How lucky did we get with Coach P?

[uh_no]

This: "The full/true story of Coach G's departure is not in the public record."

All I am saying is statements like Goestenkors simply "quit" or "didn't get along with Alleva" really misrepresent the situation and what when on. By the way uh_no, Texas did not "give her more money." Duke matched Texas' offer.

I have been misled!!!!

I will hunt down the parties that def me these lies!


There must have been something....one does not simply leave a top level program for the same money if they did not think it a better situation...why would she think it a better situation in texas then? No idea.

That was sort of beside the point though, and the crux of my post was that some people were being unfair to coach G here...and saying she deserves to be losing in texas becuase she left us...as if its some sort of karmic occurrence...and I was trying to refute that by trying to show that it was kind of low to criticize her for leaving for what she thought was a better situation...whatever the reason...

[JG Nothing]

She might have reached her potential/gotten that national championship if she hadn't been chasing her "dream job" at Texas during the NCAA tournament. I will always believe her taking interviews with Texas' administration impacted the prep of her final game and may have cost Duke women a national title...Frankly, I think she is reaping what she sowed at Texas...hard to tell recruits how committed you are when you're history indicates that in your team's biggest moment, you were thinking of you.

Please cite the source for your claim that Goestenkors was "taking interviews with Texas' administration" while Duke was still in the NCAA Tournament. Texas did not get permission from Duke to speak with Goestenkors until two days after the lose to Rutgers.

[Kedsy]

You claim the ACC women routinely put half of the league in the top 25 during the P era which is false; more like a third.

This season, at one point or another, 7 ACC women's teams were ranked in the AP top 25 (Duke, Maryland, Miami, Ga Tech, UNC, FSU, and UVa). In 2010-11, at one point or another, 7 ACC women's teams were ranked in the AP top 25 (Duke, Maryland, Miami, Ga Tech, UNC, FSU, and BC). In 2009-10, at one point or another, 7 ACC women's teams were ranked in the AP top 25 (Duke, FSU, UVa, Ga Tech, UNC, Miami, and Maryland). In 2008-09, at one point or another, 6 ACC women's teams were ranked in the AP top 25 (Duke, Maryland, UNC, FSU, UVa, and Ga Tech). A 7th ACC team (Wake Forest) was ranked in the Coach's poll in 2008-09. In 2007-08, at one point or another, 6 ACC women's teams were ranked in the AP top 25 (Duke, Maryland, UNC, UVa, FSU, and Ga Tech). A 7th ACC team (NC State) was ranked in the Coach's poll in 2007-08.

Last I checked, there are 12 teams in the ACC. I only got through four semesters of calculus at Duke, but since 7 ACC teams were ranked every year of P's tenure, I'd say ACC women in fact routinely put more than half of the league in the top 25. So really, it's your claim which is false.

I haven't checked on your other claim, that half of the men's ACC was ranked during K's first 5 years, but perhaps you'd like to validate your own claim?

Also, note that Duke is one of the teams in the AP top 25 in every single year of P's first five years at Duke. I'm pretty sure we we've been ranked every single week of P's time here. I'm also certain K can't say anything close to that about his first five years.

[sagegrouse]

I don't know if Coach G is reaping what she sowed or if it's simply a case of be careful what you wish for. No matter what, it's clear that she doesn't seem to be a great fit at Texas, so I guess the Duke curse is alive and well in Austin.

I'm not sure that's entirely fair to G. She was in what she thought was a bad situation at duke. Texas gave her the money and duke did not. I'm not sure either party is at fault here. Duke didn't want to pay that kind of money to a program which wasn't generating a whole lot of profit (I think they draw a loss...not sure), so they were justified not ponying up from a financial standpoint. You can't blame a coach for leaving when another program is willing to offer more money, especially when you are in a situation where you don't necessarily see eye to eye with the AD.

I've no authority with which to make this request, but I would suggest that we take it easy on both Coach G and Coach P.

The full/true story of Coach G's departure is not in the public record. I'd suggest that all that matters is that she loved Duke, she transformed Duke women's basketball into a juggernaut, she is now at Texas, and she is worthy of our respect as Duke alums and/or fans.

This: "The full/true story of Coach G's departure is not in the public record."

All I am saying is statements like Goestenkors simply "quit" or "didn't get along with Alleva" really misrepresent the situation and what when on. By the way uh_no, Texas did not "give her more money." Duke matched Texas' offer.

As former Wake, So. Car., and ECU coach Dave Odom said, "Sometimes it's best to change jobs after a few years." Some people and coaches want new scenery and new challenges. I have always put G in that camp, of which former Duke coach Bill Foster is a leading example (Rutgers, Utah, Duke and South Carolina). Then there is Eddie Sutton who coached at Creighton, Arkansas, Kentucky, Oklahoma State and San Francisco.

