MBB: Duke vs UNC - Pre-Game & In-Game Thread

[J_C_Steel]

3. Pressure Marshall

Gotta disagree here. Pressuring Marshall in the second half is what got the Blue Devils in trouble last month. Marshall simply beat his man off the dribble and found an open man when the defense collapsed to him.

In my view, Duke's better off playing a bit off of Marshall and daring him to shoot, taking away his drive and making him settle for passing the ball around the perimeter or attempting an entry pass to the post.

[COYS]

Gotta disagree here. Pressuring Marshall in the second half is what got the Blue Devils in trouble last month. Marshall simply beat his man off the dribble and found an open man when the defense collapsed to him.

In my view, Duke's better off playing a bit off of Marshall and daring him to shoot, taking away his drive and making him settle for passing the ball around the perimeter or attempting an entry pass to the post.

Nolan was able to pressure Marshall effectively last season because he was a much better on ball defender than anyone on the current roster AND he had the size and length to take away the advantage that Marshall's 6'4'' frame gives him. In the last game, even when we played good defense on him, he was often able to throw passes over our six foot guards. I think we're unlikely to see it, but I would be very curious to see what putting Austin on Marshall would look like. Austin is world's quicker than Marshall and has the size to negate Marshall's height advantage over our other guards. Meanwhile, Tyler is a killer off-ball/help defender. P.J. Hairston would have a big size advantage over Tyler, but Tyler would probably make up for it by making it hard for Hairston to receive a pass. Zeller is a great player, but he's only effective when Marshall is able to get him the ball. I'd be for anything that would be able to slow Marshall's passing down.

[Kedsy]

Nolan was able to pressure Marshall effectively last season because he was a much better on ball defender than anyone on the current roster AND he had the size and length to take away the advantage that Marshall's 6'4'' frame gives him. In the last game, even when we played good defense on him, he was often able to throw passes over our six foot guards. I think we're unlikely to see it, but I would be very curious to see what putting Austin on Marshall would look like. Austin is world's quicker than Marshall and has the size to negate Marshall's height advantage over our other guards. Meanwhile, Tyler is a killer off-ball/help defender. P.J. Hairston would have a big size advantage over Tyler, but Tyler would probably make up for it by making it hard for Hairston to receive a pass. Zeller is a great player, but he's only effective when Marshall is able to get him the ball. I'd be for anything that would be able to slow Marshall's passing down.

I agree with this. I have suspected for some time that Austin on the opposing PG would give us our best defensive configuration. One slight quibble, though, isn't Bullock the more likely starter at the 2? He has an even bigger size advantage over Tyler, Seth, or Quinn. And that's before we even get to who guards Barnes.

On the one hand, the huge size advantage UNC has at the SG and SF spots argues that Austin should guard one of those positions. On the other hand, both Bullock and Barnes have a size advantage over Austin as well. And neither of them is particularly skilled at creating for himself. If Austin can shut down Marshall, it might be worth the risk.

[moonpie23]

according to the folks over on IC, we should just forfeit.....they are going to "THROTTLE" us....

[Jderf]

I agree with this. I have suspected for some time that Austin on the opposing PG would give us our best defensive configuration. One slight quibble, though, isn't Bullock the more likely starter at the 2? He has an even bigger size advantage over Tyler, Seth, or Quinn. And that's before we even get to who guards Barnes.

On the one hand, the huge size advantage UNC has at the SG and SF spots argues that Austin should guard one of those positions. On the other hand, both Bullock and Barnes have a size advantage over Austin as well. And neither of them is particularly skilled at creating for himself. If Austin can shut down Marshall, it might be worth the risk.

What about -- and I'm just thinking out loud here -- sticking Austin on Marshall while putting Josh on Barnes? Then Andre could guard Bullock without giving too huge of a size advantage. On offense, I think we have enough firepower that we could afford to have another screener/rebounder out there.

Of course, we'd probably want Seth on the court a lot, too, which would force Austin and Dre to slide over on defense. And I'm not even sure Josh could contain Barnes in the first place. But still, although I'm not convinced myself, it would at least be an interesting approach. What do you guys think?

[COYS]

I agree with this. I have suspected for some time that Austin on the opposing PG would give us our best defensive configuration. One slight quibble, though, isn't Bullock the more likely starter at the 2? He has an even bigger size advantage over Tyler, Seth, or Quinn. And that's before we even get to who guards Barnes.

On the one hand, the huge size advantage UNC has at the SG and SF spots argues that Austin should guard one of those positions. On the other hand, both Bullock and Barnes have a size advantage over Austin as well. And neither of them is particularly skilled at creating for himself. If Austin can shut down Marshall, it might be worth the risk.

