New Orleans Saints Sanctioned

[cf-62]

This has really sickened me. 2 years ago, I was one of what felt like an extremely tiny set of fans (outside of Indiana) rooting for the Colts in the Super Bowl. A major reason for that back then was a reaction based on what I felt was 3 hours of consistently dirty play in the Vikings game by the Saints. I remember at least 2 hits at Favre at his knees, and my guess is that if I went back and watched the game, there would be many many more.

Tom Jackson said this exact same thing a few days ago. He said that when he was "watching it at the time" that hits were late, low, illegal, and "seemed to be intentional."

Well, now we know they were.

ESPN has reported that the Saints could be hit with a 7 figure fine, that Williams may be suspended for a year, and that Loomis and Peyton should also expect multi-game suspensions and huge fines.

I'm sorry, but that's not good enough. How coincidental that a bounty system was put in place for knocking out players - and 2 of the greatest quarterbacks that have ever played the game have not played since their game with the Saints. Yes, Favre is old - and there's no causal link to Manning's physical troubles with hits in the superbowl, but BF went from a lithe, agile MVP level quarterback, to a limping, old warrior in the course of a single game - a game in which there were numerous uncalled late and low hits.

How much of a message should be sent? Obviously, stripping the world championship isn't viable (or even called for). But the Patriots lost a draft pick (and $750,000 in cumulative fines) for spying on a sideline. What is the health of opponents' superstars worth? $5M? $10M? An entire draft?

I would expect Peyton and Loomis to be fined $1M each, Williams to be fined $250,000 and suspended for the year. I don't think it would too far out of bounds to see a $10M fine levied against the Saints. If there's one thing true about professional sports, it's this. Superstars drive the business. The league will make an example here to protect the golden goose.

[Blue in the Face]

How coincidental that a bounty system was put in place for knocking out players - and 2 of the greatest quarterbacks that have ever played the game have not played since their game with the Saints.

Both Favre and Manning played the entire 2010 season following the games against the Saints to which you refer.

[Tom B.]

This has really sickened me. 2 years ago, I was one of what felt like an extremely tiny set of fans (outside of Indiana) rooting for the Colts in the Super Bowl. A major reason for that back then was a reaction based on what I felt was 3 hours of consistently dirty play in the Vikings game by the Saints. I remember at least 2 hits at Favre at his knees, and my guess is that if I went back and watched the game, there would be many many more.

Tom Jackson said this exact same thing a few days ago. He said that when he was "watching it at the time" that hits were late, low, illegal, and "seemed to be intentional."

Well, now we know they were.

ESPN has reported that the Saints could be hit with a 7 figure fine, that Williams may be suspended for a year, and that Loomis and Peyton should also expect multi-game suspensions and huge fines.

I'm sorry, but that's not good enough. How coincidental that a bounty system was put in place for knocking out players - and 2 of the greatest quarterbacks that have ever played the game have not played since their game with the Saints. Yes, Favre is old - and there's no causal link to Manning's physical troubles with hits in the superbowl, but BF went from a lithe, agile MVP level quarterback, to a limping, old warrior in the course of a single game - a game in which there were numerous uncalled late and low hits.

How much of a message should be sent? Obviously, stripping the world championship isn't viable (or even called for). But the Patriots lost a draft pick (and $750,000 in cumulative fines) for spying on a sideline. What is the health of opponents' superstars worth? $5M? $10M? An entire draft?

I would expect Peyton and Loomis to be fined $1M each, Williams to be fined $250,000 and suspended for the year. I don't think it would too far out of bounds to see a $10M fine levied against the Saints. If there's one thing true about professional sports, it's this. Superstars drive the business. The league will make an example here to protect the golden goose.

You're not alone in your sentiments.

[cf-62]

Both Favre and Manning played the entire 2010 season following the games against the Saints to which you refer.

Oops - you're right. That year must have been blocked out of my mind.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Since this situation came to light, I've begun to wonder what else in the NFL is going on behind the scenes.

