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  1. #1

    Featherston's front page piece on ACC champions

    Excerpt:

    "That rule was formalized on July 1, 1961 when at the conference meetings in Greensboro, UNC’s motion to designate the regular season winner as champion failed to receive a second. As soon that that motion was off the table, the league officials voted unanimously to designate the tournament winner as champion....

    The debate was really fierce back in the 1950s and 1960s, when only the tournament champion could represent the ACC in the NCAA. When fourth-seeded Duke upset co-regular season champions North Carolina and Wake on back-to-back nights to win the 1960 ACC Tournament, there was outrage."

    Question:

    With respect to UNC's 1961 motion to designate the winner of the regular season as the "champion" -- coming on the heels of the 1960 outrage .... was the motion to also award the NCAA berth to the regular season winner?

    That is, I see two issues:

    1. Who is called the official champion?
    2. Who gets the NCAA berth?

    Was UNC's 1961 motion directed at both issues?

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Charlotte, North Carolina
    Best part of the article:

    [Or maybe it has something to do with the fact that Duke now rules the tournament with an iron hand (10 titles in the last 13 years). After all, the banner for the 1924 Helms Foundation championship was a small, obscure piece of cloth until after the 1992 season when Duke tied UNC with is second nation championship … and suddenly the Helms banner was given equal status with the Tar Heel NCAA title banners in the rafters of the Smith Center.

    When UNC was the ACC’s most successful tournament team it was a big deal – so big that Dean Smith felt pressure to win the tournament for the fans. Now that Duke has that honor, it’s just not that important in Chapel Hill.

    I think that’s what they call “The Carolina Way.”]

    As they say on IC:

    +1
    Brian Zoubek on what was going through his mind walking to the free throw line with 3.6 seconds remaining in the 2010 National Championship game and Duke up by 1: "Fifty percent [of me is] thinking, This is what I've been dreaming of doing my entire life. Fifty percent I'm crapping my pants."

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Here is the wiki explanation of the ACC Men's Basketball Champion :

    Since July 1, 1961, the ACC's bylaws have included the phrase "and the winner shall be the conference champion" in referring to the tournament.[1] Accordingly, the teams listed below are the ACC men's basketball champions for the years indicated, and it is not technically correct to refer to them as the "tournament champions" insofar as that usage implies that there is some other championship. While it has become popular for the media (and fans of teams that finish first in the regular season but fail to win the tournament) to use the term "regular-season champions," such usage is not borne out by league rules.

    The wiki article from which this comes:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ment_champions
    Man, if your Mom made you wear that color when you were a baby, and you're still wearing it, it's time to grow up!

  4. #4
    “Another way of looking at it is that a champion must always win his last fight. That is the way it has always been. The [1964] World Series is a good example. I do not believe that the St. Louis Cardinals are as good a team as the Yankees, but they are champions.”

    Think about that for a second.

    Isn’t that the essence of sports?

    Who is the reigning NFL champion? Do we recognize Green Bay for their 15-1 regular season performance? After all, that was two games better than anyone else in the league managed over the course of the long, trying season. If you want to crown the ACC regular season champion, shouldn’t the Packers be touted as NFL champs over a 9-7 Giants team that got hot at the right time?

    Or how about Major League baseball? The Phillies won 102 games over the course of the regular season, yet because they lost a short series in the playoffs, we celebrate a 90-win St. Louis team as World Champions.

    That’s the way it is in every sport … and I mean every sport.
    In the US, but not everywhere.
    Most European soccer leagues, for example, consider the primary champion to be the league round-robin winner.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerbd View Post
    In the US, but not everywhere.
    Most European soccer leagues, for example, consider the primary champion to be the league round-robin winner.
    Roy Williams grew up in the wrong country, I guess.
    Man, if your Mom made you wear that color when you were a baby, and you're still wearing it, it's time to grow up!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by killerleft View Post
    Roy Williams grew up in the wrong country, I guess.
    Well if the ACC had a round-robin, Roy would have a point.

