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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    Can I nominate the 1986 NBA draft first round?

    That class had so many cautionary tales it's unbelievable. Len Bias, Chris Washburn, William Bedford, Roy Tarpley, Dwayne "Pearl" Washington, Walter Berry, John Williams (food can be an addiction). Drugs, alcohol, attitude issues.

    Sabonis was in that class to, so he leads the injury category. Of course, he was already damaged goods by then. Our own Johnny Dawkins was starting to play at an all-star level in 1990 when he blew out a knee. Came back but never got it all back. A knee injury ended Mark Alarie's career prematurely. Same with Kenny Walker.

    Brad Daugherty, the first pick of the draft, was an all-star but back problems ended his career early.

    Others, like Brad Sellers and Maurice Martin just weren't that good.

    Not all flops, of course. Chuck Person, Dell Curry, Ron Sellers, Scott Skiles.

    Ironically, the second round turned out quite well. Mark Price, Dennis Rodman, Jeff Hornacek, Nate McMillan, Kevin Duckworth and Johnny Newman all leveraged second-round status into really good pro careers.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by luvdahops View Post
    I saw both Jordan and Lewis play a lot. One great, memorable defensive game does not make someone an elite defender. Lots of guys got up for playing MJ, and had career games against him here and there. Do you seriously believe that Lewis was an elite defender? If so, is it based on something more than a four block game against Jordan?

    Interesting that you bring up Wade. He is a completely different sort of player; while he doesn't shoot 3s well either, D-Wade has always attacked the basket relentlessly, averaging 9.0 FTAs per game for his career with 28% of his TP from the line. His FTAs per game have come down a bit with LeBron at his side, but even this year, with that factor along with injuries and reduced minutes, he is getting to the line 6.7x per game, with 24% of points on FTs. Lewis's career highs were 4.7 FTAs per game and 20% of points from FTs.

    I don't base my arguments on stats - I use stats to back up what I see with my eyes. You might want to try it sometime.

    In terms of your last line, it's a decent zinger. I mean, based on your arguments, I had been unsure you ever actually watched Lewis play. But you claim you have, and you know what? I'll take your word on it.

    I wasn't trying to say Lewis was the same sort of player as Wade, right? I was just saying, you can't pick out the things a guy doesn't necessarily do to completely tear him down. Lewis was an All-Star player just entering his prime with the obvious potential to become elite, he was leading his team to the playoffs, and he'd just been named captain of a storied franchise. He even tripled his three-pointers during his final year, albeit only to 14, but it leads me to believe there was perhaps room to grow there. If you compare him or anyone else to Bird, they're going to come up short. He wasn't like on the level of a Big O or Jerry West, a guy like that, but he seems like a player who was on the verge of becoming a perennial All-Star. As such, I still feel you're selling him short just for the heck of it. But I've enjoyed a spirited debate regardless.

    You do bring up a good point. Is Lewis romanticized in Boston? He absolutely is, and understandably so. But so is Len Bias, who you're convinced would have been elite. Listen, I agree, I've always thought Bias would have been great in the NBA like he was in college. But he played zero professional games, so we'll just never know. That 30 for 30 on Bias was so well done, and so sad.

    And hey, I do have to admire anyone's determination who was shown visual evidence Lewis had defensive chops and still stuck to the same obsolete talking point. You got chutzpah, my dude! It's all good in the hood as far as I'm concerned.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Toledo
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner
    Not all flops, of course. Chuck Person, Dell Curry, Ron Sellers, Scott Skiles.
    Ah, The Rifleman. Person was an outstanding shooter when enjoying "one of those nights." As a fervent Indiana Pacers fan growing up, the almost 40 points Person dropped on Larry Bird and Boston for a Pacer win in the Garden in the 1991 Playoffs is a very fond memory. Of course, that was also the year Bird courageously battled a back injury that had left him immobile in the first half in Game 5 to score 32 and send The Rifleman back to his corps.

