MBB: Duke 79, Wake Forest 71 Post-Game Thread

[MCFinARL]

Ok. So he did 2 of the 3. Shame on me for being wrong

He did or didn't do enough that Coach K didn't feel he deserved the playing time over guys who were doing more with their time.

Sorry. I'm tired and you seemed to me to take such pleasure in being snarky in your reply to my original post that I decided to be snarky back--not really necessary on my part. Clearly Coach K didn't feel he deserved the time--I was more trying to get a picture of why, as I saw other players make mistakes or look very sloppy and not get pulled. But as you point out, perhaps Andre's mistakes came in clusters.

[Verga3]

I think Coach K has decided Andre is either on or off. He's either into the game, playing hard and making shots or his not crisp and mistake prone. You can usually tell if he's got it or not and his minutes are earned accordingly.

Could very well be. Coach K is the chessmaster when it comes to season-long strategic planning for his guys.

We likely have no true idea of the permutations and dynamics of player decisions. I trust Coach K to make the right decisions with his team. Andre can certainly improve his intensity on D at times, but at the end of the day, he is the chessmaster's Knight. Every move is for 3.

[Chris Randolph]

After lighting up FSU in the first half, Dawkins got very little playing time down the stretch in the second half, then got a total of 21 minutes of playing time in the next two games. I don't know whether Dawkins thinks the coaches have no confidence in him, but if he does, I can see why.

No, Dawkins didn't look particularly good today. (He wasn't alone in that -- Thornton, for example, was on court for much of the second-half meltdown, one highlight of which was Tyler dribbling the ball off his own foot, out of bounds, to help prolong Wake's run. He remained on the court.) Dawkins did have some poor defensive play -- and he also played very good defense on at least a couple of possessions, one of which unfortunately ended with his man hitting a very tough contested fallaway jumper as the shot clock ran down. And no, he didn't shoot poorly; he made 1 of 3 three-pointers, which is the number you'd expect him to make given three attempts.

Most of all, though, he just didn't play enough to assess his performance. I reject the idea -- popular among announcers, fans, and, I suspect, Duke coaches -- that you can tell in his first 180 seconds of court time whether Dawkins is going to play well or poorly going forward. Players are not robots. They do not perform perfectly consistently. A few minutes do not tell us with any real certainty how they are likely to perform over the next 25 -- particularly if they are not primary ball-handlers and thus have relatively little control over what happens in those few minutes.

I know, I know: With Andre, it's different. You can just tell whether he showed up that day based on his first couple of minutes. Like against Michigan State. Ah, but in the first 2.5 minutes of the Michigan State game, Dawkins missed a three and a layup. Two minutes later, he turned the ball over. Eight minutes into the game, he was 2-5 shooting with a turnover. That's the kind of start that leads a lot of people to conclude "he doesn't have it today; he doesn't deserve PT." He finished with 26 points on 15 shots. Against Clemson, Dawkins missed his first three shots. He just didn't have it that day; better bench him -- except that he then hit 7 of his next 9 shots to finish with 24 points on 12 shots. In the first three minutes of the first Wake game, Dawkins had a turnover and was 0-1 shooting. Ten minutes in, he was 1-3 with a turnover. His head clearly wasn't in the game; better sit him until he becomes more consistent. Oh, wait -- he finished the game with 21 points on 13 shots.

I understand the point of your post. But I'm willing to bet that more goes into the decision of a player's minutes than what we as fans get a glimpse of during a game. We have no idea what is going on outside of what we see twice a week for 4 hours. I trust that Coach K knows what he is doing and what is best for the kid and team

[Chris Randolph]

Sorry. I'm tired and you seemed to me to take such pleasure in being snarky in your reply to my original post that I decided to be snarky back--not really necessary on my part. Clearly Coach K didn't feel he deserved the time--I was more trying to get a picture of why, as I saw other players make mistakes or look very sloppy and not get pulled. But as you point out, perhaps Andre's mistakes came in clusters.