[sagegrouse]

IMHO there are three problems with the Saints' situation a la Gregg (the third G stands for genius) Williams:

1. Prohibited by NCAA Rules. Performance bonuses not specified in player contracts are not permitted under NCAA rules and the CBA. If this prohibition weren't there, it is not clear the NCAA could do a thing about it.
2. Injuries, not Interceptions. Substantively, the problem is that the "bounties" emphasized injuries, not sacks or interceptions or fumbles caused or fumbles recovered or two special team blocks on one play or many other things that are positives from a football standpoint. These things have been the subject of locker room pools for a long time. And probably still are, but only involving the players. And how does a few hundred dollars affect the performance of players who make millions? It's bragging rights and peer recognition. Why do high-paid execs exult over winning a few bucks from their friends on the golf course? Informal player pools on, say, interceptions may be allowed or not allowed; but certainly, once Gregg (the third G stands for God) Williams organized them and kicked in some of his own money, it was clearly against any of the rules.
3. Horrible Timing for the NFL. This is a really big deal because of the bad pub and litigation the NFL faces on debilitating injuries and long-term damage from concussions. Five years ago this would have gotten a slap on the wrist. Now I think Gregg (the third G stands for Goner) Williams gets to sit out the year and, considering downstream effects, will lose well over a million bucks for his transgression. Saints Coach Payton and the GM Mickey Loomis will get fines and/or suspensions. (I don't think a four-game suspension makes much sense for a GM).

FWIW I think the Redskins will not be punished. No coaches or execs are still there from the time when Gregg (the third G stands for Go-fish) Williams was the defensive coordinator.

sagegrouse

[cf-62]

You're not alone in your sentiments.

You know, the biggest issue will ultimately call the officiating into the spotlight.

The play-by-play viewing in the link above calls out multiple plays, including the first of the game, that should have been called Personal Foul penalties. Of course, the refs are (given that everybody is just a little hyped, and it's a championship game) giving leeway on marginal calls.

But if you know that these hits are likely intentional and meant to knock a player out of a game, then they are no longer marginal - and one would have to think these would have all been called - and that at least one ejection, if not more, would have occurred.

Until now, I don't think it's unreasonable for referees to assume that nobody is trying to hurt a player on the other team, given that it is the attitude of the league for decades. But they certainly can't afford to continue that way if it's not true. Every low hit on a QB, every head slap after the play, etc. will have to be called. And they may have to go with replays (a la College hoops flagrant I/II rules). If they can determine quickly if illegal contact was egregious, then why wait for the league to come down with the $50,000 fine on Tuesday? Toss the dude out on the spot.

[BD80]

With the admissions that are coming out, how about legal actions by teams that lost players to injury? Certainly would be an intentional tort directed at the opposing team's ability to compete. Such intentional action would be outside the scope of any collective agreement between the teams

Tony Dungy tracked the Peyton Manning injury to a game against William's Redskins about 3 years ago, how about an action based upon the Colts releasing Manning today WITHOUT COMPENSATION due in large part to that injury. On the open market, a healthy Manning would be worth 3 or 4 first round picks. How much is that worth in $?

I'd like to see teams come up with lists of players they believe may have been injured by the bounty system, and have the NFL grant them extra draft picks, while penalizing the Saints, Skins and Bills draft picks for injuries the system caused.

[Jim3k]

There has been some discussion in the papers about bounty-hunting simply being a fact of life in the NFL. In fact, Dexter Manley has asserted that Forty-Niners' legendary coach Bill Walsh used it as a means to winning.

Today, in the Contra Costa Times, Carmen Policy and others deny, even refute, Manley's allegations. It does appear that Manley found himself the target of Russ Francis, who whacked him hard. But somehow Manley's allegation doesn't seem particularly valid. Certainly Francis did not injure Manley. Walsh simply allowed Manley's own aggressiveness to work against him. Happened twice in the same game--so, Dex, didn't you learn after the first time? Neither of the blocks caused him to leave the game.

As a serious Forty-Niner watcher during those years, I had never heard the Forty-Niners being accused of playing dirty, much less that they used bounty hunting as a technique.

Still, bounty-hunting seems to be a way of motivating players which is way outside the bounds of sport.

OTOH, sending a scrub into a basketball game to provoke a foul from the other team's star...hey! Fully within those bounds.

