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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC

    cycling: recreational, competitive, or utilitarian - post here!

    Since there seems to be a bit of interest in cycling, and the TdF isn't all there is to the sport, I thought it might make sense to try to have a place for discussions of all sort on the glory that is le velo. WE can continue the TdF conversation here or post whatever . . .

    Me, I hope to ride tomorrow but the weather is looking iffy. 40% chance of rain, which is really annoying. It probably won't, but if you ride there's a decent chance you'll be caught up in it. Maybe I'll ride indoors and watch old Duke basketball video.

    I'll also watch the Tour coverage at some point. It's almost beside the point who "wins" at this stage of the game, but I'll go out on a limb and predict that Evans takes it with enough margin to take yellow. Some part of me hopes he does, because I am so sick of hearing about the Disco team that I could scream. Which is nothing against Contador, who looks like the real deal.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by mapei View Post
    Since there seems to be a bit of interest in cycling, and the TdF isn't all there is to the sport, I thought it might make sense to try to have a place for discussions of all sort on the glory that is le velo. WE can continue the TdF conversation here or post whatever . . .

    Me, I hope to ride tomorrow but the weather is looking iffy. 40% chance of rain, which is really annoying. It probably won't, but if you ride there's a decent chance you'll be caught up in it. Maybe I'll ride indoors and watch old Duke basketball video.

    I'll also watch the Tour coverage at some point. It's almost beside the point who "wins" at this stage of the game, but I'll go out on a limb and predict that Evans takes it with enough margin to take yellow. Some part of me hopes he does, because I am so sick of hearing about the Disco team that I could scream. Which is nothing against Contador, who looks like the real deal.
    Question: do purists in cycling get turned off by the high tech/big dollar approach to the tdf? When Armstrong was riding, only thing that mattered to me was the story, his winning. Now, the other day it occurred to me that all these custom made bikes, and we are talking completely, completely off the chart custom, right, and actually all the bikes so you can switch out mid race, and all the legit recovery technology and right eating and on-the-go nourishment systems etc, does that detract from the elan of the sport, the sport of the sport? I wondered about that, just like I wonder about the recent explosion in hi tech club fitting, particularly with driver and woods, materials and launch angles being customed to max each player's performance. Where is the sport in all this? The dashing individualist? Just asking.

    For me, the idea of racing was always a joke. They didn't use to affectionately call me The Flash for nothing.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC
    I'm probably the wrong guy to ask, since I have a two-month-old bike that is essentially what the Gerolsteiner team races on, except with my own component specs - and I love, love love it!

    Now I will confess that, by the time one is old enough to afford one, one is likely too old to justify it with high-end performance to match the high-end bike. That is certainly the case with me. I can keep pace with my racing buddies only when they want me to. But I love riding my new bike, love looking at it.

    That said, the UCI did enact rules a few years ago to assure some standardization in bikes, to help keep it a competition among people rather than among technological advances. There is now a minimum weight, for example. And this especially affected the super-aerodynamic time-trial bikes, bringing more uniformity to the geometry. I don't have any problem with that.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by mapei View Post
    I'm probably the wrong guy to ask, since I have a two-month-old bike that is essentially what the Gerolsteiner team races on, except with my own component specs - and I love, love love it!

    Now I will confess that, by the time one is old enough to afford one, one is likely too old to justify it with high-end performance to match the high-end bike. That is certainly the case with me. I can keep pace with my racing buddies only when they want me to. But I love riding my new bike, love looking at it.

    That said, the UCI did enact rules a few years ago to assure some standardization in bikes, to help keep it a competition among people rather than among technological advances. There is now a minimum weight, for example. And this especially affected the super-aerodynamic time-trial bikes, bringing more uniformity to the geometry. I don't have any problem with that.
    Saw some program on how bikes were fit for Armstrong's team. Wind tunnels, different compositions/stiffnesses for frames, etc. It did not seem that there was any such thing as a standardized bike; not for those guys. I thought I remember each guy got a unique bike, not just in the way of normal fitting as a normal person, even a splurger like you might get.

    I completely get the deal about going high end on a road/racing bike. Completely. I used to hang some after a round at the U of Md. golf course at College Park Bikes and talk to them about getting something built for my wife. She used to really love to ride. Used to get picked up by a gaggle of guys who road all the way up the Park, out around lake Needwood, and acriss to River Road. Say, maybe you were one of em.