People change jobs. Maybe it isn't their or anyone's fault.

sagegrouse

[killerleft]

I don't think its fair to condemn her based on a single game, but its certainly fair to say that the other elite teams don't usually lose like this in their conference tournaments. The duke women and Coach P aren't there yet. Uconn lost to st johns a couple weeks ago. ND lost to west virginia. Losses happen. NCSU is 5-11 in conference, though. That's pretty bad relative to duke. If duke wants to get up to the pantheon of women's basketball, they can't lose these games.

Again, I think the next 2-3 years will be critical if coach P wants to inarguably establish herself as one of the top coaches in the game.

I don't think it can be said any better than that. Very disappointed in the loss, but State's women were allowed to find a comfort zone and took it from there. It might be a good time to congratulate them on a very well-played game, no matter what happened from a Duke perspective.

[killerleft]

At some point, most of the people in this thread will realize that NCAA Men's Basketball and NCAA Women's Basketball live in two different worlds.

And P was brought here to win a championship, nothing less.

This line is becoming very tiresome, and not without it's own "Duh!" factor. Of course she was brought in to win championships! How strange would it be to strive for anything less? Just because the dearly departed Joe Alleva said something does not make McCallie a failure for not winning a national title in her short time at Duke. I have a hard time believing that you've said this several times in your non-support of Coach P. Give it a rest, dude. Make whatever argument you want, but this one you oughtta leave alone. If you're saying she won't ever win one, spit it out. If not, then the jury is not even deliberating yet, the evidence is STILL BEING PRESENTED!

[77devil]

This season, at one point or another, 7 ACC women's teams were ranked in the AP top 25 (Duke, Maryland, Miami, Ga Tech, UNC, FSU, and UVa). In 2010-11, at one point or another, 7 ACC women's teams were ranked in the AP top 25 (Duke, Maryland, Miami, Ga Tech, UNC, FSU, and BC). In 2009-10, at one point or another, 7 ACC women's teams were ranked in the AP top 25 (Duke, FSU, UVa, Ga Tech, UNC, Miami, and Maryland). In 2008-09, at one point or another, 6 ACC women's teams were ranked in the AP top 25 (Duke, Maryland, UNC, FSU, UVa, and Ga Tech). A 7th ACC team (Wake Forest) was ranked in the Coach's poll in 2008-09. In 2007-08, at one point or another, 6 ACC women's teams were ranked in the AP top 25 (Duke, Maryland, UNC, UVa, FSU, and Ga Tech). A 7th ACC team (NC State) was ranked in the Coach's poll in 2007-08.

Last I checked, there are 12 teams in the ACC. I only got through four semesters of calculus at Duke, but since 7 ACC teams were ranked every year of P's tenure, I'd say ACC women in fact routinely put more than half of the league in the top 25. So really, it's your claim which is false.

I haven't checked on your other claim, that half of the men's ACC was ranked during K's first 5 years, but perhaps you'd like to validate your own claim?

Also, note that Duke is one of the teams in the AP top 25 in every single year of P's first five years at Duke. I'm pretty sure we we've been ranked every single week of P's time here. I'm also certain K can't say anything close to that about his first five years.

You keep trying to change the parameters. "At one point or another" is superfluous. In the 2009-2010 season at one point or another, the UNC men were ranked as high as # 6 and we know how meaningful that was. According to this source, http://www.collegepollarchive.com/wb...m?appollid=631, the final AP poll, it's about 1/3 over the five years as I said before, even when you gratuitously throw in an extra 5 slots. Feel free to check the top 20 data, which is what I stated from the beginning, for the men. I've already done the work. In our exchanges, I'm the one who has provided sources. You, not so much.

Since your response only addressed one item in my previous post, I presume you have conceded the rest. N'est-ce pas?

[Kedsy]

You keep trying to change the parameters. "At one point or another" is superfluous. In the 2009-2010 season at one point or another, the UNC men were ranked as high as # 6 and we know how meaningful that was. According to this source, http://www.collegepollarchive.com/wb...m?appollid=631, the final AP poll, it's about 1/3 over the five years as I said before, even when you gratuitously throw in an extra 5 slots.

My understanding is you've been arguing that Coach K had it tougher than Coach P because there were more good teams in the early '80s men's ACC than there have been in the past five years. To that end, how many teams were good enough to be ranked at any point in the season is a lot more relevant than how many teams happened to be ranked in the final AP poll.

But even if you look at the final poll only, one-third of a 12 team league is the same number of ranked teams as one-half of an 8 team league. If your argument is that the extra few games against the bottom of the league explains the difference between P's 138-31 record over her first five seasons and K's 85-65 record in his first five seasons, then your argument is specious.

Feel free to check the top 20 data, which is what I stated from the beginning, for the men. I've already done the work. In our exchanges, I'm the one who has provided sources. You, not so much.

Other than providing a link to a site that lists the AP rankings, you haven't provided any sources at all. Or any data. I went through every poll for five years and spent a lot of time compiling exactly which women's teams were ranked in each year. I didn't figure you needed the link since it's pretty easy to find a link to the AP poll. On the other hand, you've given us nothing but a general link. If you've "already done the work," why not share with us how many men's teams were ranked during K's first five seasons?