That was a boneheaded mistake on my part. I did mean Bullock. While Bullock is bigger than Hairston, he's less mobile. I actually think Tyler, with his strength, would have a an easier time denying the ball to the less mobile Bullock than the more agile Hairston.

Yeah, I feel like the Heels are a team that will ALWAYS have a size advantage no matter who we play, as long as our lineups make some sense (An Austin, Josh, Ryan, Miles, Mason lineup would be taller, but would also be totally silly). Mason and Miles are shorter than Zeller and have a major length disadvantage against Henson. Even Mike G is shorter than Barnes. Our tallest guard is 6'4''. Their shortest guard who plays significant minutes is 6'4''. Considering that shooting guard is already the weakest spot for the Heels, I don't see that we have much to lose by making that matchup our biggest size disadvantage with the goal of neutralizing many of their advantages in the post by keeping Marshall out of the game.

However, there are some other things to consider, too. Austin will be needed to create much of our offense. We need him fresh and aggressive. Pressuring the ball, especially since he's not used to it, could cause him to fatigue faster which may lead to some extra fouls. Also, Austin's quickness was an asset against Barnes when they were matched up last time. Barnes got going when the transition game started moving for them. However, Austin did a great job on him in the first half. Keeping Marshall bottled up is important, but making Barnes no more than a volume jump shooter is also important and Austin was excellent at that in the first half of the first meeting.

[left_hook_lacey]

Gotta disagree here. Pressuring Marshall in the second half is what got the Blue Devils in trouble last month. Marshall simply beat his man off the dribble and found an open man when the defense collapsed to him.

In my view, Duke's better off playing a bit off of Marshall and daring him to shoot, taking away his drive and making him settle for passing the ball around the perimeter or attempting an entry pass to the post.

I agree with J C Steel. It's no secret that Marshall isn't the fastest PG out there. And if it were as simple as just pressuring him to slow the Heels down I think that gameplan would've been figured out by now as many teams have tried to put pressure on him on both ends of the floor.

Play off Marshall and make him shoot or drive. Either of those results are better than him feeding a Zeller or Henson with position, or kicking to an open Barnes or Bullock.

Also, the key to making this works is that Miles and Mason MUST box out if they can force Marshall into a shot or drive. Not to say they(Miles and Mason) don't rebound well now, but if we can force Marshall into shots he doesn't necessarily want to take, then Offensive boards are UNC's only hope IMO. I'll admit Marshall has been know to get hot when he is forced to take shots, but I'll take that chance vs. the alternatives mentioned above. Not to mention, one hot Marshall cannot outscore a hot Dawkins, Curry, or Rivers.

I say we step on their throats early as they do not seem to handle pressure situations well. Add in the fact that we're at Cameron and I think we have a recipe for another big W and tremendous confindence and momentum going into the ACC tournament, hopfully playing us right into a 1-seed for the NCAA tourney. Thinking waaaay ahead, I know, but I can't help it. Is it Saturday yet?

[Bob Green]

...but I would be very curious to see what putting Austin on Marshall would look like. Austin is world's quicker than Marshall and has the size to negate Marshall's height advantage over our other guards. Meanwhile, Tyler is a killer off-ball/help defender.

I agree with this. I have suspected for some time that Austin on the opposing PG would give us our best defensive configuration. One slight quibble, though, isn't Bullock the more likely starter at the 2? He has an even bigger size advantage over Tyler, Seth, or Quinn. And that's before we even get to who guards Barnes.

I like the idea of sticking Rivers on Marshall to shutdown Carolina's offense. The equivalent analogy is slaying a beast by cutting off its head. Marshall is the brains and motor that makes the team run.

If we pressure Marshall and rotate Dawkins/Curry/Thornton on Barnes and Bullock the result could be a Carolina offense that is knocked completely out-of-sync.

[roywhite]

I like the idea of sticking Rivers on Marshall to shutdown Carolina's offense. The equivalent analogy is slaying a beast by cutting off its head. Marshall is the brains and motor that makes the team run.

If we pressure Marshall and rotate Dawkins/Curry/Thornton on Barnes and Bullock the result could be a Carolina offense that is knocked completely out-of-sync.

I see there are opinions on both sides about how to defend Marshall.

The most effective defense we have played against Marshall was in the ACC Tournament finals last year; Nolan Smith covered Marshall and basically forced him to start far away from the basket and contested him whenever possible. UNC had a hard time running their normal offense. So IMO that's the best way to defend Marshall, with a big IF....do we have a player who can do what Nolan did last year?