    First gift I ever bought her was a Fugi S10S. She won't let me get rid of it.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lexington, KY
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    Question: do purists in cycling get turned off by the high tech/big dollar approach to the tdf? When Armstrong was riding, only thing that mattered to me was the story, his winning. Now, the other day it occurred to me that all these custom made bikes, and we are talking completely, completely off the chart custom, right, and actually all the bikes so you can switch out mid race, and all the legit recovery technology and right eating and on-the-go nourishment systems etc, does that detract from the elan of the sport, the sport of the sport?
    I'm unsure that I can identify ANY sport that hasn't been affected by such intense research and improvement. Usually, efforts at the ultra-competitive levels eventually filter down to the recreational level ... and I am glad. Wooden tennis rackets, horrible footwear, unprotective wear in many sports (headwear, padding), and a number of other antiquated devices are thankfully gone from sports in general. Materials, medical, and engineering sciences have made it better for most folks to take up & to continue with sports.

    Having said that, I wish there was more life sciences investigation into repetitive stress on the body. There seems to be relatively few investigations about repetitive stress & nutrition in kids & teenagers, women, older athletes, and recreational athletes. A little more investigation would improve training/development and reduce injury for many folks. Gee... we might have even more handle on ACL issues among female soccer/basketball players (), metatarsal issues among male basketball players (and ballet dancers, gymnasts), and other issues out there in every sport.

    As far as the élan ... my daughter is watching the time trials because of the cool designs on the helmets. She also is more intrigued by the fact that her little bicycle is probably heavier than many of the ones she sees. The Sandy Casar crash-and-win performance yesterday seemed mildly interesting. If any of these things foster her interest in cycling, GREAT!! She may actually want to go see next year's Tour de Georgia. Then she could really appreciate the élan.

    Now what would probably foster more interest is if they'd show more diverse races ... after all, women DO cycle, right? Any great African (besides Robbie Hunter), Asian, and South American participation would greatly improve the TdF.

    My favorite tour race that I've seen was the 2004 Tour de Madagascar, the northern stage. VERY cool!

    Cheers,
    Lavabe

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lavabe View Post
    I'm unsure that I can identify ANY sport that hasn't been affected by such intense research and improvement. Usually, efforts at the ultra-competitive levels eventually filter down to the recreational level ... and I am glad. Wooden tennis rackets, horrible footwear, unprotective wear in many sports (headwear, padding), and a number of other antiquated devices are thankfully gone from sports in general. Materials, medical, and engineering sciences have made it better for most folks to take up & to continue with sports.

    Having said that, I wish there was more life sciences investigation into repetitive stress on the body. There seems to be relatively few investigations about repetitive stress & nutrition in kids & teenagers, women, older athletes, and recreational athletes. A little more investigation would improve training/development and reduce injury for many folks. Gee... we might have even more handle on ACL issues among female soccer/basketball players (), metatarsal issues among male basketball players (and ballet dancers, gymnasts), and other issues out there in every sport.

    As far as the élan ... my daughter is watching the time trials because of the cool designs on the helmets. She also is more intrigued by the fact that her little bicycle is probably heavier than many of the ones she sees. The Sandy Casar crash-and-win performance yesterday seemed mildly interesting. If any of these things foster her interest in cycling, GREAT!! She may actually want to go see next year's Tour de Georgia. Then she could really appreciate the élan.

    Now what would probably foster more interest is if they'd show more diverse races ... after all, women DO cycle, right? Any great African (besides Robbie Hunter), Asian, and South American participation would greatly improve the TdF.

    My favorite tour race that I've seen was the 2004 Tour de Madagascar, the northern stage. VERY cool!

    Cheers,
    Lavabe
    Really, really resonate with the perspectives articulated in paragraph 2.

    Completely understand the perspectives articulated in paragraph 1. Sometimes, however, I ask myself whether the technological advances are not contributors to paragraph 2 and do not take away from the esthetics of the game.

    For an example of the latter, the height of interest in men's tennis, both watching on the tube and certainly playing, was in the final stages of wood. It has been all downhill in both aspects of the game since. Mac, Bjorn, VJ, Stan, Ashe, and you could not get on a tennis court without a reservation. Handling the racket was an art form.

    Now, the game seems more a slugfest. And, the number of injuries I'd have to think for the average player have only gone up because of the pressures that can be created with the ever more powerful machines.