    And I think that Dell guy knew a thing or two about shooting.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Toledo
    *For what it's worth, I just checked the box score for the decisive Game 5 between Boston and Indiana during the 1991 First Round and Reggie Lewis supplemented Larry Legend's gutsy 32 with 22 points, 4 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 steals and 1 block. Not bad for a Game 5 in the Garden.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Rosenrosen View Post
    Bobby Hurley - god I wanted to see him become an all star. I remember all the favorable comments he got from pros when he practiced/scrimmaged with I think the US national teams many, many moons ago. Some story I think about Hurley leading the B team to a win against the A team and then the guys sticking Jordan on Hurley to shut him down. Someone please correct me if I'm getting this all wrong. Really vague memories here.
    Let's also not forget that his team beat down that Western University team with Shaq, Penny, AND Matt Nover.

    I still have my Hurley - King's jersey. Might have to break that one out for the VaTech game.
    "Something in my vicinity is Carolina blue and this offends me." - HPR

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    Quote Originally Posted by Starter View Post
    In terms of your last line, it's a decent zinger. I mean, based on your arguments, I had been unsure you ever actually watched Lewis play. But you claim you have, and you know what? I'll take your word on it.

    I wasn't trying to say Lewis was the same sort of player as Wade, right? I was just saying, you can't pick out the things a guy doesn't necessarily do to completely tear him down. Lewis was an All-Star player just entering his prime with the obvious potential to become elite, he was leading his team to the playoffs, and he'd just been named captain of a storied franchise. He even tripled his three-pointers during his final year, albeit only to 14, but it leads me to believe there was perhaps room to grow there. If you compare him or anyone else to Bird, they're going to come up short. He wasn't like on the level of a Big O or Jerry West, a guy like that, but he seems like a player who was on the verge of becoming a perennial All-Star. As such, I still feel you're selling him short just for the heck of it. But I've enjoyed a spirited debate regardless.

    You do bring up a good point. Is Lewis romanticized in Boston? He absolutely is, and understandably so. But so is Len Bias, who you're convinced would have been elite. Listen, I agree, I've always thought Bias would have been great in the NBA like he was in college. But he played zero professional games, so we'll just never know. That 30 for 30 on Bias was so well done, and so sad.

    And hey, I do have to admire anyone's determination who was shown visual evidence Lewis had defensive chops and still stuck to the same obsolete talking point. You got chutzpah, my dude! It's all good in the hood as far as I'm concerned.
    I'm not selling Lewis short just for the heck of it. I was trying to make a fairly subtle argument that, as fine a player as he was, I don't think he was headed for superstar/perennial All-Star/genuine franchise cornerstone status. Instead, I think he was pretty close to having hit his ceiling and/or maxed out his potential. Again, I think the numbers support this point of view:

    90-91: Celtics go 56-26, are eliminated by Pistons in 2nd Round; Bird plays 60 games, McHale 68; Lewis averages 18.7ppg, 5.2rpg and 2.5apg
    91-92: Celtics go 51-31, are eliminated by Pacers in 2nd Round; Bird plays 45 games, McHale 56; Lewis averages 20.8ppg, 4.8rpg and 2.3apg
    92-93: Celtics go 48-34, are eliminated by Hornets in 1st Round; Bird retired, McHale just 35 games; Lewis averages 20.8ppg, 4.3rpg and 3.7apg

    As for Lewis vs Bias, I had the good fortune to see the latter (and Jordan) play live as an undergrad in Cameron. Bias was an absolute athletic freak, probably more explosive than Jordan and with the same competitive ferocity. His baselined turnaround J was simply unstoppable (I doubt Manute Bol could have blocked it with a running start). Of course we'll never know for sure, but it is easy to envision Bias refining his game alongside Bird and Co and then gradually taking the mantle from them to keep the Celtics at an elite level through the 90s. Lewis was just not in the same league athletically or from a raw talent standpoint - not even close, really.

    Also, FWIW, still not sure what that video proves beyond the fact that Lewis had a pretty remarkable defensive game that night. It hardly supports the notion that he was an elite defender night-in and night-out, or regularly gave Jordan a lot of trouble.

