How lucky did we get with Coach P?

[CameronBornAndBred]

Ok..here's a question I was just pondering while writing about Coach McCallie's latest recognition. When Coach G left to "greener" pastures at Texas, how lucky did Duke get by replacing her with Coach P? I was never a big Alleva fan, in fact I blamed a lot of G leaving on him. But he also made the hire to replace her, which in the long run is looking insanely good. The funny thing is, looking back...P was choice number three. Both Katie Meier and Joanne Boyle were asked first. (They are both doing fairly well too.) So it wasn't so bad going outside of the Duke family.
How many schools have been so fortunate to replace a coach that maintained the quality of a program that G had with one that has continued to do so like P has? She obviously has had her detractors, especially after the first two years, but since she got here she has done nothing but keep Duke consistantly in the upper echelon of women's basketball. You can't say the same about Coach Goestenkoers even...she has her team fighting to stay out of the NIT...and will probably be fighting for her job in the very near future if she doesn't improve.
When Coach K finally packs his bags, we can only hope that we are so fortunate with his replacement as we've been with Coach McCallie.

[Kedsy]

Ok..here's a question I was just pondering while writing about Coach McCallie's latest recognition. When Coach G left to "greener" pastures at Texas, how lucky did Duke get by replacing her with Coach P?

Well said. Coach P took a lot of flak from her own fan base during her early years here, but her detractors sort of look silly, now, don't they?

[killerleft]

CB&B says:

"When Coach K finally packs his bags, we can only hope that we are so fortunate with his replacement as we've been with Coach McCallie."

That more or less says it all. I don't think that Coach McCallie was the ONLY coach who could have led Duke to where we are now, but Alleva certainly made a fine choice. We can, as you say, only hope that Duke does as well when the time comes to find a successor to Coach Mike Krzyzewski.

[throatybeard]

How lucky did we get with Coach P?

Extremely.

Further, something that has surprised me is how mediocre Goestenkors has been (by her Duke standards) at Texas. In her first four seasons at UT, they were just .500 in the league; at 7-10, she's now under .500. Overall, she's 101-62 (.620); she was an astounding .800 at Duke.

[Indoor66]

Extremely.

Further, something that has surprised me is how mediocre Goestenkors has been (by her Duke standards) at Texas. In her first four seasons at UT, they were just .500 in the league; at 7-10, she's now under .500. Overall, she's 101-62 (.620); she was an astounding .800 at Duke.

Maybe those stats say more about Duke than Coach G.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Maybe those stats say more about Duke than Coach G.

Duke is largely where it is now because of G. I've followed some of the Longhorn forums the last couple seasons and it seems that G's biggest problem is ironically recruiting. She did an amazing job here, but she didn't retain any of the Texas folks when she moved and basically has had a hard time getting the local girls to buy into what she can offer. She can coach with the best of them, but if you don't have the talent, especially in a conference as tough as the Big 12, you are doomed.

[loran16]

Let's win a title first before we go this far. I think the Coach G think shows that there is a large benefit to recruiting simply from the name DUKE, even in women's bball (and yes, Coach G may very well have built that name brand recognition). But Duke under Coach P has yet to actually be THE team to beat, nevertheless won the big one in the NCAA Tournament (or even got to the F4).

I understand this is a really high bar, especially for women's bball, where UConn has been so dominant. But Coach G had us as the dominant team in her last year when we sadly lost to Rutgers and came within a gorram Shea Doron 3 pointer of winning the big one in 05-06 (and having reached the F4 numerous times before that).

Long story short - We're still DUKE; no matter who we hire to be the Women's coach, she SHOULD have a certain level of success simply by trading upon our own goodwill (and facilities and history etc.). Coach P hasn't yet gotten over the hump yet where I'm willing to consider her hire a "Success," as I'm not sure her results so far speak for anything other than what the usual above average women's coach would do with Duke's resources.

EDIT: First sentence should probably lead, let's get back to the F4 first.

