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  1. #101
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Philadelphia
    I wanted to send kudos to BluDvlsN1 for correctly suggesting that our big men might get in foul trouble this game. I didn't really see it coming that way, but he/she was certainly correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by hq2 View Post
    Another one of those frustrating "Why can't you do this more often?" Andre games, where we again see his
    incredible shooting ability, which we probably won't see for another few games. If only he could be more
    consistently good....
    Personally, I find it more pleasant to simply enjoy these great performances when they happen. Why should him playing such a great game be a source of frustration?

    I didn't say anything before the game because I didn't want to jinx it, but for some reason I had a strong feeling that Andre was going to light it up tonight. Glad I was right, and not frustrated at all.

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    greater New Orleans area

    its official

    Seriously think that was one of the worst officiated games I have seen in a very long time...thought both teams were playing hard and the battle was just a pleasure to watch, except for the officiating. I would guess I completely disagreed with half the calls that were made and thought the officiating team was inconsistent in the extreme...the play when ARs leg was rolled up was a rediculous no call, as was the play when his foot was stepped on and FSU got a run out. NCAA should be embarassed by that stuff. Mason, I think it was his second foul, was rung up essentially for bringing the ball up with both hands from his waste to his shoulders, feet didn't move, upper body didn't move, FSU player simply faked the official into a call. There were several moving screens on both sides, wild no call on FSU player sliding on the floor with the ball and essentially rolling on the ground with it while trying to pass it off...Sorry, I really don't see how that crew rises above the level of a high school officiating team. There are a couple of folks there who should probably not be officiating college Bball.

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Rougemont Nebulae
    Glad Teddy V called the game. The uneven officiating forced Duke to be more resilient and Duke must be prepared to make adjustments which is half the battle of "survive and advance" basketball. And we're apt to see Teddy V again in the tourney as he called the 2010 NC game. That worked out pretty well.

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Winston-Salem
    Quote Originally Posted by Kfanarmy View Post
    Seriously think that was one of the worst officiated games I have seen in a very long time...
    The one play that really bothered me was the trip on Austin as it seemed so obvious and out in the open, as well as occurring right in front of the ref. I think that it eventually balances out, and even if it doesn't, at the end of the day I think it said more about the team's ability to adjust and play despite foul problems. Mason and Miles were able to go quite an extended period in the second half without picking any up/fouling out, and I think that at the end of the day that's going to be extremely key for acc/ncaa tourney runs. Fouls will pile up at some point, and the ability of the guards to pick up the offensive slack was huge.

    I'll be the first to admit I was as frustrated and uninterested in this team as I've ever been even 6 weeks ago, and they have just won me over. As they believe in themselves and build that confidence, and belief they can always win...it's really just spilled over to me as well.

    Now let's take down the turkeys.
    Duke '03
    Tent 1 '99/'00

  5. #105
    I really wish we would stop talking about the officiating because we sound like a bunch of mooU and cryalina fans when we do. The fact of the matter is that every official in every sport is a human and they are going to make mistakes. In MLB half of the called strikes are balls and half of the called balls are strikes (this is evident with the new technology used by the broadcasting companies that use computer technology to show exactly where the ball crosses the plate). In the NFL and college football there have been dozens of cases where the on-field official AND the replay official got it wrong even after reviewing the play in slow motion, “super slow-motion”, and from 10 different angles. Heck, it is a well known fact that holding occurs on both the offensive and defensive line on every single play in every single game of football, but the officials only call a small percentage of them. Additionally, everyone knows that both college and NBA officials “rarely” blow the whistle in the waning seconds of a game. Even in tennis the chair umpire has over-ruled the “electronic eye” on numerous occasions. Unless we want our football, basketball, tennis, baseball, lacrosse, field hockey, etc., etc., etc., to call their own penalties (like golf), we need to accept the fact that officials will call a game loose for 2 minutes, then call a game tight for another 2, them go back to calling it loose, then make calls based on the player’s “reputation”, then blow a couple of calls, and them miss a couple of calls, and then just completely guess at a couple of more. It is a fact of every sport, based on human nature (even when humans have to interpret slow-motion video) that there are going to be bad calls, and missed calls, and every fan that complains about it, especially after a victory, sound like a bunch of children. We all know that when a call comes down to 50/50 between Duke and the opposing team, we are going to take the side of Duke and the opposing fans are going to take the side of their team. Heck, we have all experienced the joy of having a smile on our face when our team, be it Duke Basketball or any other college or pro team, “got away with one”, and we never talk about those calls, so please let’s not talk about the ones we didn’t get also. Every good coach and player understands this, and they will all say that overcoming poor officiating is a part of the game, JUST LIKE TONIGHT !!!!! It is only when the fans complain do we look like a bunch of children (or mooU and cryalina fans) and I refuse to do that.

