Thread Nitpicking Deficiencies In Duke's Best Player And Leading Scorer

[UrinalCake]

Austin's shooting form looks really odd to me. He uses both hands, rather than shooting with one dominant hand and using the other to position the ball. He seems to start with the ball really low, near his chest, and he falls backwards on the release. He also seems to keep his lower body square to the basket but then kick his right leg forwards as he elevates.

No one can question his shot's effectiveness - he's shooting 40% from three on the year. I've watched the UNC game winner at least 50 times and it goes in every time . But I'm still curious if anyone else has noticed this and knows if the coaching staff is doing anything about changing it. It seems odd to me that a coach's son would have such unconventional form. Do we even have a "shooting form" coach? We seemed to leave Scheyer alone with his quirky sidespin shot, despite how streaky he was.

[Kedsy]

Austin's shooting form looks really odd to me. He uses both hands, rather than shooting with one dominant hand and using the other to position the ball. He seems to start with the ball really low, near his chest, and he falls backwards on the release. He also seems to keep his lower body square to the basket but then kick his right leg forwards as he elevates.

No one can question his shot's effectiveness - he's shooting 40% from three on the year. I've watched the UNC game winner at least 50 times and it goes in every time . But I'm still curious if anyone else has noticed this and knows if the coaching staff is doing anything about changing it. It seems odd to me that a coach's son would have such unconventional form. Do we even have a "shooting form" coach? We seemed to leave Scheyer alone with his quirky sidespin shot, despite how streaky he was.

Yes, many people have noticed it. His right elbow sticks out too far, as well.

I strongly doubt the coaching staff would feel comfortable messing with it, though.

[JNort]

Austin's shooting form looks really odd to me. He uses both hands, rather than shooting with one dominant hand and using the other to position the ball. He seems to start with the ball really low, near his chest, and he falls backwards on the release. He also seems to keep his lower body square to the basket but then kick his right leg forwards as he elevates.

No one can question his shot's effectiveness - he's shooting 40% from three on the year. I've watched the UNC game winner at least 50 times and it goes in every time . But I'm still curious if anyone else has noticed this and knows if the coaching staff is doing anything about changing it. It seems odd to me that a coach's son would have such unconventional form. Do we even have a "shooting form" coach? We seemed to leave Scheyer alone with his quirky sidespin shot, despite how streaky he was.

If it is working do not worry about it. This has been discussed before btw. He shoots really strange but it suits him which is more important than shooting correctly.

[hurleyfor3]

However he's shooting it, it needs not to change.

[CDu]

The key to shooting form is the ability to replicate a good result as much as possible. It doesn't matter what the form is - if it results in a high percentage of makes, it's good form. Rivers' form is far from textbook, and it's not the way you'd teach a young player to shoot (mainly because it's harder to replicate good results that way). But he's made it work for him. No reason to change it now.

[OldPhiKap]

Not sure where to ask this, but -- I assume there's no issue with the ankle swelling, etc. after last night's game?

[jjasper0729]

I've thought all season that he looks like Reggie Miller shooting the ball and not many people can argue with Reggie's results. If it ain't broke, don't fix it is the general rule, although one could argue that once they fixed Felton's "chicken wing" he was much more effective afterward

[phaedrus]

I've thought all season that he looks like Reggie Miller shooting the ball and not many people can argue with Reggie's results. If it ain't broke, don't fix it is the general rule, although one could argue that once they fixed Felton's "chicken wing" he was much more effective afterward

Larry Bird also unapologetically shot the ball with two hands.

[wacobluedevil]

Larry Bird also unapologetically shot the ball with two hands.

Mark Alarie also shot with two hands.

[Kedsy]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it is the general rule, although one could argue that once they fixed Felton's "chicken wing" he was much more effective afterward

Well, except Felton still can't shoot. This year he's shooting 37.6% from the floor, including an anemic 24.8% from 3-point range, and is in danger of losing his job in Portland.

[dukelifer]

Austin's shooting form looks really odd to me. He uses both hands, rather than shooting with one dominant hand and using the other to position the ball. He seems to start with the ball really low, near his chest, and he falls backwards on the release. He also seems to keep his lower body square to the basket but then kick his right leg forwards as he elevates.

No one can question his shot's effectiveness - he's shooting 40% from three on the year. I've watched the UNC game winner at least 50 times and it goes in every time . But I'm still curious if anyone else has noticed this and knows if the coaching staff is doing anything about changing it. It seems odd to me that a coach's son would have such unconventional form. Do we even have a "shooting form" coach? We seemed to leave Scheyer alone with his quirky sidespin shot, despite how streaky he was.

