Front Page Write Up On VT and Thuggery

[Channing]

Not sure what the point of the front page write up is. I watched and rewatched the pick and didn't think there was any over the top taunting. People on the board always remind folks that these are just kids. Duke players are just as guilty of "showboating" or "taunting" as other teams ... see Andre Dawkins and, in an even bigger show, Quinn Cook after The Shot 2.0.

Was it the most sportsmanlike action? Probably not. Was it some sort of unacceptable display? I hope not, or else we have some issues on our own team.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Taunting after making a good play is just... well... kinda stupid.

But it's another thing entirely to hurt someone, even if unintentionally, and then stand over them woofing for even half a second. Which is exactly what Raines did. I saw it on the replay a couple times and it pissed me off.

[UrinalCake]

Just wanted to get this off my chest - every time we play Maryland in College Park they show the replay of Dave Neal's pick on Nolan Smith which gave him a concussion. The announcers have a good laugh about it, they joke about Nolan "seeing stars" while commending Neal for being so tough. Never mind the fact that a player was seriously hurt. If a Duke player did that to someone he would be vilified as a thug and the fact that no call was made would serve as proof that Duke gets all the calls.

[cf-62]

Taunting after making a good play is just... well... kinda stupid.

But it's another thing entirely to hurt someone, even if unintentionally, and then stand over them woofing for even half a second. Which is exactly what Raines did. I saw it on the replay a couple times and it pissed me off.

Guys, I've watched the replay on TV many many times. And it happened literally 30 feet in front of me. I can tell you that there was nothing I wouldn't expect from any center laying out a point guard.

I think we watch the world through our Duke blue colored glasses as much as Terrapins and State fans believe there are conspiracies throughout the league.

There was nothing wrong with what happened during, or after, the pick. Tyler was actually fine.

No need to stoke the FNG fires any more. After all, we're about to get 2 - 4 FNGs to complain about. It's time we let VPI just, well, not matter.

[DukieInKansas]

Didn't Daniel Ewing get a T for the "taunt" over Tyler yesterday?

I thought I saw a slight taunt after the pick. I figured nothing was called since it was so close to the end of a close game. For the record, I don't like it when a Duke player does anything like this either.

[cf-62]

Didn't Daniel Ewing get a T for the "taunt" over Tyler yesterday?

I thought I saw a slight taunt after the pick. I figured nothing was called since it was so close to the end of a close game. For the record, I don't like it when a Duke player does anything like this either.

Well, the old fogie / sportsman in me wishes that every taunt like this would be T'd up 100% of the time, muscle flexes, yells in the camera, rim swings, staredowns, etc. But they're NOT! Which means that if the ref had T's up that very small staredown, then Duke really WOULD get all the calls.

[wilko]

Well, the old fogie / sportsman in me wishes that every taunt like this would be T'd up 100% of the time, muscle flexes, yells in the camera, rim swings, staredowns, etc. But they're NOT! .

I hear ya!
My inner Fogie agrees with this. In fact I'd take it further.

I don't like the physicality that is allowed to take place in the games today at a very general level (not specific to the Duke-Vt game) I think that the "physical play" that's unfortunately the norm today, takes away from the players that are true technicians and students of the game. It detracts from proper execution and fundamentals in playing the game, at least from my POV.

If a player is bringing the ball across 1/2 court is un-pressured and carries/palms the ball.. the the ref should MAKE THE CALL. I don't understand how "advantage" is selectively employed... NOT making that call is an inherent advantage to the team that doesn't focus on the fundamentals (not to mention rules) and rewards poor play. I am not a fan of this trend.

As for fouls on Duke not being called. Sorry Boozer was fouled on the put-back Vs IU. Langdon was fouled vs Uconn. Deng got KNOCKED OUT in a game and still no fouls FOR Duke? Whatever benefit Duke *may* get, I refuse to feel bad about it EVER!

All this carping seemingly started from UMd and UNC fans -
I'd dare say at this point Duke gets away with less violations than any other team. All this white noise about fouls and favoritism ... its affecting the Refs and they have to try hard to demonstrate a non-bias as opposed to just calling the dadgum game.

I'll stop now before somebody asks me to document and prove my assertions. I don't have the time or initiative currently to get into all that.

[dukeENG2003]

If a player is bringing the ball across 1/2 court is un-pressured and carries/palms the ball.. the the ref should MAKE THE CALL. I don't understand how "advantage" is selectively employed... NOT making that call is an inherent advantage to the team that doesn't focus on the fundamentals (not to mention rules) and rewards poor play. I am not a fan of this trend.

Agreed.

In the same vein, it makes me cringe the fact that Austin walks EVERY time he catches the ball on the perimiter. He is SO sloppy with his footwork when he catches the ball. I can't figure out if its on purpose to keep his defender off balance (since they have no idea what his pivot foot is, considering he doesn't either) or what. Austin isn't the only player who does this though, its VERY common in college ball and particularly in the NBA.