[uh_no]

Let's win a title first before we go this far. I think the Coach G think shows that there is a large benefit to recruiting simply from the name DUKE, even in women's bball (and yes, Coach G may very well have built that name brand recognition). But Duke under Coach P has yet to actually be THE team to beat, nevertheless won the big one in the NCAA Tournament (or even got to the F4).

I understand this is a really high bar, especially for women's bball, where UConn has been so dominant. But Coach G had us as the dominant team in her last year when we sadly lost to Rutgers and came within a gorram Shea Doron 3 pointer of winning the big one in 05-06 (and having reached the F4 numerous times before that).

Long story short - We're still DUKE; no matter who we hire to be the Women's coach, she SHOULD have a certain level of success simply by trading upon our own goodwill (and facilities and history etc.). Coach P hasn't yet gotten over the hump yet where I'm willing to consider her hire a "Success," as I'm not sure her results so far speak for anything other than what the usual above average women's coach would do with Duke's resources.

EDIT: First sentence should probably lead, let's get back to the F4 first.

I think much like you. I've been very critical of Coach P, especially her game planning and offensive schemes. I have been MUCH more impressed this season with what she's done than I have in past years, and I will be most fair in delaying further judgement until I see what she does with a team that is loaded with talent.

Aside from that, she has kept the program at a very very high level, there is no doubt about that, but women's basketball coaches (much more so than mens) seem to be divided fairly sharply into two divisions: those that have won the title and those that haven't. In that group you have:
Pat Summit (tenn)
Geno Auriemma (Uconn)
Tara VanDerveer (Stanford)
Muffet McGraw (ND)
Kim Mulkey (Baylor)

If you asked for the best women's coaches out there, this is a pretty encompassing list. It becomes even more so when you take coaches that have gotten to the final 4 (G, Ceeeeee vivian stringer) Is it a perfect division? Likely not, but its a pretty darn good who's who.

Are we lucky to have Coach P? Probably. Are there at least half a dozen other coaches I'd rather have right now? Probably.

I think she grows each year, and I think its an exciting time for her to have the talent she does. It'll be interesting to see.

But to put things in perspective, lets look at the duke women in games against what I would consider to be elite teams each year (yeah pretty subjective and unlikely to be wholly objective, but i'll try...might be better to do record against teams who went to the final four that year...but thats too much work...and i think that's what this comes to anyway)
2011-2012: losses to uconn and ND
2010-2011: 2 losses to uconn win over texas AM (elite 8)
2009-2010: losses to baylor uconn and stanford (elite 8)
2008-2009: win over stanford (second round)

that puts us at 2-7 and several of them have not been close. Now, perhaps I'm being unfair, but since P has been here, as you said, duke has never been "the team to beat."

As I said, these next years should be very exciting for duke womens basketball fans, and the team is super talented and young. Duke has a chance to be one of those elite teams. I think the kids on the team are great...especially Elizabeth (my love for pride and prejudice wants me to call her "lizzy" but that might be a bit to familiar...) and chelsea. Phenomenal players. The onus is on Coach P to put them in a system where they can win against the other elite teams in the country.

[Kedsy]

If you asked for the best women's coaches out there, this is a pretty encompassing list. It becomes even more so when you take coaches that have gotten to the final 4 (G, Ceeeeee vivian stringer) Is it a perfect division? Likely not, but its a pretty darn good who's who.

Except Coach P is on the list of coaches who have gotten to the Final Four. She just hasn't done it with Duke yet. But the fact she's on that list weakens your point, IMO.

[uh_no]

Except Coach P is on the list of coaches who have gotten to the Final Four. She just hasn't done it with Duke yet. But the fact she's on that list weakens your point, IMO.

Did not realize that. thanks for correcting me. I think the overall point still stands though, that she needs to take this horde of talent she's amassing and become one of THE teams...they're knocking on the door...that's for sure...but have to get over the hump.