I think it keeps him from being a great stand still shooter- But it works for him when it is off the dribble. As some mentioned- Reggie Miller had a funny looking shot but it worked for him. He perfected it by shooting lots of shots. Now Andre's form is textbook- as beautiful as it gets IMO.

[UrinalCake]

I think it keeps him from being a great stand still shooter- But it works for him when it is off the dribble.

That's funny because I had the exact opposite thought. I think his form lends itself to a set, spot-up shot as his release is kind of slow and he falls backwards as he shoots. I don't see him take too many jump shots off the dribble. I think having a more conventional release point would allow him to shoot over defenders a little better and also get the shot off faster. I don't really buy the argument of it's just how he does it and it's working so don't mess with it. I mean he probably developed this form at a really young age and who's to say he couldn't improve his shot by making some changes? Obviously you wouldn't want to mess with it during the season. Didn't Demarcus Nelson overhaul his shooting form during the summer before his junior year? Maybe not the best example but my point is that it's never too late to make a change.

[strawbs]

DO NOT CHANGE ANYTHING! if it isn't broke, don't try to fix it.
I live in Iowa, and went to the University of Northern Iowa. I don't know if any of you have any idea of who Brooks Mckowen is, but he is the perfect example of why not to mess with your shot. In high school he was an absolute scoring machine. He averaged 35.8 ppg as a senior scoring 1002 pts on the season (a state record). He finished his career with 2831 points (also a state record). His shot was ugly but it went in more often then not.
He went to UNI and was the starting point guard for 4 years starting 117 of 127 games in his career. The coaches had him change his shot and he never really amounted to anything. To be fair he did run the point and and was never the number 1 option on the offense while he was at UNI, but his shooting percentages were terrible.
freshman 37.1 fg 33.6 3pt
sophomore 35.4 fg 30.2 3pt
junior 34.8 fg 26.9 3pt
senior 40.7 fg 31.6 3pt
for his career he shot 37.6 on fg's and 30.8 on 3pt's
Now by no means am I comparing Mckowen to Rivers, but Mckowen was one of the best players in the history of high school basketball, he changed his shot and he was never the same player. I don't think trying to tinker with his form would hurt Rivers as much as someone like Mckowen because Rivers is still an elite player at getting to the rim, but there is no reason for Rivers to change his shot. He's shooting it at 40% from 3 on the year. Like I said before don't change something that isn't broken.

[Newton_14]

That's funny because I had the exact opposite thought. I think his form lends itself to a set, spot-up shot as his release is kind of slow and he falls backwards as he shoots. I don't see him take too many jump shots off the dribble. I think having a more conventional release point would allow him to shoot over defenders a little better and also get the shot off faster. I don't really buy the argument of it's just how he does it and it's working so don't mess with it. I mean he probably developed this form at a really young age and who's to say he couldn't improve his shot by making some changes? Obviously you wouldn't want to mess with it during the season. Didn't Demarcus Nelson overhaul his shooting form during the summer before his junior year? Maybe not the best example but my point is that it's never too late to make a change.

Not trying to be argumentative at all, so please do not take it that way, but he shoots almost all of his 3's off the dribble in my view. He is much better off the dribble than he is as a spot up shooter. When he catches and shoots from a standstill the result is usually bad and he looks uncomfortable to me. He is almost the exact opposite of Andre in that regard. Austin makes many more 3's (including the beautiful dagger against UNC) off the dribble than he does trying to catch and shoot.

In my view, his form is likely due to forcing himself to shoot jumpshots at an early age before his body was strong enough to do it correctly. To compensate for the lack of strength, he had to use the chicken wing combined with a powerful flick of the right wrist to generate enough power to get the ball to the basket. By the time he was strong enough to shoot a jumpshot normally, the form was ingrained and there was just no going back. That's my suspicion anyway.

I don't view his shot as a two handed shot. The right hand is still the last hand on the ball at the release point, it's just that the left hand stays on the ball a nano-second longer than a normal shooter. That is due to needing the left hand to hold on longer for balance due to the chicken wing. If the right elbow was underneath the ball as it should be, the left hand could leave the ball sooner without him losing control of the ball. With his form, if the left hand left sooner there is no way he could keep the ball balance in his right hand.