  6. #106
    I haven't been through the entire thread. Perhaps this has been brought up previously. Far be it from me to question Coach K. However here goes. With our three bigs in serious foul trouble, I kept wondering why we didn't just try a little zone, if for no other reason to see what sort of effect it might have. I know Coack K hates zone. I also know that he has albeit very rarely occasionally tried it. Just musing.

  7. #107
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    raleigh
    for some resson teddy reminds me of the marine corps sargent in Aliens....


    this is one of the funniest posts from over on IC



    tarheelnva2
    All-American
    3230 posts this site
    Posted: Yesterday 9:43 PM
    Re: Official I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. @ FSU Discussion/Prediction/Game Thead


    -
    I look at it this way, they wanted to beat us worse than they wanted to beat even I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.. That's my story and I'll stick to it. The crowd was MUCH louder at our game, even at tip-off. Case closed.
    "Either we're going down, or they are....... Kirk out!"

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    raleigh
    "Either we're going down, or they are....... Kirk out!"

  9. #109
    well, we were certainly the beneficiaries of some questionable calls against UNC and, to a lesser degree, NC State. Sometimes you're the pigeon and sometimes you're the statue. Nevertheless, a great gutty performance to build a lead and hold it. That was some fantastic clutch shooting all game and, as many have said, Dawkins was on fire.

    I noticed down the stretch, though, that Dawkins was on the bench with TT, Austin, and Seth in the game. Any reason? For defensive purposes?
    My Quick Smells Like French Toast.

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Inman, SC & Melbourne Beach, FL
    Several have made the point that Dawkins was "on" tonight, and of course we needed that. But I was noticing during the game that it seemed that on the shots that he made, he didn't have to dribble at all. On the shots that he didn't make, he took one or more dribbles. So, it would seem the plan is to get him ball in a position where he doean't have to dribble. Of course, Andre has to be ready to receive the ball and step into his shot, which was mostly the case tonight.

  11. #111
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    Reffing and terping

    Quote Originally Posted by ffward View Post
    I really wish we would stop talking about the officiating because we sound like a bunch of mooU and cryalina fans when we do. The fact of the matter is that every official in every sport is a human and they are going to make mistakes. In MLB half of the called strikes are balls and half of the called balls are strikes (this is evident with the new technology used by the broadcasting companies that use computer technology to show exactly where the ball crosses the plate). In the NFL and college football there have been dozens of cases where the on-field official AND the replay official got it wrong even after reviewing the play in slow motion, “super slow-motion”, and from 10 different angles. Heck, it is a well known fact that holding occurs on both the offensive and defensive line on every single play in every single game of football, but the officials only call a small percentage of them. Additionally, everyone knows that both college and NBA officials “rarely” blow the whistle in the waning seconds of a game. Even in tennis the chair umpire has over-ruled the “electronic eye” on numerous occasions. Unless we want our football, basketball, tennis, baseball, lacrosse, field hockey, etc., etc., etc., to call their own penalties (like golf), we need to accept the fact that officials will call a game loose for 2 minutes, then call a game tight for another 2, them go back to calling it loose, then make calls based on the player’s “reputation”, then blow a couple of calls, and them miss a couple of calls, and then just completely guess at a couple of more. It is a fact of every sport, based on human nature (even when humans have to interpret slow-motion video) that there are going to be bad calls, and missed calls, and every fan that complains about it, especially after a victory, sound like a bunch of children. We all know that when a call comes down to 50/50 between Duke and the opposing team, we are going to take the side of Duke and the opposing fans are going to take the side of their team. Heck, we have all experienced the joy of having a smile on our face when our team, be it Duke Basketball or any other college or pro team, “got away with one”, and we never talk about those calls, so please let’s not talk about the ones we didn’t get also. Every good coach and player understands this, and they will all say that overcoming poor officiating is a part of the game, JUST LIKE TONIGHT !!!!! It is only when the fans complain do we look like a bunch of children (or mooU and cryalina fans) and I refuse to do that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I don't think you can evaluate refs by looking at individual plays. They blow calls for both sides, but they don't do it on purpose so sometimes it doesn't entirely even out.