[77devil]

And to think, Coach P was not Alleva's first choice.

This alone raises her stock a few points. I wonder if Coach G looks back forlornly at what might have been with Kevin White in charge? Possibly not; Austin's a great spot.

Except Coach P is on the list of coaches who have gotten to the Final Four. She just hasn't done it with Duke yet. But the fact she's on that list weakens your point, IMO.

So did Paul Hewitt. Just goes to show what some luck and recruiting success can produce for one season. Not much of a marker in my opinion. If the bar is likely hood of winning a NC, I think Coach P comes up short based on her body of work

[DukeBlueNikeShox]

Geno applied for the Duke job; however, Duke chose Goestenkors. The advantage that Coach P had over other applicants was that she has a "traditional family"...

[miramar]

1) There was some criticism of Coach G at the beginning of this post because of her results at Texas, which is certainly fair as far as it goes. Nevertheless, she was a perfect fit at Duke and left the program in great shape, so I would prefer to be grateful rather than critical in her case. If she knew then what she knows now...

2) John Wooden wasn't UCLA's first choice IIRC, and they certainly weren't his first choice either (he wanted to go to Minnesota, but the phone lines were down because of a storm and they didn't make an offer in time). So I wouldn't worry about who's on first, as it were.

3) Lest we forget, when Duke hired Coach P, the general idea was that she should at least maintain Duke as one of the top three or four women's programs in the country (or maybe the best program that never won a championship). Many thought that if she could get to the Final Four with Michigan State's talent, she should be able to do that and more at Duke. That hasn't happened, especially because of poor shooting and too many turnovers in big games, although this year things have improved dramatically (at least until the 22 turnovers in each of the last two games).

I don't think that we expected that we would be waiting for a return to the Final Four five years later, so I would say that the record is mixed but improving. Unless Duke WBB does return to the Final Four, I would say that we will continue to have these conversations.

[OZ]

I don't think that we expected that we would be waiting for a return to the Final Four five years later, so I would say that the record is mixed but improving. Unless Duke WBB does return to the Final Four, I would say that we will continue to have these conversations.

Well, "these conversations" were certainly had concerning two other questionable coaches... Coach K being one of them.
When I entered Duke, one of the things in which we took a lot of pleasure was that over in Chapel Hill they had burned their basketball coach in effigy; someone by the name of Dean Smith.

If we have these conversations about Coach P, at least she will be in good company.

[uh_no]

Geno applied for the Duke job; however, Duke chose Goestenkors. The advantage that Coach P had over other applicants was that she has a "traditional family"...

fun tidbit: not that this will ever happen, but geno has said the duke men's coaching job is one of the only positions for which he would leave the uconn women.

[Kedsy]

Shall we revisit this topic based on today's events? Losing to a 9 seed who played yesterday in a sport that lacks parity? This was beyond inexcusable. First time a 9 beats a 1. First time Duke doesn't win an ACC Tourney game after 17 straight years.

In my opinion, "today's events" (whatever today that happens to be) should almost never be a valid basis for a condemnation of a coach's work. The idea that one post-season loss should overshadow a spectacular regular season is ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is the idea that a coach who hasn't gotten her team to the Final Four during her first four seasons is therefore not doing a good job.

Think about it: P's first five years have looked a heck of a lot better than K's first five years.

[duke09hms]

In my opinion, "today's events" (whatever today that happens to be) should almost never be a valid basis for a condemnation of a coach's work. The idea that one post-season loss should overshadow a spectacular regular season is ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is the idea that a coach who hasn't gotten her team to the Final Four during her first four seasons is therefore not doing a good job.

Think about it: P's first five years have looked a heck of a lot better than K's first five years.

K wasn't immediately succeeding a great coach who had built Duke to the verge of elite status and taking us to Final Fours/#1 rankings, and K wasn't brought in explicitly to win titles.

