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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by stixof96 View Post
    here is what you are missing about the kentucky game in 1992.........when kentucky scored with under 3 seconds left and took the lead, Coach K called a time out............when the players got to the bench, the FIRST thing Coach K told them was............WE ARE GOING TO WIN THIS GAME !!!!...........and everybody on that team believed it 100% because they had complete confidence in their will to win
    In Gene Wojo's recent book (great read, by the way) about the '92 Kentucky game, he included an interesting comment from Bilas about the "we are going to win" from Coach K. Bilas said (and I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the book in front of me) Coach K said this all the time when they had late game huddles when the team was trailing and they won almost none of those games. We romanticize the story when it came out the right way. But they were in the exact same situation in the Wake Forest game earlier that season, I bet Coach K said exactly the same thing in the huddle, they ran exactly the same play, and they lost. Doesn't mean their will to win (or their confidence in their will to win, whatever that means) was any less when they played Wake than it was when they played Kentucky.

    Similarly, you mention that Scheyer is emblematic of the type of Duke player who was like those of the past and missing from this team. I love Scheyer, and think he was a great player. But let's also remember that his first three Duke teams lost in the first round (to 11-seeded VCU), the second round (to 7-seeded West Virginia), and in a blowout in the Sweet 16 (to Villanova). Those were three ugly tournament losses. Scheyer's (and Singler's - another player people around here love to refer to as iron-willed) will to win didn't mysteriously materialize after his junior year - it was probably as much there in 2009 as it was in 2010. But the team got a little better, and the ball bounced the right way, and we ended up with a championship.

    Psychological projection is probably the greatest fool's errand that we as fans can engage in. We have absolutely no idea what's going on inside these kids' heads. For all I know, Miles Plumlee's will to win is equal to that of Laettner's. But Miles Plumlee the player is nowhere near Christian Laettner the player, and there's only so far that will can get you.
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by pfrduke View Post
    In Gene Wojo's recent book (great read, by the way) about the '92 Kentucky game, he included an interesting comment from Bilas about the "we are going to win" from Coach K. Bilas said (and I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the book in front of me) Coach K said this all the time when they had late game huddles when the team was trailing and they won almost none of those games. We romanticize the story when it came out the right way. But they were in the exact same situation in the Wake Forest game earlier that season, I bet Coach K said exactly the same thing in the huddle, they ran exactly the same play, and they lost. Doesn't mean their will to win (or their confidence in their will to win, whatever that means) was any less when they played Wake than it was when they played Kentucky.

    Similarly, you mention that Scheyer is emblematic of the type of Duke player who was like those of the past and missing from this team. I love Scheyer, and think he was a great player. But let's also remember that his first three Duke teams lost in the first round (to 11-seeded VCU), the second round (to 7-seeded West Virginia), and in a blowout in the Sweet 16 (to Villanova). Those were three ugly tournament losses. Scheyer's (and Singler's - another player people around here love to refer to as iron-willed) will to win didn't mysteriously materialize after his junior year - it was probably as much there in 2009 as it was in 2010. But the team got a little better, and the ball bounced the right way, and we ended up with a championship.

    Psychological projection is probably the greatest fool's errand that we as fans can engage in. We have absolutely no idea what's going on inside these kids' heads. For all I know, Miles Plumlee's will to win is equal to that of Laettner's. But Miles Plumlee the player is nowhere near Christian Laettner the player, and there's only so far that will can get you.
    POTD - dead on

  3. #43
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    Dec 2009
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    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by pfrduke View Post
    Psychological projection is probably the greatest fool's errand that we as fans can engage in. We have absolutely no idea what's going on inside these kids' heads.
    None whatsoever. This is a fact. Which is why it frustrates me to no end when oblivious fans write off a player's (or a whole team's) entire season by saying they just didn't have the drive, the will, the intensity, the hunger, or whatever buzz-word people choose when they can't accurately analyze a game but still want to offer a reason -- any reason, even if it is completely vacuous -- for why the team fell short. It actually makes me physically angry. I mean, these guys bleed Duke blue, all day, every day, in a way that we fans cannot even begin to comprehend. To suggest that they lack effort at all is beyond asinine.

    And besides, what do we base these judgements on? Body language? Facial expressions? Wild inferences? We just have no idea.