  7. #47
    larry johnson.

    grandmama was a badass before he went down with a bad back.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    As for Lewis vs Bias, I had the good fortune to see the latter (and Jordan) play live as an undergrad in Cameron. Bias was an absolute athletic freak, probably more explosive than Jordan and with the same competitive ferocity. His baselined turnaround J was simply unstoppable (I doubt Manute Bol could have blocked it with a running start). Of course we'll never know for sure, but it is easy to envision Bias refining his game alongside Bird and Co and then gradually taking the mantle from them to keep the Celtics at an elite level through the 90s. Lewis was just not in the same league athletically or from a raw talent standpoint - not even close, really.
    Bias would have been a great pro, no doubt about it. He was incredible leaper, and had an unblockable high arcing jumper which he could get off on anyone.
    I specifically used to watch Maryland games to see him in '86; in a year with Johnny Dawkins, Chris Washburn, Brad Daugherty, Olden Polynice, Mark Price,
    Tom Hammonds, John Salley, Mark Alarie, Danny Ferry, Kenny Smith, and Elden Campbell (I think, may have been later), he was head and shoulders (sorry Johnny D)
    the best player in the ACC. I remember watching him drop 40 on Duke; he just jumped right over 'em like they weren't even there. I'd say the Celtics would
    have gotten at least one ('87) and maybe two ('88) more titles if he had lived. Truly sad when he died.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by luvdahops View Post
    I'm not selling Lewis short just for the heck of it. I was trying to make a fairly subtle argument that, as fine a player as he was, I don't think he was headed for superstar/perennial All-Star/genuine franchise cornerstone status. Instead, I think he was pretty close to having hit his ceiling and/or maxed out his potential. Again, I think the numbers support this point of view:

    90-91: Celtics go 56-26, are eliminated by Pistons in 2nd Round; Bird plays 60 games, McHale 68; Lewis averages 18.7ppg, 5.2rpg and 2.5apg
    91-92: Celtics go 51-31, are eliminated by Pacers in 2nd Round; Bird plays 45 games, McHale 56; Lewis averages 20.8ppg, 4.8rpg and 2.3apg
    92-93: Celtics go 48-34, are eliminated by Hornets in 1st Round; Bird retired, McHale just 35 games; Lewis averages 20.8ppg, 4.3rpg and 3.7apg

    As for Lewis vs Bias, I had the good fortune to see the latter (and Jordan) play live as an undergrad in Cameron. Bias was an absolute athletic freak, probably more explosive than Jordan and with the same competitive ferocity. His baselined turnaround J was simply unstoppable (I doubt Manute Bol could have blocked it with a running start). Of course we'll never know for sure, but it is easy to envision Bias refining his game alongside Bird and Co and then gradually taking the mantle from them to keep the Celtics at an elite level through the 90s. Lewis was just not in the same league athletically or from a raw talent standpoint - not even close, really.

    Also, FWIW, still not sure what that video proves beyond the fact that Lewis had a pretty remarkable defensive game that night. It hardly supports the notion that he was an elite defender night-in and night-out, or regularly gave Jordan a lot of trouble.
    Now we're talking. I think you have a relatively well-reasoned argument, though I don't think the stat lines you put up there show a whole lot, to be honest. Lewis wasn't singlehandedly responsible for wins and losses, though he was coming into his own on playoff teams, and it's not like those numbers you posted were weak. Combine those with the fact that he was 27 and entering his athletic peak and... we're going in circles.

    In terms of his defense, he had a strong reputation for being a very good defensive player (I'm not making that up), and his numbers hold up -- 1.4 steals and a block a game from a 2/3 is pretty strong. The game he blocked a prime Jordan four times -- which, in itself, is pretty amazing -- was obviously not the only good defensive game he had in his career. Though that clear ability and reputation to at least be able to hassle Jordan (really, all you can ask for) can't help but be indicative of what he was capable of. He was an above-average athlete with long arms, a great recipe.

    If you look, Lewis' numbers compare pretty favorably to another Reggie through their age 22 season -- Reggie Miller. Miller hit threes, Lewis blocked shots, but other than that they were honestly very similar. Miller, obviously, wasn't a superstar on the level of Bird. But he was a very good, some might say great, player on winning teams. Given those 12 extra seasons, who's to say Lewis couldn't have done the same? That, we can actually probably agree on. And that level of play is nothing to sneeze at. I still think he had the tools to be great, you don't, and I would think it's ok we part there, regardless of what we each recall about his defense, the number of shots he needed, whatever. After all, was Reggie Miller great? Probably depends on who you ask. (As a Knicks fan, I'd begrudgingly say yes.)

    That's awesome you got to see Bias in person. Such a shame what happened there. Imagine the course of NBA history had Bias made it to the league at anywhere near the level everyone believed he could have played at.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by fgb View Post
    larry johnson.

    grandmama was a badass before he went down with a bad back.
    Just to break up the great Reggie Lewis debate...