[Mal]

Vikings fans thank you, cf-62. It was patently clear from the get-go to us partisans that the Saints defense was cheapshotting Favre all over the place. Of course this is the sort of thing that would happen to the most cursed team in the NFL when they had their best chance to win a Super Bowl in a decade, and of course there would be nothing anyone can do about truly rectifying it. Frankly, I would not be surprised if what happened in that NFC Championship Game was beyond a bounty, and more in the style of Gregg Williams telling his guys straight up to take as many shots as they could at Favre, penalties be dam#ed. [Full disclosure - as I'm sure we can find in evidence in posts from the time on this board, I did not climb aboard the Purple Favre Express that year, but nonetheless feel justified in my grousing in hindsight]

I'm with Steve Young - I'd love to see a (probably now-retired) player who was injured in a Saints game go sue them.

[cato]

With the admissions that are coming out, how about legal actions by teams that lost players to injury? Certainly would be an intentional tort directed at the opposing team's ability to compete. Such intentional action would be outside the scope of any collective agreement between the teams

Tony Dungy tracked the Peyton Manning injury to a game against William's Redskins about 3 years ago, how about an action based upon the Colts releasing Manning today WITHOUT COMPENSATION due in large part to that injury. On the open market, a healthy Manning would be worth 3 or 4 first round picks. How much is that worth in $?

I'd like to see teams come up with lists of players they believe may have been injured by the bounty system, and have the NFL grant them extra draft picks, while penalizing the Saints, Skins and Bills draft picks for injuries the system caused.

Very interesting, but wouldn't causation be a problem? It's one thing for Dungy to track an injury to a particular game; it's another thing to prove that connection.

[BD80]

Very interesting, but wouldn't causation be a problem? It's one thing for Dungy to track an injury to a particular game; it's another thing to prove that connection.

File the case in Indianapolis. Problem solved.

[cf-62]

With the admissions that are coming out, how about legal actions by teams that lost players to injury? Certainly would be an intentional tort directed at the opposing team's ability to compete. Such intentional action would be outside the scope of any collective agreement between the teams

Tony Dungy tracked the Peyton Manning injury to a game against William's Redskins about 3 years ago, how about an action based upon the Colts releasing Manning today WITHOUT COMPENSATION due in large part to that injury. On the open market, a healthy Manning would be worth 3 or 4 first round picks. How much is that worth in $?

I'd like to see teams come up with lists of players they believe may have been injured by the bounty system, and have the NFL grant them extra draft picks, while penalizing the Saints, Skins and Bills draft picks for injuries the system caused.

IANAL - but it seems to me that this is just a simple matter of NFL wealth being moved from one location to another (wealth in the form of players, money, and draft picks).

What would be more interesting to me is if a set of players filed lawsuits against the Saints - which would have the "added bonus" of potentially devastating serious punitive assessments. What IF Manning can point to his injury - and the Redskins - and say "you cost me 28 million dollars" ? What's the aspect of punitives when actual damages amount to 8 figures?

[Chicago 1995]

I'm not condoning what the Saints did, but I'm having a hard time building up the outrage that nearly everyone else seems to have found for the bounty system.

Let me be clear, I’m really, really troubled by the long term health impacts of playing football, and especially professional football. It was bad enough for me when it was seeing Earl Campbell struggle to get out of bed or hearing about Walter Payton (or countless others) that were abusing over-the-counter anti-inflammatories or pain killers, let alone the guys that struggled with addiction to stronger pain meds. That entered a whole new realm of horror when the problems with concussions started to be discussed and then the deaths of Chris Henry and Dave Duerson and the discoveries of CTE is so many former football players has me to a point where I certainly don’t want my son to play football, and I wonder how viable football is as a sport in the long-term. Given those concerns, what the Saints did was abhorrent. If you think about it, they were actually incentivizing knocking someone out cold, and literally doing long-term damage to that person and quite possibly shortening that person’s life span. I don’t know how you can tolerated that behavior, either within society at large or within the strange society that is football. Understanding all this, I should be furious.

