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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by slower View Post
    Oh brother, is it mini-Wheat time again?

    Where's that ignore button?
    Wish I had time to hang out more here this time of year...cheap entertainment! Sorry to let everyone down!
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    OK, and we should also consider that Henson's individual stats are also limited by playing alongside two other potential all ACC players in the post, players who are also way up there in league stats, something no-one else has to do.
    Are they? Certainly Henson's scoring numbers will be helped by the fact that he will never be the focus of an opponent's defensive scheme.

    Also, who is UNC's second other potential all-ACC post player?

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    Are they? Certainly Henson's scoring numbers will be helped by the fact that he will never be the focus of an opponent's defensive scheme.

    Also, who is UNC's second other potential all-ACC post player?
    Barnes.

    He's considered a frontline player, at least by me.

    Never say never, they say. His offense gets better every game. Somebody better decide to defend him, he's getting about 14 a game.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    I would say Zeller (POY), Henson (best 2-way player in the league, though Zeller is not far off), Scott and Rivers are - and all should be - locks.

    Barnes will probably nab the 5th spot due to rep and attention, though I'm not sure he really deserves it. He has put up solid numbers all year, at least in terms of scoring, but has rarely been dominant or clutch. And to me, Barnes is the least impactful of the Heels' "big four" in terms of overall influence on games and how the team overall plays. I see Marshall and Snaer as more deserving, with Stoglin and Kadji also deserving of consideration.

    Count me among the Duke fans who aren't especially bothered by Henson. In fact, i found some of his antics in the first Duke -UNC game almost comical, particularly when he tried to act like some sort of tough guy. Does anyone seriously think he could take anyone on the Duke team, especially Tyler? Not me.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by luvdahops View Post
    I would say Zeller (POY), Henson (best 2-way player in the league, though Zeller is not far off), Scott and Rivers are - and all should be - locks.

    Barnes will probably nab the 5th spot due to rep and attention, though I'm not sure he really deserves it. He has put up solid numbers all year, at least in terms of scoring, but has rarely been dominant or clutch. And to me, Barnes is the least impactful of the Heels' "big four" in terms of overall influence on games and how the team overall plays. I see Marshall and Snaer as more deserving, with Stoglin and Kadji also deserving of consideration.

    Count me among the Duke fans who aren't especially bothered by Henson. In fact, i found some of his antics in the first Duke -UNC game almost comical, particularly when he tried to act like some sort of tough guy. Does anyone seriously think he could take anyone on the Duke team, especially Tyler? Not me.
    If I was forced to only choose two Heels for first team, I'd leave out Barnes before Henson and Zeller. But I do think Barnes deserves to be chosen as one of the top five players in the league.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Charlotte, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    If I was forced to only choose two Heels for first team, I'd leave out Barnes before Henson and Zeller. But I do think Barnes deserves to be chosen as one of the top five players in the league.
    I'm enjoying your 2 thread argument that UNC deserves 3 players on the all ACC team and yet Roy deserves consideration for COY for the job he's done guiding them to a 2 way tie for first in the league. That takes stones, my friend.
    Brian Zoubek on what was going through his mind walking to the free throw line with 3.6 seconds remaining in the 2010 National Championship game and Duke up by 1: "Fifty percent [of me is] thinking, This is what I've been dreaming of doing my entire life. Fifty percent I'm crapping my pants."

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    OK, and we should also consider that Henson's individual stats are also limited by playing alongside two other potential all ACC players in the post, players who are also way up there in league stats, something no-one else has to do.
    There's a fundamental difference between idly speculating about how much better one's stats would be if they played on a team with more or less talent around them, and the objective truth that more possessions per game directly results in more points, rebounds, and everything else per game.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Wish I had time to hang out more here this time of year...cheap entertainment! Sorry to let everyone down!
    Don't worry. We ALL know that you'll somehow find time to hang out more if the Holes win on Saturday.