    (And also, fantastic post, pfrduke. Woulda given you pitchforks but apparently I've been too trigger-happy in the last day or so.)

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by pfrduke View Post
    In Gene Wojo's recent book (great read, by the way) about the '92 Kentucky game, he included an interesting comment from Bilas about the "we are going to win" from Coach K. Bilas said (and I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the book in front of me) Coach K said this all the time when they had late game huddles when the team was trailing and they won almost none of those games. We romanticize the story when it came out the right way. But they were in the exact same situation in the Wake Forest game earlier that season, I bet Coach K said exactly the same thing in the huddle, they ran exactly the same play, and they lost. Doesn't mean their will to win (or their confidence in their will to win, whatever that means) was any less when they played Wake than it was when they played Kentucky.

    Similarly, you mention that Scheyer is emblematic of the type of Duke player who was like those of the past and missing from this team. I love Scheyer, and think he was a great player. But let's also remember that his first three Duke teams lost in the first round (to 11-seeded VCU), the second round (to 7-seeded West Virginia), and in a blowout in the Sweet 16 (to Villanova). Those were three ugly tournament losses. Scheyer's (and Singler's - another player people around here love to refer to as iron-willed) will to win didn't mysteriously materialize after his junior year - it was probably as much there in 2009 as it was in 2010. But the team got a little better, and the ball bounced the right way, and we ended up with a championship.

    Psychological projection is probably the greatest fool's errand that we as fans can engage in. We have absolutely no idea what's going on inside these kids' heads. For all I know, Miles Plumlee's will to win is equal to that of Laettner's. But Miles Plumlee the player is nowhere near Christian Laettner the player, and there's only so far that will can get you.
    Bilas wasn't on that team or any team like it in my opinion.....Bilas has always worried more about ESPN than Duke........Schyer openly said at the beginning of his senior year that he had a total committment to winning it all, something he had not had in the past.......zubek was nowhere as good as Laettner either, but his will to win was as strong once the tourney started and he achieved the same results......

    do not ever underestimate the will to win.......in the end, the team and players that have the greatest will to win, will be the ones to win......there are probably a dozen teams in this tournament this year that have the ingrediants to win........the one with the trophy will be the ones with the greatest will to win...........

    if you are trying to convince me that this years team lacks the ingredients to win it all, i ain't buying it......as far as the will to win it all, we will see.........

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Quote Originally Posted by stixof96 View Post
    Bilas wasn't on that team or any team like it in my opinion.....Bilas has always worried more about ESPN than Duke........Schyer openly said at the beginning of his senior year that he had a total committment to winning it all, something he had not had in the past.......zubek was nowhere as good as Laettner either, but his will to win was as strong once the tourney started and he achieved the same results......
    Bilas was an assistant coach on that team and in the huddle, as well as in many similar huddles as both a coach and a player.

    Quote Originally Posted by stixof96 View Post
    do not ever underestimate the will to win.......in the end, the team and players that have the greatest will to win, will be the ones to win......there are probably a dozen teams in this tournament this year that have the ingrediants to win........the one with the trophy will be the ones with the greatest will to win...........
    This is reductive thinking. It's also incredibly convenient - it allows you to be right, no matter what, because you can always say on April 3 that whichever team won the night before was the one with the greatest will to win, and it will be impossible to prove you wrong. It will also be impossible to prove you right.

    Quote Originally Posted by stixof96 View Post
    if you are trying to convince me that this years team lacks the ingredients to win it all, i ain't buying it......as far as the will to win it all, we will see.........
    I'm trying to do nothing of the sort. I, too, think this team has the ingredients to win it all, although it will take them playing their best (and a fair bit of luck) for them to do so. But what I cannot agree with is the notion that if we lose, we lacked the will to win, whereas if we win it all, it's because we had the will to do so.
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by pfrduke View Post
    But what I cannot agree with is the notion that if we lose, we lacked the will to win, whereas if we win it all, it's because we had the will to do so.
    Spot on again. And (I'm not trying to be dismissive here, just discussing the issue) the real problem with stixof96's position as I see it, is that it is actually worse than wrong. Because whether or not the conclusion is correct or incorrect, it is just not very interesting. It doesn't tell us anything about the game itself, or about the plays which decided it. It says nothing about what specific things each player on the court actually did. It ignores the actual events of the game, and instead it simply takes the fact that one of the teams won, and from there it moves backwards towards an "explanation:" they had more heart.

