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  1. #21
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    Oct 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    I thought the problem tonight was that we did not fight like crazy, not that we needed PT from a 6'7' freshman. If we had matched UNC's mental effort and fight, we could have won.
    We cut a 26 point lead down to 11....I'm not sure how much more fight you can ask for.
    9f

  2. #22
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    Oct 2007
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    Cabbagetown, Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    We cut a 26 point lead down to 11....I'm not sure how much more fight you can ask for.
    That's my point. When we started fighting, we started to come back. I'm "asking" for 40 minutes.

    We were fighting at 2 very different levels within this game. One when we went down 18-5, another when we were a missed Curry 3 pointer away from cutting it to single digits.

  3. #23
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    Oct 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    That's my point. When we started fighting, we started to come back. I'm "asking" for 40 minutes.

    We were fighting at 2 very different levels within this game. One when we went down 18-5, another when we were a missed Curry 3 pointer away from cutting it to single digits.
    I disagree. Missed shots do not constitute a lack of effort. They scored any way they wanted to all game......we could not defend them. That doesn't mean the effort or the fight wasn't there....
    9f

  4. #24
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    Oct 2007
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    Cabbagetown, Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    I disagree. Missed shots do not constitute a lack of effort. They scored any way they wanted to all game......we could not defend them. That doesn't mean the effort or the fight wasn't there....
    Yeah, but the effort/fight wasn't there. It showed up in the second half. The difference in the two halves wasn't that we missed shots in the first and made them in the second. Please tell me that you saw the play in the second half was more inspired than the first!

  5. #25
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    Feb 2008
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    Wilmington
    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    Yeah, but the effort/fight wasn't there. It showed up in the second half. The difference in the two halves wasn't that we missed shots in the first and made them in the second. Please tell me that you saw the play in the second half was more inspired than the first!
    I disagree. I think the fight was there the whole game. No, we didn't press the whole game , as that too takes a toll on players.. but the team in the ugly bleu started slowing it down,spreading the court, milking the clock and had some missed shots,, with a spread court, they weren't packed in as well to get their own offensive rebound and we got a few more..
    We just couldn't hit any open shots in the first 10- 15 min of the game and unc played their normal game and we were down by 15-20 points.. We hit 40% of those open 3's and it's a different game.. But we didn't.. The effort was there..

    I just don't see how one can say we didn't have the same effort.. durning our mini runs in the second half, we still missed open 3's and even lay ups ,, the effort was there.. it just wasn't our night, and unc was more of a machine running smoothly.

  6. #26
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    Feb 2008
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    On the couch
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I doubt he would have helped. Barnes only scored 16 points, and it's not realistic to expect a freshman wing to drastically improve our overall team defense.
    I doubt it as well for a couple of reasons, the primary one is that K though he should red-shirt.

    I doubt that he would have made an impact at all this season, and the year of practice, growth and mental maturity will have to help him down the road. I just can't see AM taking us to a higher level this year.

    Plus, with the way recruiting has gone this year, it will be nice to have him in that "2012" class...

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    ...as we saw when Quinn was hyped to death and hasn't been the major contributor many here thought he would be...
    I think that is the the fault of the people who hyped him more so than Quinn's fault.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Fayetteville, NC
    I think that the OP's question is a valid one. I guess my answer to it is yes, it was. Considering Silent G has been available the whole season and has barely sniffed the court, let alone been a major contributor, I can't say that Alex being available would have yielded much better results than we saw from Mike, unless he's a far superior player and I never really read that anywhere on this board.

    I will say that the majority of us knew from the early games, SF would be a problem for us this season. Several pinned their hopes on Dre, but the consistency just isn't there yet and I'm beginning to wonder if it will ever be.

  9. #29
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    Oct 2009
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorp4me View Post
    I think that is the the fault of the people who hyped him more so than Quinn's fault.
    Yup. I was simply pointing out that i was trying to avoid the same mistake here in pretending that alex could or would have been a savior.
    9f

  10. #30
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    Oct 2007
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    Cabbagetown, Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue View Post
    I disagree. I think the fight was there the whole game. No, we didn't press the whole game , as that too takes a toll on players.. but the team in the ugly bleu started slowing it down,spreading the court, milking the clock and had some missed shots,, with a spread court, they weren't packed in as well to get their own offensive rebound and we got a few more..
    We just couldn't hit any open shots in the first 10- 15 min of the game and unc played their normal game and we were down by 15-20 points.. We hit 40% of those open 3's and it's a different game.. But we didn't.. The effort was there..

    I just don't see how one can say we didn't have the same effort.. durning our mini runs in the second half, we still missed open 3's and even lay ups ,, the effort was there.. it just wasn't our night, and unc was more of a machine running smoothly.
    Do you think the team said "Coach K, it just wasn't our night," and he said "Oh, OK."