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Just throwing this out there... our half court trap hasn't come out to play lately. Given all the above discussion about cutting off the beast's head, this is another tactic that has not been discussed. I don't hate our chances with it as long as we don't become too predictable.

[ChicagoHeel]

I see there are opinions on both sides about how to defend Marshall.

The most effective defense we have played against Marshall was in the ACC Tournament finals last year; Nolan Smith covered Marshall and basically forced him to start far away from the basket and contested him whenever possible. UNC had a hard time running their normal offense. So IMO that's the best way to defend Marshall, with a big IF....do we have a player who can do what Nolan did last year?

I agree that this is one of the best ways to slow us down. I'm just not sure you have the personnel to pick-up Marshall that early and really pressure him. How good an on-the-ball defender is Rivers? Yes, he has quickness, but Marshall doesn't beat you with speed as much as misdirection, timing and vision. Nolan last year was effective, but that was a senior, gifted defender against a freshman.

The other option is the NCSU plan. Play off Marshall and collapse on the interior with double teams. Dare us to beat you from the outside. It didn't work for NCSU, but you never know what to expect in terms of our perimeter shooting.

The best defense against us is always a good offense. We can run even when we pull the ball out of the basket, but we're still a lot less effective.

[Kedsy]

Just throwing this out there... our half court trap hasn't come out to play lately. Given all the above discussion about cutting off the beast's head, this is another tactic that has not been discussed. I don't hate our chances with it as long as we don't become too predictable.

I suspect Marshall may have too much savvy for this to work particularly well, but I suppose you never know.

[Dukehky]

I thought that TT did a really good job on Barnes last time. He's a better off ball defender than on, and I think that putting Austin on Bullock and allowing him to save his legs a little for offense is a good idea, and I think that Seth on Marshall is a good call as well. Seth, if you remember correctly, was the one guarding Marshall at the beginning of the game last time and was doing a good job, but got pulled because of his foul trouble. Really any way you shake a stick at it, we're in a little trouble defensively just because of the size factor, but I think that wasting our little bit of size by putting Rivers on Marshall is a bad idea, not to mention I don't want AR to have to think much on defense, which is why I'd like him sticking to Bullock as much as possible.

I really wish people would stop suggesting that Josh be put on Harrison. Unless you hope that Josh catches him with a really hard foul to shake him up, this is a no win scenario. With him on the court, there is no offense, and Josh has no chance of guarding Harrison Barnes even a little bit. Josh can bang down low with maybe McAdoo. Josh plays hard and I appreciate it, but when there's as much difference in talent and athleticism as there is between he and the UNC front court, it's better to keep his responsibilities low.

[FellowTraveler]

4. Foul trouble (Carolina is uber talented but they are not deep)

Carolina may not be deep, but I fear Duke is more likely to experience disruptive foul trouble. Carolina's size, athleticism, and style of play seem likely to draw more fouls from Duke defenders than Duke's outside shooting draws on UNC defenders. And in general, Marshall, Bullock, Henson and Barnes basically don't commit fouls -- all four commit 2.4 or fewer fouls per 40 minutes; Austin is Duke's only player below 2.9 fouls per 40, and even he commits more fouls than any of those four Tar Heels.

As for defensive matchups ... I think it's worth trying to put Austin on Marshall, with Dawkins on Barnes and Curry on Bullock. Curry and Dawkins will each be at a significant size disadvantage, but Duke's going to face a size deficit at the 2 and 3 regardless. Meanwhile:

1) If Austin's size and athleticism can cause problems for Marshall, that would have obvious benefits.

2) Bullock should be able to shoot over Curry ... but from what (relatively little) I've seen, he isn't a tremendous ball-handler (and 63 percent of his shots are from outside the arc, lending some support for this observation.) Seth's quick hands and sneakiness could give Bullock some trouble -- he won't be in a able to contest shots at the release point, but he might be able to strip, or at least disrupt, Bullock before he gets that far.

3) Regardless of who guards him, Barnes is going to have at least one spurt where he hits several shots in a relatively short period of time. When he gets in a groove, there's nobody on Duke who can stop him from scoring -- and I don't think there's anyone on the team who can hold him groove-less for 35 minutes. The key is to keep his points in the 15-25 range, not the 25-40 range. (Also to try not to burn fouls on him -- Zeller's going to draw enough; no need to help Carolina get into the bonus quicker.) From what (again, relatively little) I've seen of Barnes, I think Dawkins can do a reasonable job of staying with him off the ball, keeping him from getting super comfortable, wide open jumpers. And I think that's the most important thing a defender can do with Barnes. Finally: Dawkins sometimes seems to thrive when he has a bit of a chip on his shoulder, and guarding Barnes could be useful in that regard.