  9. #49

    I'm not sure that I get all the Marshall love.

    Quote Originally Posted by luvdahops View Post
    I would say Zeller (POY), Henson (best 2-way player in the league, though Zeller is not far off), Scott and Rivers are - and all should be - locks.

    Barnes will probably nab the 5th spot due to rep and attention, though I'm not sure he really deserves it. He has put up solid numbers all year, at least in terms of scoring, but has rarely been dominant or clutch. And to me, Barnes is the least impactful of the Heels' "big four" in terms of overall influence on games and how the team overall plays. I see Marshall and Snaer as more deserving, with Stoglin and Kadji also deserving of consideration.

    Count me among the Duke fans who aren't especially bothered by Henson. In fact, i found some of his antics in the first Duke -UNC game almost comical, particularly when he tried to act like some sort of tough guy. Does anyone seriously think he could take anyone on the Duke team, especially Tyler? Not me.
    Disclaimer: I've only seen one complete UNC game (against Virginia Tech) and two partial games (against Duke and UVa). However, my impressions based on those games are that Marshall does a good job of running the point, but I think that any decent point guard would do that with the options that UNC has. He's consistently beaten on the defensive end, to the point that he's almost a liability. In essence, he'd be a role player on most teams who puts up gaudy numbers because UNC has so much talent at other positions.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Albemarle, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by HokieEngineer View Post
    Disclaimer: I've only seen one complete UNC game (against Virginia Tech) and two partial games (against Duke and UVa). However, my impressions based on those games are that Marshall does a good job of running the point, but I think that any decent point guard would do that with the options that UNC has. He's consistently beaten on the defensive end, to the point that he's almost a liability. In essence, he'd be a role player on most teams who puts up gaudy numbers because UNC has so much talent at other positions.
    Partially agree. I think most point guards that have good vision and passing skills could easily replace him. He is slow, does not play D, does not contribute much on offense as scoring goes. He just makes good entry passes to the best front court in all of college which inflates his stats. If Barnes, Zeller and Henson all leave this year then Marhall should as well because his stats will take a big dip.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by davekay1971 View Post
    I'm enjoying your 2 thread argument that UNC deserves 3 players on the all ACC team and yet Roy deserves consideration for COY for the job he's done guiding them to a 2 way tie for first in the league. That takes stones, my friend.
    Dave...
    Stones, we talkin' bout stones?

    So you don't think Roy has done a good job after losing two starters, and couldn't be considered at least on par with coach K this season because he started with good players... Like making good players better shouldn't count?

    Here's some stones for ya....(best Palin voice)

    For example, looking at players being coached to improve their games overall, I'll take the continued improvement I've seen in Zeller, Henson and Barnes over the continued improvement, or lack of, in Mason, Miles, and Kelley's games all day. That's coaching, and UNC is winning.

    Coach K is a great coach that has been lucky this season with some tough individual play from his players to keep this team from middle of the pack ACC play. I'll give him credit for keeping them in position to be lucky, recognizing they have to bomb away to have a chance, and keeping them tough, that's good coaching, no doubt.

    But Roy is coaching well too, and should get at least equal credit for what his team is accomplishing.

    Rivalry talk here, and a day off to joust a little,..nobody get all mad.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by slower View Post
    Don't worry. We ALL know that you'll somehow find time to hang out more if the Holes win on Saturday.
    Actually, I scheduled a board meeting/ fund raiser with my new charitable foundation for Saturday night in a private room at a local restaurant...of course we will have a big screen, so don't expect any comments from me either way until Sunday....but rest assured I'll stop by no matter what.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Lewisville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Dave...
    Coach K is a great coach that has been lucky this season with some tough individual play from his players to keep this team from middle of the pack ACC play. I'll give him credit for keeping them in position to be lucky, recognizing they have to bomb away to have a chance, and keeping them tough, that's good coaching, no doubt.