    What I loved about LJ was how he modified his game and assimilated himself as a much different but still effective player after his back injury relegated him below the rim. His outside shot became a weapon, he worked hard at his perimeter defense and Jeff Van Gundy cited him as one of his favorite players he's coached. High praise, considering the source. Hard to believe he was forced to retire at just 32.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Roxboro, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Starter View Post
    Just to break up the great Reggie Lewis debate...
    I apologize in advance for going back to it, but I am curious in how you both would compare Reggie Lewis to Paul Pierce. Pierce was being discussed on the radio last week because he moved to 2nd all-time in scoring for the Boston franchise. He may actually be #1 by the time he retires. However, he wasn't even in the starting 5 for Boston greats according to the radio personalities. Without looking up the stats, it seemed like Reggie Lewis was a similar player in that they both scored a lot of points and did several other things well. What is the perception of how Lewis would have stacked up to Pierce had he played the same number of years?

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by nocilla View Post
    I apologize in advance for going back to it, but I am curious in how you both would compare Reggie Lewis to Paul Pierce. Pierce was being discussed on the radio last week because he moved to 2nd all-time in scoring for the Boston franchise. He may actually be #1 by the time he retires. However, he wasn't even in the starting 5 for Boston greats according to the radio personalities. Without looking up the stats, it seemed like Reggie Lewis was a similar player in that they both scored a lot of points and did several other things well. What is the perception of how Lewis would have stacked up to Pierce had he played the same number of years?
    I think Pierce probably would have ended up better regardless, but I have a high opinion of him. It's hard to say since we didn't get to see what Lewis would have become, or what teams they'd have put around him. Pierce had the benefit of playing on some championship-caliber Celtics teams, richly deserved after years of playing on squads even Pierce couldn't help. He scored 27 ppg in 2005-06 for a team that won 32 games, but the rest of that team was just brutal. Even the Antoine Walker years were relatively lean. I feel Lewis was a winner; the Celtics won almost 50 his last season with a typical starting lineup of Lewis, Alaa Abdelnaby, Sherman Douglas, Kevin Gamble and 39-year-old Robert Parish (who did still have something left). Not exactly Russell, Havlicek and Sam Jones. If one was to assume that was a baseline performance for both Lewis and the Celtics and they were able to successfully build around him, who knows?

    But for Pierce, there's no shame in landing, say, sixth behind Bird, Russell, Havlicek, McHale and Cousy. They've just had so many great players over the years. And it shows, they've won the most titles of any NBA team.

  13. #53

    Ben Wilson (1984)

    I remember when the player touted as the top High School basketball player in the land was kill during his senior year. I don't think he was head and shoulders above the other players that included Danny Manning.

    Larry
    DevilHorse

  14. #54
    I'll go with Bias. And that's partially because I was an impressionable age (14) when he died, and because I followed his short career more than any of the others mentioned here.

    Bias was an amazing college player, one of the best I've ever seen. I was a diehard ACC fan in the 80s, loved watching him play. I remember thinking of how the Celtics would be nearly unbeatable with Bias teaming with Bird, Parrish and McHale. I try not to think about it because it's still depressing 25 years later. Better to think of that comeback win at the Dean Dome in '86, saving the Terps season, beating the Heels again in the ACC tournament.

    I'll never forget coming home around lunchtime that Summer. I turned on CNN and heard about Bias. Shocking.

    Petrovic would be #2 in my book. Easily the best European player up to that point.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    I know we're talking about NBA players here but when I hear "What if?" my thoughts immediately turn to last year's season without Irving. So frustrating to enter that season with much anticipation, to get a glimpse of what he could do, to lose him, spend the whole season wondering if he would come back, then get him back just a little bit too late. I still think that if he had been able to return just a week earlier we would have won it all. That would have given him three games in the ACC tournament to work himself back into the team, rather than having to start the NCAA tournament cold.

    At any rate, that's all in the past. He's a great kid and it's cool to see him doing well at the next level.

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Toledo
    Those of you who mentioned Drazen Petrovic, how good do you think he could have been?