    Beyond that, it is disrespectful to the losing team, who probably gave everything they had and left just as much on the court as the winners.

    Again, I hope I don't come across as harsh or anything like that, I just happen to disagree with you very strongly.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by stixof96 View Post
    just read it like i am talking to you..........nothing to it.........i'm not a secretary and never had typing in my life........when i graduated from college there wasn't a single computer on the entire campus.........
    What college did you go to?
    ~rthomas


  8. #48
    Loved the doc. Brought back many pleasant memories. I hope the Fab Five watched it. Was much better than the ESPN doc about them. Wonder if they've ever realized just how petulant they actually were?

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Jderf View Post
    Spot on again. And (I'm not trying to be dismissive here, just discussing the issue) the real problem with stixof96's position as I see it, is that it is actually worse than wrong. Because whether or not the conclusion is correct or incorrect, it is just not very interesting. It doesn't tell us anything about the game itself, or about the plays which decided it. It says nothing about what specific things each player on the court actually did. It ignores the actual events of the game, and instead it simply takes the fact that one of the teams won, and from there it moves backwards towards an "explanation:" they had more heart.

    Beyond that, it is disrespectful to the losing team, who probably gave everything they had and left just as much on the court as the winners.

    Again, I hope I don't come across as harsh or anything like that, I just happen to disagree with you very strongly.
    First, there is certainly no sin in disagreeing with me..........i respect your right to disagree with me no matter how harshly you do it, so don't worry about that........
    I come from the vince lombardi generation and i am a living disciple of his.......here is what he said about the will to win.....he talked about it all the time.............

    “Winning isn't everything, but the will to win is everything.”

    “The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather in a lack of will.”

    “All right Mister, let me tell you what winning means... you're willing to go longer, work harder, give more than anyone else.”

    “The spirit, the will to win, and the will to excel are the things that endure. These qualities are so much more important than the events that occur.”

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by rthomas View Post
    What college did you go to?
    i have 2 degrees from 2 different colleges.........neither one duke........but both 4 year universities.....the last one in 1980.....i am old school......can you tell ???.....LOL !!!.......

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by stixof96 View Post
    “Winning isn't everything, but the will to win is everything.”
    Haha, sorry I was being so cautious. Some people take things personally, which I like to avoid. The last thing I will say is this:

    I agree with you that the will to win is extremely important. You must have it if you want to do well in sports -- or anything, for that matter. But I disagree that losing means that you did not have the will to win. A team can have the ultimate will to win and yet still lose. Those teams can simply be overmatched, they can have a bad night, or they can just get hit by bad luck. It happens. And if, despite our best efforts, this Duke team gets knocked out earlier than expected, I will argue that we were one of those unfortunate, but strong-willed teams.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Durham, NC
    It's available on iTunes now for $3.99 FYI

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Jderf View Post
    Haha, sorry I was being so cautious. Some people take things personally, which I like to avoid. The last thing I will say is this:

    I agree with you that the will to win is extremely important. You must have it if you want to do well in sports -- or anything, for that matter. But I disagree that losing means that you did not have the will to win. A team can have the ultimate will to win and yet still lose. Those teams can simply be overmatched, they can have a bad night, or they can just get hit by bad luck. It happens. And if, despite our best efforts, this Duke team gets knocked out earlier than expected, I will argue that we were one of those unfortunate, but strong-willed teams.
    i am not taking this personal........don't know where that came from.........i have competed in a very high level environment many, many times in my life....from those experiences i have learned something....when you are surrounded by quality competition, the winner usually is the one that refuses to lose.........i strongly believe in the power of refusing to lose...........

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cabbagetown, Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by stixof96 View Post
    here is what you are missing about the kentucky game in 1992.........when kentucky scored with under 3 seconds left and took the lead, Coach K called a time out............when the players got to the bench, the FIRST thing Coach K told them was............WE ARE GOING TO WIN THIS GAME !!!!...........and everybody on that team believed it 100% because they had complete confidence in their will to win..........i don't know if the team would believe that today........as far as UNLV went........after Duke beat them , they were done for......Duke could have beaten them 10 times in a row........Duke leveled castle in the desert.....after that game , UNLV was more scared of bobby hurley than they were of a rattlesnake......and hurley knew it too.........he would have loved to beat that ast again............LOL !!!!!!!!!!!1
    I seriously doubt LJ and crew were scared of Bobby Hurley. That was a great win, but it seems silly to inflate it beyond what actually happened. The fact that UNLV would never be scared of Duke was what made it so great.