Yet, I’m not. I don’t know whether I’m hardened to the nature of the game or I’m such a cynic I can’t see straight, but what the Saints were doing is part of football going down to the high school level and has been forever. My high school team (Class of '91) got stickers for our helmets for any number of reasons, including TDs, INTs, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries. Big hits were part of that reward system, including breaking a wedge on kickoff coverage, knocking a guy off his feet in blocking and the ambiguous big hits on defense. My senior year we ran a reverse pretty regularly. In that play, the backside tackle, who normally just blocked down, instead released to the second level to get the backside outside backer to seal the lane. Anyway, we’re down 20 or so at the end of the first half to a pretty good team in our conference. We call the reverse, and I’m the backside tackle. For whatever reason, our opponents *really* bit on the play fake, and when I came off the down block to seal the backside OLB, the backside OLB had overpursued, and I was now outside him by a good three or four steps. Watching the ball carrier, he never saw me and I unloaded. Set the seal and we scored on the play. Bully for us. The OLB that I blew up, a junior who had been all-conference in basketball as a sophomore, didn’t get up. His cleat stuck, and his lower leg snapped. Ambulanced off the field. I got two stickers for that hit. I got my bounty. He never played football again and was a shell of the basketball player he had been. Maybe the severity of the injury is unusual, but the culture of rewarding plays like that isn't. It's embraced at every level of football.

Even if you take away the incentive system (dollars or helmet stickers or whatever else – other HS teams in our area got out of conditioning after enough big plays), you can’t take away the physical nature of football, and what naturally comes out in scouting reports. Tom Brady, especially after Jerrod Page destroyed his knee, gets skittish if you hit him, and is a far less accurate and effective QB if he isn’t staying clear. Generally, that’s true of every QB. So you can’t put that in the scouting report? Adrian Peterson’s nursing a broken pointer finger. You can’t attack the ball? You can’t go after running back or a WR has bruised ribs? Why is it okay for a team to use that thinking to its tactical advantage, but it becomes not okay when a token financial incentive is placed on this activity? This is the game we love. This is the game that is now the American passtime. The violence can't be separated from it, and I can't muster shock and outrage when I am reminded how much it is part and parcel of this game.

I have a very hard time thinking that the penalties for these bounties should surpass what the Pats got for Spygate. What the Pats did had at least the potential to effect the integrity of the game. It provided an unfair competative advantage that wasn't part of the normal course of the game. Did the Saints get a competative advantage from hitting Favre in the 2009 NFC title game? Of course, but it wasn't an unfair advantage, and that same advantage would have been there bounties or not. The other reason I can't condone sanctions in excess of Spygate is that it seems like the Saints aren't alone in all of this. Gregg Williams has been up to this for years. There's evidence of bounties in Tennessee. Rumblings of bounties in Baltimore. This is more a part of the culture of football than we'd like, but it is part of that culture. To suddenly change course and make such a gross example of the Saints doesn't sit with me, and makes me question what other motives there are for the sanction. Tom Benson's not a beloved owner like Bob Kraft, and that might help explain why Spygate's going to end up less a big deal than these bounties, even if that shouldn't matter a bit.

If health and safety is so truly important to Park Avenue and Roger Goodell, they need to do more about the way the game is marketed and played. Big hits can't be part of highlight packages. "Kill shots" can't sell the game anymore. Otherwise, fines or suspensions or not, they won't change. If there's an investigation into anything, what about what happened to Kris Diehlman? More ink was spilled last Friday in 140 character bursts on Twitter about these bounties than has been used to date on Diehlman, who clearly didn't get proper treatment or medical advice from the Chargers, has seen his career end and is lucky to be alive after his concussion and seizure earlier in the season. Where's the outrage on Dielman's behalf?

This bounty system was a terrible thing, but I don't know how you divorce it and the culture that spurred it from football. If you love the game, you have to accept this, even if you don't like it, and if you can't do that, football's not the game for you. I don't know that it's a game for me anymore.

[rasputin]

With the admissions that are coming out, how about legal actions by teams that lost players to injury? Certainly would be an intentional tort directed at the opposing team's ability to compete. Such intentional action would be outside the scope of any collective agreement between the teams

Tony Dungy tracked the Peyton Manning injury to a game against William's Redskins about 3 years ago, how about an action based upon the Colts releasing Manning today WITHOUT COMPENSATION due in large part to that injury. On the open market, a healthy Manning would be worth 3 or 4 first round picks. How much is that worth in $?