McCallie was. She's done a great job here at Duke, but when you look at what she was brought here to do, the jury is still out. Duke under McCallie SO FAR has not yet reached the levels we did under Goestenkors. If we don't win a title before this year's extremely talented nucleus graduates or at the very least get to a Final Four, there may be serious talks in a couple years as to whether we downgraded in head coaches.

[Kedsy]

K wasn't immediately succeeding a great coach who had built Duke to the verge of elite status and taking us to Final Fours/#1 rankings, and K wasn't brought in explicitly to win titles.

Actually, he kind of was. K succeeded a very popular coach who in the previous three seasons had been to a Final Four and an Elite Eight, and had been ranked #1 in the country at some point during each of the two seasons prior to K's arrival. And I'd argue Bill Foster was perceived to have brought Duke "to the verge of elite status," in addition to a Final Four and the #1 rankings.

Going into K's first year, Duke had lost its starting PG and C, but we returned a big star in Gene Banks along with a pretty solid supporting cast. Coach K made the NIT that first season. Going into P's first year, Duke had also lost its starting PG and C (and two best players, which was not true in K's case). Coach P made the NCAA tourney and got to the Sweet 16.

I think there are more parallels between K's beginning and P's beginning than you're admitting, except P performed better than K in her first five years. After that, obviously we don't know yet. K made the Final Four his 6th season and then 6 of the next 8 years, including two national championships. I'd be shocked if P has similar success (although I wouldn't be surprised at all to see P make the Final Four in her 6th season at Duke, same as K), but I don't think she has to have that kind of success to be considered a great hire and great fit for Duke.

[77devil]

Actually, he kind of was. K succeeded a very popular coach who in the previous three seasons had been to a Final Four and an Elite Eight, and had been ranked #1 in the country at some point during each of the two seasons prior to K's arrival. And I'd argue Bill Foster was perceived to have brought Duke "to the verge of elite status," in addition to a Final Four and the #1 rankings.

Going into K's first year, Duke had lost its starting PG and C, but we returned a big star in Gene Banks along with a pretty solid supporting cast. Coach K made the NIT that first season. Going into P's first year, Duke had also lost its starting PG and C (and two best players, which was not true in K's case). Coach P made the NCAA tourney and got to the Sweet 16.

I think there are more parallels between K's beginning and P's beginning than you're admitting, except P performed better than K in her first five years. After that, obviously we don't know yet. K made the Final Four his 6th season and then 6 of the next 8 years, including two national championships. I'd be shocked if P has similar success (although I wouldn't be surprised at all to see P make the Final Four in her 6th season at Duke, same as K), but I don't think she has to have that kind of success to be considered a great hire and great fit for Duke.

Duke was hardly on the verge of elite status. In fact, K inherited a program that was merely competitive at 7-7 in the ACC in Foster's last season with a team that started 4 of the top 6 players from the NC runner ups plus elite recruit Vince Taylor. See, Foster was always better at building a program than sustaining it. We owe him an enormous debt of gratitude for bringing the program back from the depths, but he knew the cupboard was bare when SC called.

Besides Dennard and Taylor, who is this solid supporting cast you refer to? The talent restocking required and competitive environment that Coach K stepped into was much more difficult than Coach P.

[OZ]

"duke09hms;556379]K wasn't immediately succeeding a great coach who had built Duke to the verge of elite status and taking us to Final Fours"

That may be debatable.
In 1974 Duke brought in Bill Foster to give life to a lifeless program. In six years, he took Duke to the NCAA tournament three straight years. In one of those trips, we lost to Kentucky in the finals (I was there!)

If it is legal here, I would like to offer a quote from Johnny Moore while commenting on Coach K's 903 win.

“Not without what Bill built. And Mike has talked to Bill about that. Without showing people that they could win, that we could be good, that we could be in a Final Four — when (Krzyzewski) recruited that famous (Johnny) Dawkins class, it was only five years removed from us going to the Final Four. Kids had seen that you could be successful at Duke.”