[cf-62]

Agreed.

In the same vein, it makes me cringe the fact that Austin walks EVERY time he catches the ball on the perimiter. He is SO sloppy with his footwork when he catches the ball. I can't figure out if its on purpose to keep his defender off balance (since they have no idea what his pivot foot is, considering he doesn't either) or what. Austin isn't the only player who does this though, its VERY common in college ball and particularly in the NBA.

The "reverse pivot on the catch at the hash line" is actually one of those calls that I mention gets me riled up. It is called maybe twice a year. The fact that it was called Thursday night on Seth - grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Not just Austin, but every player that comes off a flex screen to the hash mark essentially double pivots when they catch the ball. NEVER called - except in the worst of situations. (like we're up 2 on UNC - happened a few years ago).

[Jderf]

Agreed.

In the same vein, it makes me cringe the fact that Austin walks EVERY time he catches the ball on the perimiter. He is SO sloppy with his footwork when he catches the ball. I can't figure out if its on purpose to keep his defender off balance (since they have no idea what his pivot foot is, considering he doesn't either) or what. Austin isn't the only player who does this though, its VERY common in college ball and particularly in the NBA.

In my opinion, this post, as well as mine, should be deleted. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should we DBR members discuss or otherwise acknowledge Austin's 100% travel per possession rate. There is no reason to draw the public's attention to this. It can only hurt us.

[Greg_Newton]

In my opinion, this post, as well as mine, should be deleted. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should we DBR members discuss or otherwise acknowledge Austin's 100% travel per possession rate. There is no reason to draw the public's attention to this. It can only hurt us.

lol

Delete mine too, but it also drives me crazy. When Valentine called him for it against FSU, I was all "WHA... oh, well... okay." Can't really argue that it's not a travel; you'd like for our best player to not give the refs reason to call him for a TO every time he gets the ball...

[CDu]

lol

Delete mine too, but it also drives me crazy. When Valentine called him for it against FSU, I was all "WHA... oh, well... okay." Can't really argue that it's not a travel; you'd like for our best player to not give the refs reason to call him for a TO every time he gets the ball...

In fairness, it's not exclusive to Rivers (though he does it more frequently than most people simply due to volume of possessions). Nearly everyone travels when the catch the ball coming toward half court away from the basket. It should be called a lot more than it is.

[Greg_Newton]

In fairness, it's not exclusive to Rivers (though he does it more frequently than most people simply due to volume of possessions). Nearly everyone travels when the catch the ball coming toward half court away from the basket. It should be called a lot more than it is.

I know man, but not as bad as Rivers. And it's more than just on the catch, he shifts his pivot foot on almost every first step-cut he makes, which is a little less common.

But ANYWAY...

[Jderf]

lol

Delete mine too, but it also drives me crazy. When Valentine called him for it against FSU, I was all "WHA... oh, well... okay." Can't really argue that it's not a travel; you'd like for our best player to not give the refs reason to call him for a TO every time he gets the ball...

Yeah... and you just know it is going to happen in the most terrible situation possible.

I remember when a player in the NCAA tournament (I'm not sure if it was last year's tourney or the one before) got called for a TO in the dying seconds of a single-possession game for -- good lord! -- having his toe on the line for the inbounds pass.

[sarcasm] How did he expect to get away with such obvious cheating? He clearly got far too big of an advantage for the refs to let him get away with it. [/sarcasm]

I have not seen a ref ever make that call, before or since.

Edit: Wow, sorry. I just realized how far off-topic this is. My apologies.

[Channing]

Yeah... and you just know it is going to happen in the most terrible situation possible.

I remember when a player in the NCAA tournament (I'm not sure if it was last year's tourney or the one before) got called for a TO in the dying seconds of a single-possession game for -- good lord! -- having his toe on the line for the inbounds pass.

[sarcasm] How did he expect to get away with such obvious cheating? He clearly got far too big of an advantage for the refs to let him get away with it. [/sarcasm]

I have not seen a ref ever make that call, before or since.

Edit: Wow, sorry. I just realized how far off-topic this is. My apologies.

this is one that drives me crazy. If they aren't going to enforce the rule, why not just have the players check the ball to the other team to start the clock.

[Jderf]

this is one that drives me crazy. If they aren't going to enforce the rule, why not just have the players check the ball to the other team to start the clock.

Okay, one more and then I'll stop hijacking the thread: Why don't they just change the rulebook to finally say that a player on the losing team is allowed to intentionally foul in the final minutes of the game and only be penalized with a regular foul. Or did this already happen and I just missed it? Because, I think technically, the winning team should get two shots and then keep possession every single time. But if refs actual made the correct call here, a late 7 point lead would essentially become a blow-out. At this point, breaking the rule is so ingrained in the game that it would not even make sense to enforce it.