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

I thought that TT did a really good job on Barnes last time.

He definitely got under his skin. Harry resembled a frustrated camper swatting at a swarm of mosquitoes at times.

I don't know Harry's personality, but I'm pretty sure K has a good idea. If you can get Harry off his game by annoying him, I think we will see a lot of TT on him. If Harry plays better when he is pouting, then we will see Rivers and Dawkins on him.

[roywhite]

He definitely got under his skin. Harry resembled a frustrated camper swatting at a swarm of mosquitoes at times.

I don't know Harry's personality, but I'm pretty sure K has a good idea. If you can get Harry off his game by annoying him, I think we will see a lot of TT on him. If Harry plays better when he is pouting, then we will see Rivers and Dawkins on him.

We've seen a few reports here that Tyler is a pretty effective trash talker!

Wouldn't have guessed that about TT necessarily, but I like the idea of him rattling the Black Falcon's bird cage.

[Scorp4me]

I think Austin or Curry on Marshall is pretty good. And as someone else mentioned Thornton was surprisingly good covering Barnes. I think because he prevented him from getting the ball in any good positions. I'd be concerned putting Dre on him, size or no size. Dre's punch is his shooting...and it's a heck of a punch.

We don't need a miracle here, this is a good team. And Miles seems to have hit his stride as well. If Mason is on, Dre gets hot, Miles has a monster senior night, there's a ton of things that could put this game out of reach. Realistically though I'm expecting a close game and won't be all that surprised in either outcome.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I see there are opinions on both sides about how to defend Marshall.

The most effective defense we have played against Marshall was in the ACC Tournament finals last year; Nolan Smith covered Marshall and basically forced him to start far away from the basket and contested him whenever possible. UNC had a hard time running their normal offense. So IMO that's the best way to defend Marshall, with a big IF....do we have a player who can do what Nolan did last year?

I expect Duke to try and pressure Marshall, as many are suggesting, that's why I think he will need to finish at the rim. He's gonna be able to take guys and drive.

I don't think there is a defender on Duke's team that can do the job like Nolan did that one game. Marshall is deceptively quick with the ball and can get to the rack against this Duke team. He's generally smart with the ball too, but he needs to finish better.

The other option for Marshall is to hit the open jumper. Somebody, anybody hit a jumper...UNC needs balance so that teams can't double down. The post play is so good that they've been winning from the inside anyway, but its been ugly.

If UNC can hit the open kick out jumpshot, and they'll get it, then I don't think Duke can defend this team. Duke will just have to try and outscore them by shooting lights out, which they have proved is possible, or have a great rebounding night with lots of putbacks.

I hope UNC extends their range on D this game. I'll take my chances defending your post play. I'd tell my players you don't defend face up from behind the 3pt line, you stay in front of it. No shot is too deep for Duke wings at home. Force Duke to finish inside against Henson, Zeller and McAdoo.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I suspect Marshall may have too much savvy for this to work particularly well, but I suppose you never know.

He's no dummy. But didn't we actually do it a couple times in the first game. I thought I recalled at least one turnover near half court as a result. Not saying it's something we can do for 40 minutes. But selectively, I don't know... I kinda like it.

[jv001]

I expect Duke to try and pressure Marshall, as many are suggesting, that's why I think he will need to finish at the rim. He's gonna be able to take guys and drive.

I don't think there is a defender on Duke's team that can do the job like Nolan did that one game. Marshall is deceptively quick with the ball and can get to the rack against this Duke team. He's generally smart with the ball too, but he needs to finish better.

The other option for Marshall is to hit the open jumper. Somebody, anybody hit a jumper...UNC needs balance so that teams can't double down. The post play is so good that they've been winning from the inside anyway, but its been ugly.

If UNC can hit the open kick out jumpshot, and they'll get it, then I don't think Duke can defend this team. Duke will just have to try and outscore them by shooting lights out, which they have proved is possible, or have a great rebounding night with lots of putbacks.

I hope UNC extends their range on D this game. I'll take my chances defending your post play. I'd tell my players you don't defendood face up from behind the 3pt line, you stay in front of it. No shot is too deep for Duke wings at home. Force Duke to finish inside against Henson, Zeller and McAdoo.

Some good points wheat. As for marshall, I think we should make it a concentrated effort to make him play defense. If he get's into early foul trouble, you could be in for a long night. In the last game, marshall ended up defending one of our bigs down low on switches. But the big never received the ball. I would get it down low even though your front line is good at help defense(henson). I agree we don't have anyone of Nolan's talent of defending on the ball. GoDuke!