    My issue with the reffing tonight was it was somewhat inconsistent. When a game is as physical as this one was, if the officiating is inconsistent the players don't know how much contact is permissible and they can end up in foul trouble if they guess wrong. Tonight there were several plays that looked the same but were called differently, and I think that's something the refs should do better. But in my opinion there's just no point in complaining about a particular blown call (like the trip on Austin or James's uncalled goaltend, etc, etc), or saying the officials were terrible. It's a really tough job and frankly even tonight they got most of them right.
    Both of you are absolutely right!

    There's really no point in getting frustrated with the refereeing. Referees are human and they have a tough job. In my entire life (I'm 54 and have seen a lot of sporting events), I've only seen one game in which the referee did not miss a single call. (It was a recreational soccer game with a bunch of seventh grade boys. The referee was the coordinator of referees for the league.)

    Try refereeing a game yourself some time and you'll learn to appreciate more what referees do. It's a ridiculously hard thing to do, even in relatively easy sports. Basketball has to be one of the hardest.

    If you want to understand more about the mindset of referees, I recommend that you read part of a book that came out a year or two ago, called Scorecasting. It had a good chapter or two on the biases of referees, particularly in the NBA and major-league baseball.

    Having said all this, I still get frustrated watching the games.

  12. #112

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by mgtr View Post
    Several have made the point that Dawkins was "on" tonight, and of course we needed that. But I was noticing during the game that it seemed that on the shots that he made, he didn't have to dribble at all. On the shots that he didn't make, he took one or more dribbles. So, it would seem the plan is to get him ball in a position where he doean't have to dribble. Of course, Andre has to be ready to receive the ball and step into his shot, which was mostly the case tonight.
    I'd like to see some stats to prove what I think I see - and that is, in some games Andre just doesn't get
    the ball often enough to have a great shooting night. Seems like (and maybe I only think this because
    you men know more than I so often) some people playing PG don't pass to him when he's over in his
    spot open open open.

  13. #113
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by weezie View Post
    If you're not kidding me I'm talking about when Ryan was inbounding towards the end of 2nd half under basket and the fsu defender ran outside the line and between Ryan and Tyler before/just as the ball was inbounded. Seriously. I've never seen it before.
    I think the rule is that if you are guarding the inbounder, it is a technical if you reach across and touch the inbounder. You also have to stay in-bounds. I recall the play you're describing (I think) and the guy who went out of bounds was chasing after someone else. Refs must not have thought it was an attempt to guard the inbounder.

    Perhaps all of this is wrong, though -- someone will no doubt correct me if it is.
    Roy: what did he know, and when did he know it?

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    It's a really tough job and frankly even tonight they got most of them right.
    Agreed. But I sure wish "most" meant 99.9% rather than 62%.

  15. #115

    Love the depth

    The depth on this year's team is phenomenal. Two starters with 41 minutes between them score 1 point each, and yet we win a tough game on the road. Doubt that's happened very often. The ability to withstand foul trouble and ineffective play with "reserves" is huge.

  16. #116
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Colorado Springs, Colorado

    Props to K

    For the last 30 years, we've grown accustomed to winning these type games, especially hard fought, on the road tests where it seems Duke just wills itself to victory. That comes from the top. Yes, we seem to constantly have guys that possess K's same tenacity, but he is the staple.

    One of the great character traits of K's coaching that was on display last night was the trust he has in his players and their freedom to push past their ceiling because of the environment he creates. Andre is able to come in and just go "Bootsy" because he knows K isn't going to yank him if he misses his first 2. Andre has ice in his veins because he knows K has his back, and I love that...I don't know that I've ever seen a duke player shoot out of fear. We take confidant shots.

    A second trait on display last night was K's ability to adjust to the season situation or game situation, minimizing weaknesses and maximizing strengths. Our bigs got in foul trouble and he is able to adjust the game plan and just go bombs away with Kelly, Austin, Dre and to a limited sense Seth.

    He's just the absolute best and we are lucky to even be fans who can appreciate his greatness...

  17. #117
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    raleigh
    because K has been dabbling in hip-hop beat making and remixing, i thought it only appropriate that i comment on his coaching...

    his use of the plums, kelly and josh has been brilliant.......during games, i question some of the substitutions at critical times and then later look back to see the sheer genius of the moves.....

    then i go back to hip-hop and teaching drummers how to keep time.....
    "Either we're going down, or they are....... Kirk out!"

  18. #118
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by AsiaMinor View Post
    I'd like to see some stats to prove what I think I see - and that is, in some games Andre just doesn't get
    the ball often enough to have a great shooting night. Seems like (and maybe I only think this because
    you men know more than I so often) some people playing PG don't pass to him when he's over in his
    spot open open open.
    I think the main issue with Andre is how focused he is at working hard to get open. Opponents know he can shoot and will not leave him open, so he has to use screens and work really hard to get free. Some games he does, some games he seems disinterested. Well, deferential is probably a better word than disinterested. But he does not work consistently hard each game, all game to get open. That's the issue in my opinion.