    Of course, it seems to have been the opposite with the popularity of golf. There are times, however, when I long for the old days--when shot creation, aim, and swashbucklers were ever present. I still have a set of blades that I had custom made even well after the new technology was well ensconsed; play more forgiving clubs now, hit them a club or two farther, but I do so love the way those blades feel/look.

    By the way, with regard to footwear, no one would want to go back to canvas, but I think that the footwear might well be a cause of some of the injuries. That which makes it easier to do that which the body is really not meant to be doing, at least a whole lot of, is probably not such a good idea if reducing injuries is your goal.

    Here's an additional perspective. The games we play and watch, as we get older, are they really enhanced for the true fan or sportsman by the advances in technology? Yes and no would be my answer. I'm not sure I'd be watching college baseball, actually I rarely do, if they didn't use aluminum; but so what. They'd still be playing and maybe I'd be reading more books. These killer gloves. I remember doing just fine back in the day.

    Now, cycling is another matter. For the serious cycler, I see absolutely no downside and a tremendous upside for getting a custom lightweight frame (but please not all aluminum, but I don't have to add that caution here), with the precision shifters and incredibly machined hubs, etc. If one of those badboys could handle my weight, I'd probably go entry level on one of those my own self, that is, if I could get off the coach.

  7. #7

    Changing technology

    Watching the technology change over the years of the Tour has been very interesting. I remember how controversial Greg Lemond's aero bars where when he first used them. (CBS spoiled the end of that final time trial on the Champs by telling the ending in a promo for their program.)

    One of my favorite Tour memories was watching Bjarne Riis toss the $20k+ prototype time trial bike in the ditch during the 1997 Tour.

    I'll stick with my 20 year old Raleigh Technium. Every time I think about a new bike, the price holds me back. I can't justify the expense for my recreational riding.

    Does anyone have any favorite cycling vacations to share?
    Last edited by DukieInKansas; 07-28-2007 at 03:06 PM. Reason: Corrected year from 1996 to 1997

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Wake Forest

    Cool Yo Mapei! Great thread, wished I had thought of it!

    I'm a big cyclist as well. I ride the 2002 US Postal Team bike (even though it's no longer the Blue, Red, & White theme since Trek gave me a brand new frame!)

    I ride all the time here in Central NC. If you ever get a hankering for a great ride, you should come do the Cycle North Carolina ride in October. I've done it the last five years and it's a great time.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by TNTDevil View Post
    I'm a big cyclist as well. I ride the 2002 US Postal Team bike (even though it's no longer the Blue, Red, & White theme since Trek gave me a brand new frame!)

    I ride all the time here in Central NC. If you ever get a hankering for a great ride, you should come do the Cycle North Carolina ride in October. I've done it the last five years and it's a great time.
    Do they still do the charity ride at the beach in August? Did that one time. Flat is OK but that constant breeze is a killer.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Wake Forest

    Are you referrring to the MS 150? Is so...

    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    Do they still do the charity ride at the beach in August? Did that one time. Flat is OK but that constant breeze is a killer.
    ... yes, it's still here but changed slightly.

    Now instead of riding from Raleigh to the coast, everybody goes to New Bern and does a curcuit ride.

    The cool thing about CNC is you get two-three days in the mountains and Piedmont then, when you hit the Coastal Plain, you can flat out drop the hammer.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC
    On the subject of cycling vacations, I've had some great ones - I've ridden the California wine country twice, and taken 5 one-week tours in various parts of France. The first one was what got me hooked on cycling. One of the leaders was a former member of the US national team and he coached me informally every day as we rode vineyard to vineyard and inn to inn. Cycling addiction soon followed.

    I also had an extremely pleasant, if less dramatic, day in Quebec (note my love of French-speaking places), when my SO and I rented clunker bikes and went out on a rail-trail through the Laurentians. It was gorgeous Canadian wilderness, and every 5-10 miles they had a French cafe on the trail!

    Not quite so pleasant were my two (!) flat tires this morning . . .

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC area
    The most fun I've had on a cycling trip was with fellow poster Muggee, who was living in Chicagoland at the time. We took a long weekend up to a national forest in Wisconsin just south of Lake Superior, Chequemegon National Forest.