I'd like to see teams come up with lists of players they believe may have been injured by the bounty system, and have the NFL grant them extra draft picks, while penalizing the Saints, Skins and Bills draft picks for injuries the system caused.

Instead, the NFL will punish the Rams, which had nothing to do with this, and probably didn't know about it when they hired Gregggg to be their defensive coordinator. And they'll put Cleveland State on probation.

[cf-62]

I'm not condoning what the Saints did, but I'm having a hard time building up the outrage that nearly everyone else seems to have found for the bounty system.

Let me be clear, I’m really, really troubled by the long term health impacts of playing football, and especially professional football. It was bad enough for me when it was seeing Earl Campbell struggle to get out of bed or hearing about Walter Payton (or countless others) that were abusing over-the-counter anti-inflammatories or pain killers, let alone the guys that struggled with addiction to stronger pain meds. That entered a whole new realm of horror when the problems with concussions started to be discussed and then the deaths of Chris Henry and Dave Duerson and the discoveries of CTE is so many former football players has me to a point where I certainly don’t want my son to play football, and I wonder how viable football is as a sport in the long-term. Given those concerns, what the Saints did was abhorrent. If you think about it, they were actually incentivizing knocking someone out cold, and literally doing long-term damage to that person and quite possibly shortening that person’s life span. I don’t know how you can tolerated that behavior, either within society at large or within the strange society that is football. Understanding all this, I should be furious.

Yet, I’m not. I don’t know whether I’m hardened to the nature of the game or I’m such a cynic I can’t see straight, but what the Saints were doing is part of football going down to the high school level and has been forever. My high school team (Class of '91) got stickers for our helmets for any number of reasons, including TDs, INTs, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries. Big hits were part of that reward system, including breaking a wedge on kickoff coverage, knocking a guy off his feet in blocking and the ambiguous big hits on defense. My senior year we ran a reverse pretty regularly. In that play, the backside tackle, who normally just blocked down, instead released to the second level to get the backside outside backer to seal the lane. Anyway, we’re down 20 or so at the end of the first half to a pretty good team in our conference. We call the reverse, and I’m the backside tackle. For whatever reason, our opponents *really* bit on the play fake, and when I came off the down block to seal the backside OLB, the backside OLB had overpursued, and I was now outside him by a good three or four steps. Watching the ball carrier, he never saw me and I unloaded. Set the seal and we scored on the play. Bully for us. The OLB that I blew up, a junior who had been all-conference in basketball as a sophomore, didn’t get up. His cleat stuck, and his lower leg snapped. Ambulanced off the field. I got two stickers for that hit. I got my bounty. He never played football again and was a shell of the basketball player he had been. Maybe the severity of the injury is unusual, but the culture of rewarding plays like that isn't. It's embraced at every level of football.

Even if you take away the incentive system (dollars or helmet stickers or whatever else – other HS teams in our area got out of conditioning after enough big plays), you can’t take away the physical nature of football, and what naturally comes out in scouting reports. Tom Brady, especially after Jerrod Page destroyed his knee, gets skittish if you hit him, and is a far less accurate and effective QB if he isn’t staying clear. Generally, that’s true of every QB. So you can’t put that in the scouting report? Adrian Peterson’s nursing a broken pointer finger. You can’t attack the ball? You can’t go after running back or a WR has bruised ribs? Why is it okay for a team to use that thinking to its tactical advantage, but it becomes not okay when a token financial incentive is placed on this activity? This is the game we love. This is the game that is now the American passtime. The violence can't be separated from it, and I can't muster shock and outrage when I am reminded how much it is part and parcel of this game.

I have a very hard time thinking that the penalties for these bounties should surpass what the Pats got for Spygate. What the Pats did had at least the potential to effect the integrity of the game. It provided an unfair competative advantage that wasn't part of the normal course of the game. Did the Saints get a competative advantage from hitting Favre in the 2009 NFC title game? Of course, but it wasn't an unfair advantage, and that same advantage would have been there bounties or not. The other reason I can't condone sanctions in excess of Spygate is that it seems like the Saints aren't alone in all of this. Gregg Williams has been up to this for years. There's evidence of bounties in Tennessee. Rumblings of bounties in Baltimore. This is more a part of the culture of football than we'd like, but it is part of that culture. To suddenly change course and make such a gross example of the Saints doesn't sit with me, and makes me question what other motives there are for the sanction. Tom Benson's not a beloved owner like Bob Kraft, and that might help explain why Spygate's going to end up less a big deal than these bounties, even if that shouldn't matter a bit.