    I hear a lot about statistics on this site, but there is more to the game than that. "Fight" and "heart" are also about making shots. 48-24 is more than just not hitting open shots. It's fine to list statistics, but those numbers don't exist in a vacuum, and they are an effect, not a cause. We missed those shots because we were not fighting. We didn't go down 48-24 because our shooting percentage fell 2 statistical deviations under the mean randomly during the biggest game of the year against our biggest rival.

    To me, the Duke team that came out after half time (Mason in particular) was not the same as the team on the floor in the first half, and it wasn't just because statistics were evening themselves out.

  11. #31
    Have to admit, the fact that we felt like we were looking for some longer, athletic wings all year and yet we had two on the bench (Alex and Mike) just made me scratch my head. I know that K obviously knows a lot more than I do, but given how Andre had games where he barely played, and Quinn looked decidedly like a freshman for long stretches of the season, is the lineup of Tyler-Seth-Austin SO good that NO time can be found for two very highly rated recruits (Alex was like Top 10 or so in his original class!) with some size and ability?

    Definitely leaves me scratching my head. IMVHO, Alex Murphy should have played this year.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    I disagree. Missed shots do not constitute a lack of effort. They scored any way they wanted to all game......we could not defend them. That doesn't mean the effort or the fight wasn't there....
    The guards failing to keep their men off the boards in the first half was evidence of a lack of fight. UNC's guards were bigger, but it wasn't an issue of size that allowed them to get to the boards. It was a lack of any attention to boxing them out. Hairston and Bullock each had easy trots into the paint to pick up offensive rebounds. McAdoo and Barnes did as well. Rebounding stats are largely evidence of "fight" (especially when it comes to guard rebounding). And we got killed on both ends of the floor in this stat.

    Granted, the inability to defend Marshall and the great shooting from Henson and Zeller and the poor fortune for us on the offensive end were just as key if not moreso. But I think it would be very easy to argue that UNC had at least a bit more fight in them then we did. At least in the first half.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    We cut a 26 point lead down to 11....I'm not sure how much more fight you can ask for.
    not getting down 26, at home, to the biggest rival. That would be the kind of fight i would ask for.

  14. #34
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    Oct 2009
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    not getting down 26, at home, to the biggest rival. That would be the kind of fight i would ask for.
    Guess they should have willed those 15 straight missed shots into the basket?

    I do mean to be snarky, specifically because it bothers me that people come on here and go to rip kids who went out there and gave it their all for 40 minutes. We came out, we had a bad offensive stretch when things weren't falling, and we played them even for the last 30 minutes of the game.....I might even say that being so excited to play, so amped up, might have contributed to missing the shots. We wanted it just as much as they did, its just that we let that excitement, that adrenaline negatively affect our game.

    If there was actually less "heart" in the first 10 minutes, then we should have seen an affect on both their offensive output and their rebounding....but those were very consistent throughout the whole game. pretty much the only thing that changed between the first 10 minutes and the rest of the game was that we made some shots.

    If you want to rip kids whose crime is missing some shots....and say that its because they weren't trying hard enough, be my guest.
    9f

  15. #35
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    Oct 2007
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    Cabbagetown, Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    ...it bothers me that people come on here and go to rip kids who went out there and gave it their all for 40 minutes.

    Pretty much the only thing that changed between the first 10 minutes and the rest of the game was that we made some shots.
    This is essentially what we disagree on. I say there was a major change. You saw no difference. It's crazy that we see things so differently. It's almost like we were watching different games.

    I have yet to rip anyone though. I hardly think noting that we didn't have enough fight is ripping. We are all allowed to opine on the team around here as long as it's not destructive or insulting.

    Crazy... 48-24, and the sole reason for that is missed shots? I just don't see it. We definitely missed some shots that we should have made. It was like there was a lid on the basket... but I think there has to be a reason for that many missed shots. I don't think it's the difference in talent between the two teams, as we have played them even in 2 of the 4 halves of basketball this year. I also don't think it's a statistical aberration. It's just too damn big of an aberration to randomly rear its head against our biggest rival, especially following the final shot in the last game that we played them in. UNC fought harder and deserved the win. The quotes following the game from our own team point to this.

  16. #36
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    Oct 2009
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    This is essentially what we disagree on. I say there was a major change. You saw no difference. It's crazy that we see things so differently. It's almost like we were watching different games.

    I have yet to rip anyone though. I hardly think noting that we didn't have enough fight is ripping. We are all allowed to opine on the team around here as long as it's not destructive or insulting.