    It's a fabulous forest, almost a million acres, with three hundred miles of marked trails. Glacial moraines, swoopy and fast. We went in a very warm (for upper Wisconsin) October. The trails are mostly used by hikers, horses and bikes in the warmer months, and by snowmobilers and cross-country skiers in cold, and in fabulous shape (unlike the trails around DC which are all roots and rocks).

    But I must say the best part of the trip was when the Duke Women's Soccer team beat the then years-long undefeated UNC. We were having breakfast at a local dive in Cable, and found the score in the sports page. Our whooping rather started the locals.

    -jk

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    I went over my handlebars on a rec/mountain bike in Umstead a coule of months ago - I haven't gotten back in the saddle since. Partially because I trashed my helmet - one too many hits - partialy because I suffer from gear envy. I want to get a decent road bike - I don't have an interest in single track, so MT biking is not something I will get too much into.

    Unfortuanately, it looks like the entry point for a good road bike is $$$ and I have two expensive hobbies right now, and a wife. That combination limits my ability to get new gear.

    I've been settling for backpacking, hiking and paddling.

    Exiled

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exiled_Devil View Post
    I went over my handlebars on a rec/mountain bike in Umstead a coule of months ago - I haven't gotten back in the saddle since. Partially because I trashed my helmet - one too many hits - partialy because I suffer from gear envy. I want to get a decent road bike - I don't have an interest in single track, so MT biking is not something I will get too much into.

    Unfortuanately, it looks like the entry point for a good road bike is $$$ and I have two expensive hobbies right now, and a wife. That combination limits my ability to get new gear.

    I've been settling for backpacking, hiking and paddling.

    Exiled
    Keep your eyes open at yard sales. I caught that Raleigh for my son at a neighbor's. Knew enough to know that 105 components were decent. Turned out, the guy who owned it had turned to mountain biking and hadn't riden it in 8 years. I bought it on the spot. Cleaned it up, put a hundred into it. The gears are precise and crisp, the bike lightweight, chromolly is much softer ride than straight aluminum; you compromise with the placement of the shifters, and you are into a decent road bike dirt cheap.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Exiled, yikes! Take care of yourself. We've all been there, at one time or another. My taste in bikes isn't as retro as greybeard's, but he's right that bargains can be found from private sellers. I just replaced my previous best bike for about 15-20% of what the comparable new model would cost, and it was in great shape. I listed it on my neighborhood's e-mail newsletter.

    -jk, isn't Chequamegon where the Fat Tire Fest has been held over the years? I think both Lemond and Lance raced there at one time or another, and it's a beautiful part of the country.

    I'm convinced that I would hurt myself severely on a mountain bike! As my road-racing buddy B says, "I might as well hurl myself down a flight of stairs and be done with it."

  16. #16
    Yesz - you can get some good deals on used bikes. My brother-in-law came home one night very excited because he got a great deal on a Klein for my sister. Unfortunately, he had been sent out to get diapers. She never has liked that bike - although I would have taken it if she wasn't shorter than me.

    Mapei, I'm with you on France. In 2003, we cycled in the Loire valley for 1 week. We stayed in an old mill, had guided tours each day, 5 course gourmet meals each night, and good wine all week long. Definitely a great time. Actually, since my cycling vacations are typically with family and friends, they are always fun. We may have finally convinced my 11 year old niece that she should ride with us this year.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Brookline, MA
    mapei,
    I'd love to hear more about the cycling vacations you've taken. My wife and I have been looking into week-long cycling vacations in France as well as California wine country, so it would be great to know which companies you went with. We're both definitely recreational cyclists, and my wife definitely doesn't do well with difficult hills at all, but I'd still like to know about them. Also, we've been looking at that trail in Quebec as well, tell me more!

    My wife bought me a hybrid bike for my birthday back in December, and it was quite possibly the best gift she's ever bought for me. I now ride my bike to work every day, the 10 minute ride to and from work is probably the best part of my day. We took our bikes to Asheville last month and did a little mountain biking up there, which was fun...does anyone know of good paved areas to ride in and around Asheville? We're probably headed back up there in the fall, and will be looking to ride the bikes some more when we go.