If health and safety is so truly important to Park Avenue and Roger Goodell, they need to do more about the way the game is marketed and played. Big hits can't be part of highlight packages. "Kill shots" can't sell the game anymore. Otherwise, fines or suspensions or not, they won't change. If there's an investigation into anything, what about what happened to Kris Diehlman? More ink was spilled last Friday in 140 character bursts on Twitter about these bounties than has been used to date on Diehlman, who clearly didn't get proper treatment or medical advice from the Chargers, has seen his career end and is lucky to be alive after his concussion and seizure earlier in the season. Where's the outrage on Dielman's behalf?

This bounty system was a terrible thing, but I don't know how you divorce it and the culture that spurred it from football. If you love the game, you have to accept this, even if you don't like it, and if you can't do that, football's not the game for you. I don't know that it's a game for me anymore.

This whole argument was one side of the debate between the ESPN NFL alums, especially Golic. And while what you describe is true, it's also accepted that in the NFL, players do not try to blow up other players out of a mutual professional respect. For those that don't (mainly named "Harrison") they are learning that the league won't tolerate this anymore - even on receivers coming across the middle.

My issue is that referees (properly to date) don't call marginal calls in big games. But these aren't marginal calls if the play is intentional. A low hit because I "just want to get to the QB because it's a championship is let go. A low hit because I'm trying to knock the QB out of the game is a 15 yard penalty.

And while it is certainly exciting to see a receiver blown up, I wish safeties and CBs would be tossed from the game when they hit a receiver high. In fact, given that they might be TRYING to knock a player out of a game, they probably will be at the start of next season.

[hurleyfor3]

I'm not condoning what the Saints did, but I'm having a hard time building up the outrage that nearly everyone else seems to have found for the bounty system.

Too long; didn't read.

But I agree this is just another symptom of us becoming a society of sanctimonious sissies, and the nfl taking itself way too seriously. People! It's football!

How about the way everyone who's ever slid into second base in the history of baseball tries to cut out the legs of the guy trying to turn the double play?

[bjornolf]

I'd like to see teams come up with lists of players they believe may have been injured by the bounty system, and have the NFL grant them extra draft picks, while penalizing the Saints, Skins and Bills draft picks for injuries the system caused.

The problem with this is that there is no evidence that the organizations knew anything about it in the case of the Redskins and Bills. In fact, there is a lot of evidence to the contrary. In the case of the Saints, there is a ton of evidence that the organization not only knew, but condoned the action by not actively putting a stop to it. If it were shown that the front office knew in these other cases, I'd agree completely, but that just isn't going to happen with the other two teams.

[allenmurray]

But I agree this is just another symptom of us becoming a society of sanctimonious sissies, and the nfl taking itself way too seriously. People! It's football!

How about the way everyone who's ever slid into second base in the history of baseball tries to cut out the legs of the guy trying to turn the double play?

Yeah! And what is with all these pads and helmets? Get rid of them too and let real men play - pads and helmets are for wimps. If you're not willing to risk permanent injury or death you shouldn't be on the field. It is always more fun to watch if players get bloodied and have to be carried off the field. I can't wait until we see the first on-field death - the ratings will skyrocket!

The sport is brutal - having proper equipment and rules, both of which are designed to prevent permanant injury, is not evidence of being "sissies" it is evidence of civilization. And to draw a paralell between the kinds of injuries sufrered by football players and those sufferred by baseball players simply ignores massive amounts of medical evidence.

[Tom B.]

Some early reports on the penalties are trickling out:


Gregg Williams suspended indefinitely.

Sean Payton suspended for a year.

Mickey Loomis (Saints G.M.) suspended for eight games.

It's also being reported that the Saints will be stripped of draft picks and be fined, but the particulars haven't been announced yet.