    Crazy... 48-24, and the sole reason for that is missed shots? I just don't see it. We definitely missed some shots that we should have made. It was like there was a lid on the basket... but I think there has to be a reason for that many missed shots. I don't think it's the difference in talent between the two teams, as we have played them even in 2 of the 4 halves of basketball this year. I also don't think it's a statistical aberration. It's just too damn big of an aberration to randomly rear its head against our biggest rival, especially following the final shot in the last game that we played them in. UNC fought harder and deserved the win. The quotes following the game from our own team point to this.
    we missed 15 straight........it was 22-5.....the rest of game score was 66-65.....the only difference I saw between the first 10 minutes when we got blown out, and the last 30 when we tied was 15 straight missed shots...our defense was consistent (as bad as it was, it was consistent)....our rebounding was fairly consistent (also bad).....our offense was the only thing that showed a stark difference between the start and the rest of the game. And the stagnation was not taking bad shots.....we missed layups, we missed threes, we missed floaters, we missed mid range jumpers. Are there other things we could do to mitigate poor shooting stretches? yup. and i'm sure they will be worked on. But we came back because we hit shots....not because we were playing harder.

    Again, how hard you play is often reflected much more in defense and rebounding than offense....and those things were bad throughout....so I'm not sure you can say that is evidence of not playing hard for the first 10 minutes.
    9f

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ash View Post
    Have to admit, the fact that we felt like we were looking for some longer, athletic wings all year and yet we had two on the bench (Alex and Mike) just made me scratch my head. I know that K obviously knows a lot more than I do, but given how Andre had games where he barely played, and Quinn looked decidedly like a freshman for long stretches of the season, is the lineup of Tyler-Seth-Austin SO good that NO time can be found for two very highly rated recruits (Alex was like Top 10 or so in his original class!) with some size and ability?

    Definitely leaves me scratching my head. IMVHO, Alex Murphy should have played this year.
    What is kind of ironic (for lack of a better word right now) is that Coach K, in his post-game presser, mentioned how long UNC was at every position and how you can't teach that. Yet here we are discussing the merits of whether or not it was the right choice to redshirt Murphy, and not play Gbinije much either - two guys that would have provided some of that length you can't teach. Now, before anyone says it, let me: I realize we play the best we have and it just so happens that the better guards and wings we have add up to a smaller than desirable PG/SG/SF combo. But it is food for thought, imho.
    Reading and posting at DBR for over 19 years and loving every... well, almost every minute of it!

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    Do you think the team said "Coach K, it just wasn't our night," and he said "Oh, OK."

    I hear a lot about statistics on this site, but there is more to the game than that. "Fight" and "heart" are also about making shots. 48-24 is more than just not hitting open shots. It's fine to list statistics, but those numbers don't exist in a vacuum, and they are an effect, not a cause. We missed those shots because we were not fighting. We didn't go down 48-24 because our shooting percentage fell 2 statistical deviations under the mean randomly during the biggest game of the year against our biggest rival.

    To me, the Duke team that came out after half time (Mason in particular) was not the same as the team on the floor in the first half, and it wasn't just because statistics were evening themselves out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post

    I have yet to rip anyone though. I hardly think noting that we didn't have enough fight is ripping. We are all allowed to opine on the team around here as long as it's not destructive or insulting.
    Except that you did rip the entire team. Saying someone has no heart is one of the worst insults you can throw at an athlete. I would rather have someone say I can't shoot, can't dribble, can't defend, etc than say I have no heart or no fight. Whether you mean to or not what you are essentially saying is that they weren't trying, that they were missing those shots on purpose.

    Effort and heart can be difficult to judge, especially through a TV screen.

  19. #39
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    Mar 2007
    Location
    Cambridge, MA
    I think he would have helped enormously. Before it was clear he'd be redshirting, wasn't the word that he was playing well enough in practice to fight for a starting spot? With all due respect to Hairston and Gbinje, we could really use a forward that's capable of playing major minutes. It's an obvious hole in our roster.

    All that said, it's always seemed to me that if you're willing to read between the lines a little bit, the redshirt wasn't done for strategic basketball reasons. So it's fine.

  20. #40
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    Sep 2008
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    Philadelphia
    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    Crazy... 48-24, and the sole reason for that is missed shots?
    Well, from 18:53 in the first half to 11:17, we took 8 two-point shots, 7 three-point shots, and 4 free throws, and we missed them all except for one free throw. We were outscored 18-1 in that approximately 7 and a half minute stretch. I don't remember any of those shots being poor shot selection or particularly well defended, so assuming we made our averages on those shots (instead of missing them all), we would have made 4 of the 2s, 3 of the 3s, and 3 of the FTs. That would have been 20 points, instead of 1 point, and instead of 22-5 it would have been 23-22 Duke, and the rest of the game is very different. Three of the shots were taken after offensive rebounds, so for argument's sake let's take away one of the threes, and then it's 22-20 UNC, and still a very different game.

    My guess is if it was 22-20 at that point, and then UNC outscored us 66-65 the rest of the way, you wouldn't be talking about how much of a difference there was in the two segments of the game.
    Last edited by Kedsy; 03-04-2012 at 03:53 PM.

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