  19. #119
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by MattC09 View Post
    As for our dear Teddy Valentine, he is probably my least favorite referee around. He seems to be far more into the show than he is the game. I referee some high school basketball and have been told repeatedly to "sell your call" because it makes your job easier if you look like you know what you're doing. Valentine tries to sell every call. At times, it seems he makes a call just to see how well he can sell it to the crowd, coaches and players.

    In the Kentucky-Miss St game, he called a foul on Mississippi State under their own basket on a rebound. He had danced over to the table demonstrably reporting the foul but never managed to see who was fouled. After reporting it, there was a discussion between the refs and players over who should be at the line Davis or Kidd-Gilchrist. Davis was at the line and the refs appeared happy with that until Dee Bost pointed out it should be Kidd-Gilchrist. If he hadn't been so concerned with his dramatic mechanics, he could have avoided the whole situation.
    LOL....I am rewatching the game this morning and there is a similar moment with 8:41 left in the second half. It is fun slowing the game down on the DVR and looking at all of the different reactions taking place.

    FSU has just closed it to 5, K has just burned a timeout and the building is going nuts. Curry drives to the hoop (and it is hard to know if there was a foul from the TV angle), when Teddy V swoops in from the baseline to call Curry for an offensive foul for appearing(?) to lower his shoulder into Peterson. Teddy does his patented 3 whistle call and then starts pumping his right arm up and down while strutting to the scorer's table. I am not sure if he was doing a judo chop or the tomahawk chop with his right arm, but he would have fit in at a Braves' game, the FSU student section, or at your local dojo. His jig over to the table isn't quite Frank Drebin behind homeplate in the Naked Gun, but it is from the same vein.

    Teddy's little show has taken place right in front of the Duke bench, so the camera stays on the coaching staff. K leans back and mutters "****ing bullcrap" while Collins leans close to K, puts his hand over him mouth and says "makeup call", Wojo eyes the Teddy V shuffle like a passing motorist eyes a horrific car wreck and then looks away.

    Now, while Teddy was doing the Valentine Shuffle and basking in the crowd's eruption, he forgets who the call was on. He prioritizes the act of the call and reports that "20" had committed the foul, however, Dawkins is on the bench. The game is held up for a second while the zebras convene and let the scorers' table know that it was "30", Curry, who had committed the foul.

    Anyway, it was interesting to hear you talk about "selling the call". I never understood why some of these guys perform dance moves when they make a call, especially on offensive fouls. But selling the call could definitely provide a possible explanation on what the heck they are doing.

  20. #120
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh
    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Dingleberry View Post
    LOL....I am rewatching the game this morning and there is a similar moment with 8:41 left in the second half. It is fun slowing the game down on the DVR and looking at all of the different reactions taking place.

    FSU has just closed it to 5, K has just burned a timeout and the building is going nuts. Curry drives to the hoop (and it is hard to know if there was a foul from the TV angle), when Teddy V swoops in from the baseline to call Curry for an offensive foul for appearing(?) to lower his shoulder into Peterson. Teddy does his patented 3 whistle call and then starts pumping his right arm up and down while strutting to the scorer's table. I am not sure if he was doing a judo chop or the tomahawk chop with his right arm, but he would have fit in at a Braves' game, the FSU student section, or at your local dojo. His jig over to the table isn't quite Frank Drebin behind homeplate in the Naked Gun, but it is from the same vein.

    Teddy's little show has taken place right in front of the Duke bench, so the camera stays on the coaching staff. K leans back and mutters "****ing bullcrap" while Collins leans close to K, puts his hand over him mouth and says "makeup call", Wojo eyes the Teddy V shuffle like a passing motorist eyes a horrific car wreck and then looks away.

    Now, while Teddy was doing the Valentine Shuffle and basking in the crowd's eruption, he forgets who the call was on. He prioritizes the act of the call and reports that "20" had committed the foul, however, Dawkins is on the bench. The game is held up for a second while the zebras convene and let the scorers' table know that it was "30", Curry, who had committed the foul.

    Anyway, it was interesting to hear you talk about "selling the call". I never understood why some of these guys perform dance moves when they make a call, especially on offensive fouls. But selling the call could definitely provide a possible explanation on what the heck they are doing.
    Somewhere out there, Daniel Ewing and Shavlik Randolph have wide grins on their faces that they were not called for phantom fouls on that play. What a buffoon!
    Not leaving until the game is over.

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