    Also, you can't say that everybody on the Duke bench believed Coach K 100%. That's just not reasonable. It's true that Laettner did, but he was pathologically competitive, as he hinted at in the documentary. If you watch the documentary, it is pretty clear that Grant Hill did not believe 100% that we were going to win the game. He bought into the idea, sure, but he was still hesitant. It was not until he stepped on the court and saw that noone was guarding the inbounds pass that he became fully confident that it would work (from what he said in the documentary).

    Also, I agree with another posters comment that your posts are not reader friendly. I will probably start skipping them if you keep writing them this way. It is sort of dizzying.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    I seriously doubt LJ and crew were scared of Bobby Hurley. That was a great win, but it seems silly to inflate it beyond what actually happened. The fact that UNLV would never be scared of Duke was what made it so great.

    Also, you can't say that everybody on the Duke bench believed Coach K 100%. That's just not reasonable. It's true that Laettner did, but he was pathologically competitive, as he hinted at in the documentary. If you watch the documentary, it is pretty clear that Grant Hill did not believe 100% that we were going to win the game. He bought into the idea, sure, but he was still hesitant. It was not until he stepped on the court and saw that noone was guarding the inbounds pass that he became fully confident that it would work (from what he said in the documentary).

    Also, I agree with another posters comment that your posts are not reader friendly. I will probably start skipping them if you keep writing them this way. It is sort of dizzying.
    one thing is very clear.......there are a lot of people on this board who have never peronally experienced competition at extremely high levels......or struggle..........both are the greatest lessons in life.........

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    Cabbagetown, Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by stixof96 View Post
    one thing is very clear.......there are a lot of people on this board who have never peronally experienced competition at extremely high levels......or struggle..........both are the greatest lessons in life.........
    This is probably the most far-reachingly offensive post I have ever read on DBR. You know nothing of anyone's struggles around here sir. Keep the talk to hoops, not personal/life judgement.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by stixof96 View Post
    one thing is very clear.......there are a lot of people on this board who have never peronally experienced competition at extremely high levels......or struggle..........both are the greatest lessons in life.........
    another thing is very clear..........there is one poster in this thread who prides himself on his will to win..............but is too old.....or simple minded........ to learn how to use punctuation........ one of the basic lessons in writing.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by kingboozer View Post
    It's available on iTunes now for $3.99 FYI
    Never comes up when I search. Would appreciate a link. Thanks!

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    Cabbagetown, Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by LSanders View Post
    Never comes up when I search. Would appreciate a link. Thanks!
    I found it pretty easily, just now.

    I went to the iTunes store through the iTunes on my computer, chose the TV Shows dropdown menu, selected Shows Just Added, and it's on that page--the first show on the third column down.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by pfrduke View Post
    In Gene Wojo's recent book (great read, by the way) about the '92 Kentucky game, he included an interesting comment from Bilas about the "we are going to win" from Coach K. Bilas said (and I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the book in front of me) Coach K said this all the time when they had late game huddles when the team was trailing and they won almost none of those games. We romanticize the story when it came out the right way. But they were in the exact same situation in the Wake Forest game earlier that season, I bet Coach K said exactly the same thing in the huddle, they ran exactly the same play, and they lost. Doesn't mean their will to win (or their confidence in their will to win, whatever that means) was any less when they played Wake than it was when they played Kentucky.
    This isn't true. When the Duke players came to the huddle in the Wake Forest game, Coach K said to the team, "Look, we're definitely not going to win this game. You can go ahead and give it a college try, but let's save up our mojo for a bigger game, say like the regional finals in the NCAA tourney against Kentucky."

    True story, Scouts honor.

    Actually, the big difference between those teams and when Coach K said "we are going to win" comes down to the person listening to it -- Laettner. He truly believed it, which is something he says repeatedly about buying into what Coach K was teaching. Coach K was why he came to Duke, and Coach K helped Laettner maximize his potential and be fiercer competitor.

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