It's cool I wasn't taking any pleasure in my post. Was just stating what Andre did with his minutes in the 2nd half (of which I was wrong about the shots)

[MCFinARL]

After lighting up FSU in the first half, Dawkins got very little playing time down the stretch in the second half, then got a total of 21 minutes of playing time in the next two games. I don't know whether Dawkins thinks the coaches have no confidence in him, but if he does, I can see why.

No, Dawkins didn't look particularly good today. (He wasn't alone in that -- Thornton, for example, was on court for much of the second-half meltdown, one highlight of which was Tyler dribbling the ball off his own foot, out of bounds, to help prolong Wake's run. He remained on the court.) Dawkins did have some poor defensive play -- and he also played very good defense on at least a couple of possessions, one of which unfortunately ended with his man hitting a very tough contested fallaway jumper as the shot clock ran down. And no, he didn't shoot poorly; he made 1 of 3 three-pointers, which is the number you'd expect him to make given three attempts.

Most of all, though, he just didn't play enough to assess his performance. I reject the idea -- popular among announcers, fans, and, I suspect, Duke coaches -- that you can tell in his first 180 seconds of court time whether Dawkins is going to play well or poorly going forward. Players are not robots. They do not perform perfectly consistently. A few minutes do not tell us with any real certainty how they are likely to perform over the next 25 -- particularly if they are not primary ball-handlers and thus have relatively little control over what happens in those few minutes.

I know, I know: With Andre, it's different. You can just tell whether he showed up that day based on his first couple of minutes. Like against Michigan State. Ah, but in the first 2.5 minutes of the Michigan State game, Dawkins missed a three and a layup. Two minutes later, he turned the ball over. Eight minutes into the game, he was 2-5 shooting with a turnover. That's the kind of start that leads a lot of people to conclude "he doesn't have it today; he doesn't deserve PT." He finished with 26 points on 15 shots. Against Clemson, Dawkins missed his first three shots. He just didn't have it that day; better bench him -- except that he then hit 7 of his next 9 shots to finish with 24 points on 12 shots. In the first three minutes of the first Wake game, Dawkins had a turnover and was 0-1 shooting. Ten minutes in, he was 1-3 with a turnover. His head clearly wasn't in the game; better sit him until he becomes more consistent. Oh, wait -- he finished the game with 21 points on 13 shots.

Thanks for this post, which says what I have been thinking more clearly than I have been able to think it, much less say it. I remember the defensive sequence you describe--he was right on his man all the way, disrupted his flow, and then was scored over anyway--bad luck. There is no law that says the universe has to reward Andre Dawkins, or anyone else for that matter, when he plays good defense, but it would have been nice.

I get that Coach K loves Tyler Thornton, and I get that Thornton works hard and is scrappy. But I agree that, unlike in the last game, he didn't look all that great today, especially during the stretch when the lead was shrinking in the second half. And while he has come up with a few clutch shots this season, he just can't contribute on offense like Andre--he had the same field goal stat (1 for 3) in 30 minutes that Andre had in 11. While I know they aren't playing the same position, Tyler does seem to be the person who is picking up the minutes Andre is losing. In the VaTech game, that was probably a good exchange, but today--and going forward--I don't know. As Kedsy has observed in another thread, when Andre is on the court he opens up opportunities for Austin, Seth, etc. in addition to the points he scores himself.

[snowdenscold]

Jipops, would you mind elaborating a bit here? I could not watch the game (don't get ESPNU) but from the box score it looks like Miles and Mason only attempted 7 shots combined. Were some of Mason's attempts discounted because he was fouled in the act of shooting?

Yes, quite a few in fact. I don't have the box score or play-by-play in front of me, but I'd guess he was fouled maybe 5 times shooting, but only converted the layup on 1 of them (the possible 'charge' play).

[gumbomoop]

... Mason got plenty of touches in this one, he looked to be one of the main focal points. But once again he [1] strangely had problems finishing plays. Even when he has the ball underneath with the defender on his hip he takes forever to get the ball up to the rim. Something must be going on with him [1] mentally right now.