He still manages to get decent to good rotation on the ball as evidenced by shots that are slightly short still settling into the hoop or kicking off the backboard and in off the bounce. Like others have noted, he shoots a high percentage as is, so it would be dangerous to try to change it. Sort of like Jim Furyk's golf swing. Unconventional but successful and repeatable.

All that said it appears that Duke's staff chooses not to try to change the shooting form with their kids. It seems that way anyway. They left Scheyer's form alone as a recent example. MP3 as another example, has his offhand literally on the very top of the ball. Even moreso than Scheyer did. I would kill to spend 30 minutes with him to try to get him to move that off hand to the proper place, and see if he could shoot it like that, but that is just me. He shoots it the exact same way in warmups every game, so I have to believe that K and Staff's philosophy is to leave the form alone. K is a trillion times more knowledgeable than I, so I would imagine in his infinite wisdom and studies, he determined long ago it best to not attempt to change the shooting form of a college player. I would guess his studies showed it is too late by that age and more harm would come than good if he tried to change them?

[ricks68]

In my view, his form is likely due to forcing himself to shoot jumpshots at an early age before his body was strong enough to do it correctly. To compensate for the lack of strength, he had to use the chicken wing combined with a powerful flick of the right wrist to generate enough power to get the ball to the basket. By the time he was strong enough to shoot a jumpshot normally, the form was ingrained and there was just no going back. That's my suspicion anyway.

That has always been my take, also. The interesting thing I've noticed, however, is that he ends up with an increase in distance from the outstretched arms of taller defenders when he releases the ball due to him falling backwards, resulting in a much more difficult shot to block.

ricks

[UrinalCake]

Not trying to be argumentative at all, so please do not take it that way, but he shoots almost all of his 3's off the dribble in my view. He is much better off the dribble than he is as a spot up shooter.

I think we just have different interpretations of what "off the dribble" means. I think of shooting off the dribble as a player driving towards the basket, stopping and pulling up for a jump shot. Most of Austin's shots IMO come from him having the ball in isolation, dribbling the ball while remaining stationary and surveying the defense, then choosing to shoot. So it's a shot off the dribble in the sense that he is dribbling the ball, but the mechanics of the shot are more like a set shot. He's not moving with the ball or curling around a screen when he shoots.

Regardless, I like your description of his mechanics and the rationale behind it. It seems like having to transfer the ball over over to his right hand during the shot would make his shot less reliable, though as everyone else has stated he's shooting 40% from three so it's clearly working. The other quibble I have is his release point, though in looking at the attached image I guess he does hold the ball pretty high. Just for fun I also attached an image of JJ's release for comparison.

Rivers.jpg
redick.jpg

[Newton_14]

I think we just have different interpretations of what "off the dribble" means. I think of shooting off the dribble as a player driving towards the basket, stopping and pulling up for a jump shot. Most of Austin's shots IMO come from him having the ball in isolation, dribbling the ball while remaining stationary and surveying the defense, then choosing to shoot. So it's a shot off the dribble in the sense that he is dribbling the ball, but the mechanics of the shot are more like a set shot. He's not moving with the ball or curling around a screen when he shoots.

Regardless, I like your description of his mechanics and the rationale behind it. It seems like having to transfer the ball over over to his right hand during the shot would make his shot less reliable, though as everyone else has stated he's shooting 40% from three so it's clearly working. The other quibble I have is his release point, though in looking at the attached image I guess he does hold the ball pretty high. Just for fun I also attached an image of JJ's release for comparison.

Rivers.jpg
redick.jpg

Ah, I see what you mean now. So, yes, we agree. Perhaps it's better to say he isn't a good "catch and shoot guy". He is stationary but dribbling on most of his 3's. I refer to that as "off the dribble", but you and Greybeard refer to it as a stationary set shot.

Peace!

[dukelifer]

Ah, I see what you mean now. So, yes, we agree. Perhaps it's better to say he isn't a good "catch and shoot guy". He is stationary but dribbling on most of his 3's. I refer to that as "off the dribble", but you and Greybeard refer to it as a stationary set shot.

Peace!

I agree. When I said off the dribble, I meant to distinguish from catch and shoot. Austin does get his feet set and is stationary.

[greybeard]

Not trying to be argumentative at all, so please do not take it that way, but he shoots almost all of his 3's off the dribble in my view. He is much better off the dribble than he is as a spot up shooter. When he catches and shoots from a standstill the result is usually bad and he looks uncomfortable to me. He is almost the exact opposite of Andre in that regard. Austin makes many more 3's (including the beautiful dagger against UNC) off the dribble than he does trying to catch and shoot.