They could even add in a caveat along a certain line, which I would actually like to see, saying that a team can only use up their extra fouls to a certain point (i.e. penalize teams who play a very rough style of play by forcing them to use up their "extra" fouls through the course of the game, leaving none for when they need them at the end). A sensible limit, in my opinion would be three fouls past the double bonus (so 13 fouls total for the second half), but I could understand arguments for higher or lower limits--or even, for no limit at all, to be honest. I'm just speculating here.

[cf-62]

I hear ya!
My inner Fogie agrees with this. In fact I'd take it further.

I don't like the physicality that is allowed to take place in the games today at a very general level (not specific to the Duke-Vt game) I think that the "physical play" that's unfortunately the norm today, takes away from the players that are true technicians and students of the game. It detracts from proper execution and fundamentals in playing the game, at least from my POV.

If a player is bringing the ball across 1/2 court is un-pressured and carries/palms the ball.. the the ref should MAKE THE CALL. I don't understand how "advantage" is selectively employed... NOT making that call is an inherent advantage to the team that doesn't focus on the fundamentals (not to mention rules) and rewards poor play. I am not a fan of this trend.

As for fouls on Duke not being called. Sorry Boozer was fouled on the put-back Vs IU. Langdon was fouled vs Uconn. Deng got KNOCKED OUT in a game and still no fouls FOR Duke? Whatever benefit Duke *may* get, I refuse to feel bad about it EVER!

All this carping seemingly started from UMd and UNC fans -
I'd dare say at this point Duke gets away with less violations than any other team. All this white noise about fouls and favoritism ... its affecting the Refs and they have to try hard to demonstrate a non-bias as opposed to just calling the dadgum game.

I'll stop now before somebody asks me to document and prove my assertions. I don't have the time or initiative currently to get into all that.

I don't know why this is, but we ALL know that Duke got shafted by the refs at the end of certain games - that cost us at least an opportunity to win more championships - yet we are all able to couch that knowledge with a grounding "well, we shouldn't have been in that position" or "we missed too many free throws." Instead of focusing on foul 5, for example, we accept the fact that the first 4 fouls were silly, putting you at the mercy of a quick whistle by mr. stripes. Yes, Mr. Benedict didn't call a foul that was intentionally committed because the defender knew the layup wins the game. Maybe we shouldn't have blown a 17 point lead - including an 8 point lead in the last 2 minutes.

Why other schools can't seem to deal with this, I don't understand. Kansas, by the way, seems to have this mindset as well. The ability to not focus on a possible physical play by a defender, but rather simply say that their guard wasn't strong with the ball.

The funniest are the Kentucky fans that re-write history to MAKE the loss in '92 the refs' fault. Nobody complained in 1992, or 93, 94, 95, ... all the way up to about 2002. That was when the story out of Lexington changed to "Laettner should have been ejected." Gee, at the time you didn't seem to mind the fact that he got called for a technical that started a 12 - 2 run. In fact, I would say that everybody involved from the UK side would say they got what they wanted - until the infamous 2001 Final 4 with the 2 whiniest fan bases I've ever seen - Maryland and Arizona.

At any rate, while I do get extremely riled up at certain calls (Ted Valentine, offensive foul on Dawkins last week comes to mind), I never sit around and say "the ref cost us the game."

And, again, back to the staredown, I heard that D-Ewing was hit with a technical for the TT staredown, so it all worked out.

[MChambers]

Didn't Daniel Ewing get a T for the "taunt" over Tyler yesterday?

I thought I saw a slight taunt after the pick. I figured nothing was called since it was so close to the end of a close game. For the record, I don't like it when a Duke player does anything like this either.

If Karl Hess had done the game, Dell Curry and Doc Rivers would have been ejected.

[JNort]

Not sure what the point of the front page write up is. I watched and rewatched the pick and didn't think there was any over the top taunting. People on the board always remind folks that these are just kids. Duke players are just as guilty of "showboating" or "taunting" as other teams ... see Andre Dawkins and, in an even bigger show, Quinn Cook after The Shot 2.0.

Was it the most sportsmanlike action? Probably not. Was it some sort of unacceptable display? I hope not, or else we have some issues on our own team.

I have watched the replay several time now and agree completely with you on this. Nothing even remotely thuggish on the play. Can we move on yet?

[91_92_01_10_15]

I have watched the replay several time now and agree completely with you on this. Nothing even remotely thuggish on the play. Can we move on yet?

Well, it's hard to argue with this not knowing what your definition of "thuggish" is, but I was at the game and was personally outraged in the moment. I've now watched the replay and again saw the VT player pause to look down at Tyler after the pick knocked Tyler to the floor.

I thought it was uncalled for and displayed poor sportsmanship. Just my opinion.