It seems Mason has recently inherited this [2] tendency to tense every muscle in his body and rock his weight back on his heels whenever he prepares to go up around the basket, which has seemed to really limit his fluidity and explosiveness recently.

... it takes him forever ... to get the ball up, because he [3] needs to gather himself to fight through the defense... I just don't think he's very strong.

My guess is that he's [4] collecting himself to absorb the contact.

I have posted a number of times on this problem, originally as a sort of joking response on the "Mason needs to shoot more" thread back in December. My little joke was, yes, he needs to shoot instead of waiting to get fouled, so he then has to shoot free throws instead of relatively easy buckets.

IMO, all the tag-quoted posters raise relevant issues, but without identifying what I see as the fundamental problem: when close to the basket, Mason almost always takes a rhythm dribble, which allows 2 defenders time to converge on him, either to foul him, or to discombobulate him in some way. Mason leaves easy points on the floor every game.

Thus [1] his strange mental block has something to do with his felt need, over and over, despite generally poor results, to take that rhythm dribble. It does seem to be some sort of [2] tension-mitigating thing with him, but it's wasteful energy. In [3] gathering and [4] collecting himself, he allows the opponent, usually 2, to gather around him and collect themselves.

I assume Wojo and others have tried to get him to keep the ball up and simply put it in. But he either hasn't learned, or more interestingly, maybe cannot learn how to keep his balance without this wasteful rhythm dribble. I'm convinced the rhythm dribble is a compensation for poor footwork. But it strikes me that in fact the rhythm dribble far more often than not actually adds to his self-confusing footwork, for sometimes rather than getting fouled, or having his shot flicked, he simply walks.

[LSanders]

For what it's worth, here are Coach's comments:

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

"People have graded our performances all year instead of grading our record," Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said. "People want to nitpick -- `You didn't play well for these 4 minutes,' and `You only won by this' and something -- instead of saying, `They've done a good job, man. They've done a great job.'

"To play in a game of that magnitude before the tournaments is huge," he added.

[uh_no]

For what it's worth, here are Coach's comments:

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

"People have graded our performances all year instead of grading our record," Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said. "People want to nitpick -- `You didn't play well for these 4 minutes,' and `You only won by this' and something -- instead of saying, `They've done a good job, man. They've done a great job.'

"To play in a game of that magnitude before the tournaments is huge," he added.

Didn't he himself say a few weeks ago that he didn't care if we won games if we weren't doing it right?

[Kedsy]

Each time he got put in the game in the 2nd half he did one of 3 things (sometimes all 3 during one stint on the court): get beat off the dribble for a layup, miss an open shot, turn it over. He is a shooter so when he misses OPEN looks and doesn't play much defense, he is a liability

He was only put in the game twice in the second half, for a grand total of one minute and 14 seconds. He did turn the ball over each time and was immediately pulled. I agree with those who say he was on a very short leash, and in that situation it's really hard for anybody to perform well.

Didn't he himself say a few weeks ago that he didn't care if we won games if we weren't doing it right?

Yes, he said that when he thought that message would best motivate his team. Now I suppose he thinks the new message will best motivate the team.

[AsiaMinor]

I'm a huge fan of Andre Dawkins and would love to see him on the court, playing his best all of the time. Even more than that, I trust Coach K. And, since we don't know what is said on the bench, or what goes on in practice we cannot accurately judge what is going on. I do hope it gets resolved. We need the best of all of them for Saturday night and beyond.

[Devilsfan]

I think we realized we were playing Wake Forrest last night and stopped playing until K politely reminded us.
Guess everyone started to think about this Saturday night.

[roywhite]

I have posted a number of times on this problem, originally as a sort of joking response on the "Mason needs to shoot more" thread back in December. My little joke was, yes, he needs to shoot instead of waiting to get fouled, so he then has to shoot free throws instead of relatively easy buckets.

IMO, all the tag-quoted posters raise relevant issues, but without identifying what I see as the fundamental problem: when close to the basket, Mason almost always takes a rhythm dribble, which allows 2 defenders time to converge on him, either to foul him, or to discombobulate him in some way. Mason leaves easy points on the floor every game.