Not so. Austin's long three are off a standstill and deadly. Even "the shot" in UNC game was practical equivolent of stanstill, dribbling and moving feet but going nowhere, just freeezing Zeller

In my view, his form is likely due to forcing himself to shoot jumpshots at an early age before his body was strong enough to do it correctly. To compensate for the lack of strength, he had to use the chicken wing combined with a powerful flick of the right wrist to generate enough power to get the ball to the basket. By the time he was strong enough to shoot a jumpshot normally, the form was ingrained and there was just no going back. That's my suspicion anyway.

Possible, but unlikely. Holding the ball with left hand on side, thumb slightly behind, extending and pronating arm through the shot is a real effective way of shooting long, aka Bill Bradley. That way of holding the ball permits real softness in hands and chest, and a soft shot with real good accuracy--shooters of old who used two hand set shots (a much different shot than Rivers, were pretty darn accurate.)

Rivers' style draws defender closer which makes him easier to beat And Rivers really elevates off a standstill shot, bringing the ball slightly above forehead level, so in reality not an easy shot to block. Also holding the ball in that manner and starting relatively low, chest level, makes first step ball extension, push it and long stride that much quicker.

I don't view his shot as a two handed shot. The right hand is still the last hand on the ball at the release point, it's just that the left hand stays on the ball a nano-second longer than a normal shooter. That is due to needing the left hand to hold on longer for balance due to the chicken wing. If the right elbow was underneath the ball as it should be, the left hand could leave the ball sooner without him losing control of the ball. With his form, if the left hand left sooner there is no way he could keep the ball balance in his right hand.

I agree that not a traditional two hand shot and that the major force comes through e exension of t ight arm and protion of the right hand which is much farther behind th ball than the left. However, the left arm extends and the hand releases also, which helps with direction, and provides greater range. I don't think holding the ball that way and utilizing the left is made necessary by the flying elbow, but rather might cause it. The guiding hand helping in this fasion produces a soft shot high arching sot and helps with distance control from range. The shot can be taken with hands the same place and functioning the same with the elbows dropping straight down.

In the begining, everyone has their own style, some appear more effective and others try to figure out how they ca make that configuration work, eying everything about the shooter[s] he wants to emulate. It becomes a popular way of shooting. The experts take over and it becomes doctrine--that is,it is "taugt as the best way to shoot and everyone shall shoot that way.

In golf, pro golfers historically have all reached the same position immediately before and through impact and then follow through. How they got there used to be another story. Nowadays, they all look the same. It's just the way norms, best practices, evolve into doctrine, that is, THE way it should be done. It produces results among the greatest number of shooters but is rather boring.

By the way, Dre has a pretty unusual way of shooting a three ball--he stands at the basket with his right side much closer to the basket than his left, with his right leg ending up parellel or in front of his left, and his body facing left. Curry comjes pretty close to that style also. anding sideways or nearly so to the rim has its advantages. It lines the shoulders on a direct line to the basket, with next to no torque in delivering theshot. Also there is something about how that stance puts a lot of body and momentum along that line, much more than a face-up would.

He still manages to get decent to good rotation on the ball as evidenced by shots that are slightly short still settling into the hoop or kicking off the backboard and in off the bounce. Like others have noted, he shoots a high percentage as is, so it would be dangerous to try to change it. Sort of like Jim Furyk's golf swing. Unconventional but successful and repeatable.

All that said it appears that Duke's staff chooses not to try to change the shooting form with their kids. It seems that way anyway. They left Scheyer's form alone as a recent example. MP3 as another example, has his offhand literally on the very top of the ball. Even moreso than Scheyer did. I would kill to spend 30 minutes with him to try to get him to move that off hand to the proper place, and see if he could shoot it like that, but that is just me. He shoots it the exact same way in warmups every game, so I have to believe that K and Staff's philosophy is to leave the form alone. K is a trillion times more knowledgeable than I, so I would imagine in his infinite wisdom and studies, he determined long ago it best to not attempt to change the shooting form of a college player. I would guess his studies showed it is too late by that age and more harm would come than good if he tried to change them?

I agree, bur Rivers' shooting style might be a real impediment to a mid-rane game, whih we never see frm him, in contras to ost all big time gards.

[UrinalCake]

I agree, bur Rivers' shooting style might be a real impediment to a mid-range game, which we never see from him, in contras to most all big time guards.

Is it fair to nitpick that his form might also be an impediment to his free throw shooting?