    I suppose Roy (and Carolina fans) would like to take away his 2005 national title because Illinois had the best regular season of any team that year? If Roy dislikes the ACC tournament, shouldn't he dislike the awarding of championships on the basis of any tournament? Why not just award the National Championship to the team with the best record?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieTiger View Post
    ... Why not just award the National Championship to the team with the best record?
    Interesting to look at the sports-reference final expanded standings, which includes tournament games. Using this "body of work" dork poll method, Carolina gets to keep its 2005 trophy, as it ended up #1:

    http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/...standings.html

    Duke can hang banners for 98, 99, 02 and 04, when it finished #1 overall in the final ordering.

    We have to give back 92 (Indiana) and 91 (Vegas), however.

    And for those who rue not getting the trophy in 1986, Carolina actually ended up #1 that year. They were 25-1 at one point; w/ 7 games over 100 points.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Atlanta, Georgia

    Don't think you are correct

    I must be missing something here.

    In 1986, we beat the Heels on the final day of the regular season, and finished first in the conference. Then we beat Tech in the finals of the ACC Tourney. I believe Duke was overall number 1 in the country going into the NCAA Tournament, having lost only twice. Carolina lost at least three times, and probably more than that - I guess one could look it up, were one so inclined.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by jaytoc View Post
    I must be missing something here. ...
    http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/...standings.html

    ... dork ordering based on "SRS" ...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reilly View Post
    Interesting to look at the sports-reference final expanded standings, which includes tournament games. Using this "body of work" dork poll method, Carolina gets to keep its 2005 trophy, as it ended up #1:

    http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/...standings.html

    Duke can hang banners for 98, 99, 02 and 04, when it finished #1 overall in the final ordering.

    We have to give back 92 (Indiana) and 91 (Vegas), however.

    And for those who rue not getting the trophy in 1986, Carolina actually ended up #1 that year. They were 25-1 at one point; w/ 7 games over 100 points.
    We were also #1 Sagarin in 2006, and I believe 1992. Regarding other years we also happened to win that six-game tournament thingy, we won at least Pomeroy in 2010 and most of the polls in '01.

    Back on the old boards someone made a "banner" for these that consisted of the Simpsons' Comic Book Guy sitting at a computer.
    Sometimes I mistake this for a universe that cares. -- xkcd #625

  11. #11
    Googling for info on another thread, I discovered this wikipedia page:

    2010–11 Atlantic Coast Conference men's basketball season

    In the summary blurb it lists UNC as the "First Place" team, with no reference to who the actual ACC Champion is. There is a little footnote next to Duke in the regular season standings that says "2011 ACC Tournament winner"

    I'm not surprised by this comment in the "talk" section:

    "I apologize to all when i created this page i was meaning to create the University of North Carolina's ACC season"

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Reilly View Post
    We have to give back 92 (Indiana)
    Huh? I thought Duke managed to stay #1 the entire season. Aren't we the last team to do that?

    http://www.collegepollarchive.com/mb...?seasonid=1992

    eta - oh duh - you're not talking about ap polls.
    Last edited by gus; 02-27-2012 at 03:16 PM. Reason: reading comprehension

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by gus View Post
    Googling for info on another thread, I discovered this wikipedia page:

    2010–11 Atlantic Coast Conference men's basketball season

    In the summary blurb it lists UNC as the "First Place" team, with no reference to who the actual ACC Champion is. There is a little footnote next to Duke in the regular season standings that says "2011 ACC Tournament winner"

    I'm not surprised by this comment in the "talk" section:

    "I apologize to all when i created this page i was meaning to create the University of North Carolina's ACC season"
    Nice. Someone edited the page already, and Duke is now properly listed as "Champion". Thanks to whoever did that!

  14. #14
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    I just want to know what Al's referenced book project is ???!!!!
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