    Rivalry talk here, and a day off to joust a little,..nobody get all mad.
    Sorry, I know this is rivalry talk, but I take offense to the "lucky" theme. Duke is 12-2 in the conference with comeback wins over NC State and UNC and an overtime win over VaTech. But the two losses were on a buzzer beater by Florida State (by Snaer, who banked in a 3-pointer to end the first half) and in overtime to Miami. So, a few of the wins could have gone the other way, but certainly the losses could have, too. Would a different result or two really put this Duke team in the middle of the pack?

    And then the "they have to bomb away to have a chance"?? Is that to imply that 3-point shooting is somehow not real basketball or is some sort of desperation strategy for this team?

    No woofing on Ole Roy and the Heels here, just taking note of your lack of respect for what Coach K and this Duke team have achieved.
    Scoreboard.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Actually, I scheduled a board meeting/ fund raiser with my new charitable foundation for Saturday night in a private room at a local restaurant...of course we will have a big screen, so don't expect any comments from me either way until Sunday....but rest assured I'll stop by no matter what.
    Awesome for you, dude. I'll be eating cake frosting in a hot tub with my trophy wife.

    DV-R, baby.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by JNort View Post
    Partially agree. I think most point guards that have good vision and passing skills could easily replace him. He is slow, does not play D, does not contribute much on offense as scoring goes. He just makes good entry passes to the best front court in all of college which inflates his stats. If Barnes, Zeller and Henson all leave this year then Marhall should as well because his stats will take a big dip.
    Marshall is not just an average, good vision, point guard. He's setting records that have stood all time in the ACC...

    And it's not just because there are good players around him. Everybody else had good players around them too all those years.

    I think he hurts himself on defense because he paces himself to play extended minutes without a backup. More energy and effort would make his D tougher. He's not a bad defender, he's average, and is up there in league steals.

    All said, he does need to improve that D, shoot better, and finish at the rim better. That's a few reasons he won't make first team All-ACC.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by slower View Post
    Awesome for you, dude. I'll be eating cake frosting in a hot tub with my trophy wife.
    What a coincidence, me too right after my meeting.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    What a coincidence, me too right after my meeting.
    Apparently, I have better time-management skills than you do.

    Opportunity cost, my friend.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by roywhite View Post
    Sorry, I know this is rivalry talk, but I take offense to the "lucky" theme. Duke is 12-2 in the conference with comeback wins over NC State and UNC and an overtime win over VaTech. But the two losses were on a buzzer beater by Florida State (by Snaer, who banked in a 3-pointer to end the first half) and in overtime to Miami. So, a few of the wins could have gone the other way, but certainly the losses could have, too. Would a different result or two really put this Duke team in the middle of the pack?

    And then the "they have to bomb away to have a chance"?? Is that to imply that 3-point shooting is somehow not real basketball or is some sort of desperation strategy for this team?

    No woofing on Ole Roy and the Heels here, just taking note of your lack of respect for what Coach K and this Duke team have achieved.
    Scoreboard.
    Gotcha....na na..na na na....
    We agree...talk is cheap, Scoreboard is what counts and I'm now playing from behind.

    I'll take my Sunday break now before somebody starts taking things too seriously...
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by roywhite View Post
    And then the "they have to bomb away to have a chance"?? Is that to imply that 3-point shooting is somehow not real basketball or is some sort of desperation strategy for this team?
    It's been 14 years. I don't think that still counts as implying.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    For example, looking at players being coached to improve their games overall, I'll take the continued improvement I've seen in Zeller, Henson and Barnes over the continued improvement, or lack of, in Mason, Miles, and Kelley's games all day. That's coaching, and UNC is winning.
    Zeller, Henson and Barnes were more highly rated out of high school than Mason and Kelly (to say nothing of Miles), and Zeller and Barnes arrived on campus much less prepared for college basketball. (Which is saying something, given the remarkable mediocrity of Barnes' rookie season.) What are you even talking about?

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