    One last thing about the technology boom: I absolutely love golf and frequent a number of golf message boards. The technology debate rages on those boards, but overall, the customization that can be done makes the game more fun because it allows people to play the game better. My dad is not a great golfer, but I know that he still loves the game and loves the fact that the technological advances allow him to hit better shots and hit the ball further, which makes the game more enjoyable for him. Also, the same parallels can be drawn between golf and cycling...if you know what you're looking for, buying equipment on Ebay can be significantly cheaper than buying in retail stores. Yes, you lose the experience of using the local retailer (I really like my local bike shop, but the same can't be said for the local golf shop), but you can't argue with the savings that you get. Also, look for last year's model on a lot of stuff, it can save you a good bit. Bottom line: do your homework, then give Ebay a shot.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by arydolphin View Post
    mapei,
    I'd love to hear more about the cycling vacations you've taken. My wife and I have been looking into week-long cycling vacations in France as well as California wine country, so it would be great to know which companies you went with. We're both definitely recreational cyclists, and my wife definitely doesn't do well with difficult hills at all, but I'd still like to know about them. Also, we've been looking at that trail in Quebec as well, tell me more!

    My wife bought me a hybrid bike for my birthday back in December, and it was quite possibly the best gift she's ever bought for me. I now ride my bike to work every day, the 10 minute ride to and from work is probably the best part of my day. We took our bikes to Asheville last month and did a little mountain biking up there, which was fun...does anyone know of good paved areas to ride in and around Asheville? We're probably headed back up there in the fall, and will be looking to ride the bikes some more when we go.

    One last thing about the technology boom: I absolutely love golf and frequent a number of golf message boards. The technology debate rages on those boards, but overall, the customization that can be done makes the game more fun because it allows people to play the game better. My dad is not a great golfer, but I know that he still loves the game and loves the fact that the technological advances allow him to hit better shots and hit the ball further, which makes the game more enjoyable for him. Also, the same parallels can be drawn between golf and cycling...if you know what you're looking for, buying equipment on Ebay can be significantly cheaper than buying in retail stores. Yes, you lose the experience of using the local retailer (I really like my local bike shop, but the same can't be said for the local golf shop), but you can't argue with the savings that you get. Also, look for last year's model on a lot of stuff, it can save you a good bit. Bottom line: do your homework, then give Ebay a shot.
    Wrong way to go in golf equipment. Getting cutom fit if you have a reasonably repeatable golf swing will tell you why. It is huge. Nowadays, custom fitting through technology has taken a quantum leap.

    Up until last few years, custom fitting consisted of putting these special stickers on the sole and face of a fitting kit of six irons, all with different lie angles, shaft stiffnesses, kick points. Anyway, it was amazing how you would find the right club out of dozens for you. Now, places like athis golf shop behind Montgomery Mall (the owner does a weekly show early saturday mornings on 980) takes fitting to an entirely different level. The old type fitting is terrific and free if you order clubs through the fitter. The latter is $100 per hour. I am told that the latter is a must for driver and woods.

    The lie of your club determines swing plane. Your plane is your plane. A club lie that is different will not produce quality contact. Stiffness and kick point have everything to do with whether the machine that is the golf club in your hands will be in or out of sync for how your club excellerates. Launch angles with driver and fairway woods now for the mid to upper range handicappers can add many yards and accuracy for the shot. check out www://mikehebron.com; there is a free library that might have information that will allow you to understand the importance of fitting better.

    I am told that the same applies to bikes. To get a whiff of what fitting is about for them, go to a Performance Bike store or even some Hudson Trail stores. If you schmooze enough and seem a real potential buyer, they might even do it for nothing, or charge you 25 bucks, and you will understand how even off the shelf bikes have different geometries, some of which will be much more comfortable and produce much better results than others. Of course, with them, their range of what fits you best will be what they carry.

    Getting into the world of maipei with custom frames, space age materials, wheels and hubs that can cost more than many off the shelf bikes, is a whole other universe.

    If you want to have a terrific day with your dad. Hebron spends the late fall-searly spring at a resort in the town of Pinehurst. (the other season in Smithtown, LI). He runs a day clinic about once a week. Small classes, 8 or so people. Two hundred a head. Guys with his profile, among teaching pros it has hard to find someone who does not know of his work, would charge a couple of grand for theirs. Very interesting perspectives presented by a true iconoclast. Designed to improve your concepts, not your lowest score; maybe your highest, though, paraphrasing Mike..

  19. #19
    I biked into work for several years... now I walk. Does that count?

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by hurleyfor3 View Post
    I biked into work for several years... now I walk. Does that count?
    depends on shoe size and composition, i think. and, doesn't everybody, walk "into work", that is?
    Last edited by greybeard; 07-29-2007 at 01:35 PM.

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