Thus [1] his strange mental block has something to do with his felt need, over and over, despite generally poor results, to take that rhythm dribble. It does seem to be some sort of [2] tension-mitigating thing with him, but it's wasteful energy. In [3] gathering and [4] collecting himself, he allows the opponent, usually 2, to gather around him and collect themselves.

I assume Wojo and others have tried to get him to keep the ball up and simply put it in. But he either hasn't learned, or more interestingly, maybe cannot learn how to keep his balance without this wasteful rhythm dribble. I'm convinced the rhythm dribble is a compensation for poor footwork. But it strikes me that in fact the rhythm dribble far more often than not actually adds to his self-confusing footwork, for sometimes rather than getting fouled, or having his shot flicked, he simply walks.

Agree with this observation, and those that contributed to it.

I'm reminded of the great ability that Antawn Jamison (one of my least disliked Tarheels) had around the basket to get shots off quickly; the final product was a layup or very short shot, but he was so good at catching the ball and releasing the shot quickly that he seldom missed or was blocked. If the staff doesn't want to show Mason any Jamison tapes, they could select some Carlos Boozer footage from his Duke days. While some players are much better at this skill of quick and accurate shots near the basket than others, it still seems to be a learned skill that can be greatly improved.

[Starter]

Agree with this observation, and those that contributed to it.

I'm reminded of the great ability that Antawn Jamison (one of my least disliked Tarheels) had around the basket to get shots off quickly; the final product was a layup or very short shot, but he was so good at catching the ball and releasing the shot quickly that he seldom missed or was blocked. If the staff doesn't want to show Mason any Jamison tapes, they could select some Carlos Boozer footage from his Duke days. While some players are much better at this skill of quick and accurate shots near the basket than others, it still seems to be a learned skill that can be greatly improved.

I actually saw Mason as potentially an Amar'e Stoudemire type on the college level, which is to say a potential problem in the pick and roll. Much like Stoudemire this season -- until Linsanity broke out -- I do feel it hurts Mase that he doesn't play with a true pick and roll point guard, which are admittedly hard to come by on the college level. It's just, that would work to his strengths more. I enjoyed watching Mason hit those hook shots early in the season, but it always seemed like he had to work harder than he should have to get position in the post.

By the way, I'm so with you on Jamison. I met him a couple times at the mall down there, what a class act, and I loved his game. Mason could certainly do a lot worse than emulating that quick catch and turnaround for the baby hook, though I don't recall anyone close to as good at that as Jamison was. It's remarkable they didn't win in 1998. Of course, with UNC losing to Utah, it's remarkable Duke didn't win either.

[Starter]

I don't have much on this game in particular, just that this has been an amazing coaching job for Krzyzewski, up there with his best. To lose his three best players and currently be 26-4, undefeated on the road in the conference, to have beaten the teams they've beaten, he's done an amazing job. I still remember the threads early in the season saying this season was going to be insufferable, and I recall thinking that they should try rooting for the Knicks sometime! Duke consistently gets good players and good kids, they always have a very good record, they have the best coach and there's always a lot to like about these teams.

As always, this isn't to say I've agreed with literally everything Krzyzewski has done this year, and I haven't exactly been shy about it, perhaps to a fault. I've always maintained that just because he's a legendary coach in the midst of a great year doesn't mean we mere mortals can't maintain opinions that certain things can be done differently in terms of strategy and player deployment. But taken on the whole, I'd put this season up with his best for creating a cohesive unit out of a ragtag -- at least for Duke -- group of players. When it comes down to it, you wouldn't want anyone else shaping your program and guiding your team.

[Scorp4me]

While I know they aren't playing the same position, Tyler does seem to be the person who is picking up the minutes Andre is losing. In the VaTech game, that was probably a good exchange, but today--and going forward--I don't know.

I love Andre, I mean how can you not. And off the bench often times he is instant offense. But I think the team is simply a better team with Thornton on the floor. Earlier it was Duke can't win without Cook playing more than Thornton. Now it's Duke can't win without Andre playing more than Thornton. But all along they keep winning which is just fine with me!