Since your response only addressed one item in my previous post, I presume you have conceded the rest. N'est-ce pas?

Actually, I only addressed one item in your previous post because I didn't find anything else you said worthy of a response.

[77devil]

To that end, how many teams were good enough to be ranked at any point in the season is a lot more relevant than how many teams happened to be ranked in the final AP poll.

This is unsubstantiated opinion to which you are entitled, but it's nothing more. Ranking at any point in the season is a subjective view of the voters based on incomplete information. The final poll reflects all the team's full body of work and is more indicative of the relative strengths and weaknesses which is my opinion. No point in debating this further.

But even if you look at the final poll only, one-third of a 12 team league is the same number of ranked teams as one-half of an 8 team league. If your argument is that the extra few games against the bottom of the league explains the difference between P's 138-31 record over her first five seasons and K's 85-65 record in his first five seasons, then your argument is specious.

I made no such argument. I simply stated that the 8 team ACC in the early 1980's was stronger than the recent 12 team conference(men and women) with no real bottom feeders and a round robin. Your argument appears to be that P is a better coach because of a better record in the first 5 year and there are no extenuating factors.

Other than providing a link to a site that lists the AP rankings, you haven't provided any sources at all. Or any data.

This is inaccurate. I provided a link earlier that disproved one of your unsubstantiated inaccurate statements.

On the other hand, you've given us nothing but a general link. If you've "already done the work," why not share with us how many men's teams were ranked during K's first five seasons?

I already did in an earlier post. If you choose not to believe what I stated before, have at it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iVKPUNoeI4

[Kfanarmy]

Please cite the source for your claim that Goestenkors was "taking interviews with Texas' administration" while Duke was still in the NCAA Tournament. Texas did not get permission from Duke to speak with Goestenkors until two days after the lose to Rutgers.

It was widely reported and as I recall, Coach G confirmed that she took a phone call from UT to discuss a potential move to Texas and to set up a follow-on meeting the night/day before the rutgers game...believe if you simply search far enough back in DBR you'll find all the background you need.

[Kfanarmy]

I'm not sure that's entirely fair to G. She was in what she thought was a bad situation at duke. Texas gave her the money and duke did not. I'm not sure either party is at fault here. Duke didn't want to pay that kind of money to a program which wasn't generating a whole lot of profit (I think they draw a loss...not sure), so they were justified not ponying up from a financial standpoint. You can't blame a coach for leaving when another program is willing to offer more money, especially when you are in a situation where you don't necessarily see eye to eye with the AD...

Most of what is in this para is inaccurate, the exception, perhaps, being her relationship to the AD. When Coach G began her "move" to UT, Duke was in the middle of a NCAA Championship run...Texas made her an offer, which as I recall, Duke matched. All that aside, I don't fault anyone from moving jobs...change is life blood for many people. However, I will never accept that even taking a phone call from UT AD while your team is prepping for an NCAAT game in a season where you are anticipating a run to the final four is anything other than unacceptable and self centered.

[msdukie]

This line is becoming very tiresome, and not without it's own "Duh!" factor. Of course she was brought in to win championships! How strange would it be to strive for anything less? Just because the dearly departed Joe Alleva said something does not make McCallie a failure for not winning a national title in her short time at Duke. I have a hard time believing that you've said this several times in your non-support of Coach P. Give it a rest, dude. Make whatever argument you want, but this one you oughtta leave alone. If you're saying she won't ever win one, spit it out. If not, then the jury is not even deliberating yet, the evidence is STILL BEING PRESENTED!

You are misreading my point. I was pointing out the irrelevance of this entire comparison of Foster v. K to G v. P, and the lack of parity in women's basketball is a key part of this. I also pointed out the standard under which she was to be held when hired. I never said that she wouldn't ultimately succeed or win a national title. But that is why she was brought here and I hope she will eventually get there. G did not succeed in this final goal either, though she was hired in 1992 with a different level of expectations, however, she changed them.

Do you think David Cutcliffe was hired with the expectation of winning a national title or competing for one every season? No, he was hired to bring us a winning program that we could be proud of that could compete in the upper level of the ACC and go bowling on a semi-regular basis. Different programs have different expectations.

[Mike Corey]

Most of what is in this para is inaccurate, the exception, perhaps, being her relationship to the AD. When Coach G began her "move" to UT, Duke was in the middle of a NCAA Championship run...Texas made her an offer, which as I recall, Duke matched. All that aside, I don't fault anyone from moving jobs...change is life blood for many people. However, I will never accept that even taking a phone call from UT AD while your team is prepping for an NCAAT game in a season where you are anticipating a run to the final four is anything other than unacceptable and self centered.

This is not a fair characterization, at all, of what happened with Coach G.

The only thing in here that is accurately represented is that Duke eventually matched Texas' offer.

[-jk]

I think it's time to retire this thread.

It's apparent there are issues with G's situation we'll never know, and that still rankles some people.

We're just spinning wheels.

-jk