert's freshman year when Green made his mark and Hibbert sat, and as JT3 employed it to defeat Duke in what shall now be called The Game.

    The Princeton is a dynamic concept that evolves and changes, but works around certain principles, the most important of which is player empowerment. When JT3 used to say at press conferences during their run that he and "his players" would figure out how to attack their next opponent I think he really, really meant it.

    The classic Princeton certainly includes low post play and utilizes everyone's passing and receiving skills. Guards, forwards, everyone is the potential passer in backdoor plays. A principle difference between the princeton and other systems is that the pivot player is required to be at the hub of a very fluid passing game and to be creative and a decision maker. If there is a point player in that system it is the pivot player, not a guard. That is not to say that guards in the princeton are not every bit as creative and skilled as in other systems. Just that they occupy the ball less and do not have a monopoly on "running" a team. I think that that is a good thing.

    In the modern game, bigs are instructed on what to do, and too often are relegated to being unidimensional. I can't blame bigs for recoiling from such a roll. Too few coaches utilize systems that permit bigs the freedom to fully participate. So, we see as an alternative bigs moving away from the middle, which, imo, is the most exciting place to be.

    In the pros, Carrill has never employed the classic princeton which always had just one center, the pivot to the offense. In the pros, Carrill always had a true center playing low and the pivot to the offense high. That is what JTIII has used the past two years at Georgetown. Only, he has done it his way, having Hibbert moving to the pivot role as part of the normal flow. Only Hibbert when the "pivot" player, that is coming high to catch, never even considered shooting it. A tweak to the system that I do not believe Carrill ever used in the pros.

    The offense will not work if Hibbert is the lone pivot. The guy who catches high and is the pivot point for most of what happens with the ball must be a threat to score the ball as the clock winds down unless he is guarded tightly. If he is guarded tightly, all things are possible in the final seconds.

    BTW, from my observation, the Triangle makes a similar use of a high post pivot, usually off to the side of the free throw line or slightly down the side of the lane. The person who usually ends up occupying that position does not start there and can change during a single possession. Mostly, in Chicago, it was MJ; but everybody got a spin, especially Scottie and Horace. MJ killed people there.

    In LA, when Kobe lets them run it, it is mostly Kobe. When others get there, and he gets the ball on the exterior, the offense often stops. Apparently, Phil made that concession to allow Kobe to do that upon coming back. I think that he thought that Kobe's desire to win, and the efficacy of the offense, would win out over Kobe's narcisism. Just goes to show you that meditating has its limits; hey, a Zen Koen for the Zen Master (see, meditating as the Zen folks would say is that which occurs when the limits of the mind no longer restrict; I thought it was clever anyway).

    BTW, Carrill did not invent anything. He utilized the pivot in the way it always had been in the past. Actually, the extent of back door play, and the keys that trigger it (I have not a clue what they are, btw) are pretty close to an invention. Old time pivot players often came high, and pivot players were always the point of changing the point of attack, whether they did or not. Clyde Lavellet (spelling here), Dolph Shayes come to mind as pivot players who came high in the manner of the Princeton, although I only caught glimpses of them. The most modern example before Carrill made his mark was Jerry Lucas when he was with the Knicks, the year they won their second. This type of play is what I understood the game was always about during my high school years.
    Last edited by greybeard; 08-02-2007 at 11:37 PM.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Much to chew on there, very informative summary. You're right, it's very hard to see PE2 in that distributive role - he's a finisher. If not Roy, that leaves Summers and/or Macklin, with pluses and minuses to each.

    I actually think Roy himself might well be the guy. His basketball skills have improved so dramatically that he's become a very good passer. Main downside would be diminishing his putback and offensive rebounding value. If Roy plays high post, either Macklin could play low, or they could go without a low. Just sent in my seat reservation deposit today - I want the season to start already!

    Reisen, I hope your experience on the Hilltop is a great one. I for one am glad they aren't playing Duke this year - my nerves can't take it!

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