[nocilla]

I actually saw Mason as potentially an Amar'e Stoudemire type on the college level, which is to say a potential problem in the pick and roll. Much like Stoudemire this season -- until Linsanity broke out -- I do feel it hurts Mase that he doesn't play with a true pick and roll point guard, which are admittedly hard to come by on the college level. It's just, that would work to his strengths more. I enjoyed watching Mason hit those hook shots early in the season, but it always seemed like he had to work harder than he should have to get position in the post.

I agree and it looks like Cook is the closest we have to a pick and roll point guard. It seemed like there was a stretch in the 2nd half last night where Curry and Rivers were getting picks by Mason and he would be open rolling to the basket but they never even looked in his direction. Then Cook came in and passed to Mason off the pick and roll 2 or 3 times. One of them led to the 3 point play which was good but almost a charge call. I am a little concerned that Mason rolling to the basket with a head of steam will lead to some offensive fouls but I also think he can get some easy baskets if the guard makes an effort to find him. Curry and Rivers being scorers aren't naturally going to look for the pass, so I don't know that it will change much. Thornton isn't in the position to create very often so I don't think he gets many pick and roll opportunities. Cook is really the only guy that will look to the roller, but his minutes are unpredictable.

[BlueDevilCorvette!]

Each time he got put in the game in the 2nd half he did one of 3 things (sometimes all 3 during one stint on the court): get beat off the dribble for a layup, miss an open shot, turn it over. He is a shooter so when he misses OPEN looks and doesn't play much defense, he is a liability

Yeah Andre did do all the aforementioned things but so did his teammates at times but yet they remain in the game. I'm not making excuses for Andre or anything but the guy was busting his tail trying to get opened and wasn't passed the ball on several occassions (example, Duke 3 on 1 break and Cook tries passing the ball in a direct line to Rivers with the defender in front, rather than Andre open on the wing leading to a turnover). So what if Andre misses one shot, feed him and he can give you 4, 5, 6 in a row. Maybe I have blinders on since Andre is one of my favorite players but I don't see Coach K treating any other players as he does Andre. If he treated Rivers like he does Andre then Rivers wouldn't average double figures and his playing time would be significantly diminished...(I'm just saying...). In addition, Andre's defense is no less a "liability" than any other perimeter player and to be honest all our perimeter players lack great lateral quickness and get beat off the dribble (at times) and not "just" Andre.

[wilko]

Thornton isn't in the position to create very often so I don't think he gets many pick and roll opportunities. Cook is really the only guy that will look to the roller, but his minutes are unpredictable.

I tend to think that Quinn got a bit more burn last night due to Josh being out. True, his minutes ARE unpredictable. But they are also a reward for seizing the opportunity and playing well when called on, predicated on good practices. He had some setback earlier (flu bug?) as I recall so maybe he is finally hitting his stride again after that.

I think part of whats put a lid on the MP's productivity is the lack of an experienced pure distributor getting them the ball in optimum spots/situations on the floor. So, if Quinn can consistently add this element to our O even in spots? "better late than never" I say.

[wilko]

I assume Wojo and others have tried to get him to keep the ball up and simply put it in. But he either hasn't learned, or more interestingly, maybe cannot learn how to keep his balance without this wasteful rhythm dribble. I'm convinced the rhythm dribble is a compensation for poor footwork. But it strikes me that in fact the rhythm dribble far more often than not actually adds to his self-confusing footwork, for sometimes rather than getting fouled, or having his shot flicked, he simply walks.

Your musings inspired a novel notion...
Perhaps Mason is doing exactly as he is supposed to?

Your assumption (and Mine as the common Fan) is that we are supposed to take the points. Could there be any intent to trying to draw the fouls? Clearing the lane of a space eater in the post, making them tentative and less aggressive in their movements. There is a strategy element to that aspect of it that I can appreciate.

Is anyone in a position to elaborate? Perhaps I am trying too hard to rationalize?