    At the time of his death by automobile accident in 1993, Petrovic had just finished up an NBA season, only his fourth, in which he averaged 22 points and shot over 45% percent from three (he was Peja Stojakovic only with moves). In but two seasons with New Jersey, he had transformed a hapless loser into a challenging playoff adversary, one that fell just a game short of beating Mark Price, Brad Daugherty and Cleveland in the first round of the '93 postseason.

    He was 28 when he died. Could he have had a career that surpassed, say, even the heights of Dirk Nowitzki? Dirk's been averaging 22 points per game over 12 seasons, and has led his teams in Dallas to 10-straight 50-win seasons and a world championship, so the bar is pretty high. What say you?

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    Quote Originally Posted by Starter View Post
    Now we're talking. I think you have a relatively well-reasoned argument, though I don't think the stat lines you put up there show a whole lot, to be honest. Lewis wasn't singlehandedly responsible for wins and losses, though he was coming into his own on playoff teams, and it's not like those numbers you posted were weak. Combine those with the fact that he was 27 and entering his athletic peak and... we're going in circles.

    In terms of his defense, he had a strong reputation for being a very good defensive player (I'm not making that up), and his numbers hold up -- 1.4 steals and a block a game from a 2/3 is pretty strong. The game he blocked a prime Jordan four times -- which, in itself, is pretty amazing -- was obviously not the only good defensive game he had in his career. Though that clear ability and reputation to at least be able to hassle Jordan (really, all you can ask for) can't help but be indicative of what he was capable of. He was an above-average athlete with long arms, a great recipe.

    If you look, Lewis' numbers compare pretty favorably to another Reggie through their age 22 season -- Reggie Miller. Miller hit threes, Lewis blocked shots, but other than that they were honestly very similar. Miller, obviously, wasn't a superstar on the level of Bird. But he was a very good, some might say great, player on winning teams. Given those 12 extra seasons, who's to say Lewis couldn't have done the same? That, we can actually probably agree on. And that level of play is nothing to sneeze at. I still think he had the tools to be great, you don't, and I would think it's ok we part there, regardless of what we each recall about his defense, the number of shots he needed, whatever. After all, was Reggie Miller great? Probably depends on who you ask. (As a Knicks fan, I'd begrudgingly say yes.)

    That's awesome you got to see Bias in person. Such a shame what happened there. Imagine the course of NBA history had Bias made it to the league at anywhere near the level everyone believed he could have played at.
    Lots of fair points there. As for the stat lines, what I was trying to illustrate is that there wasn't much progression from 91, when the Celtics had pretty full years from Bird and McHale, to 93, when Bird had retired and McHale played less than half the season. And they won 8 fewer games and were bounced in the 1st round. What I infer from that is Lewis was nearing his ceiling. We will, foc ourse, never know for sure.

    Reggie Miller seems like a pretty good comparison. His stats didn't really improve after age 27, but his teams got better and most of his All-Star (5x) and All-NBA recognition (3x on the 3rd team, never higher) came in his late 20s and 30s. Hard to say to whether the same would have been true for Lewis, but certainly the possibility was there.

    Not to go all stat nerd on you (again), but posted below are the "Win Shares" for both from NBA Reference, which is their attempt to create a Bill James-like calc for individual player impact. It places Miller in somewhat better company overall than Lewis; also worth noting that Miller's WS was very consistent in the 11-12.5 range between ages 24 and 32 (from the site, not shown below), while Lewis's peaked at 9.1 in the 1992 season (age 26). Not suggesting that shows anything conclusively (and have no idea how good the Win Share calc is generally), but thought it was interesting.


    Explanation ▪ Players with careers of similar quality and shape (thru 2010-11)
    Thru 18 Years Win Shares (Best to Worst)
    Player Sim 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
    Reggie Miller 12.5 12.3 12.1 12.0 11.7 11.4 11.3 11.0 10.3 10.3 10.1 9.5 8.9 7.4 6.6 6.5 6.4 4.2
    Gary Payton 86.5 13.9 12.9 12.6 12.5 11.7 11.5 10.8 9.3 9.1 8.1 7.8 7.2 5.4 4.1 3.9 3.4 1.3
    Kobe Bryant 84.1 15.3 14.9 13.8 13.0 12.7 12.7 11.3 10.7 10.6 10.3 9.4 8.1 6.3 5.2 1.8
    John Stockton 83.9 15.6 14.4 14.1 14.0 13.9 13.6 13.4 13.2 13.0 11.2 10.8 10.7 10.6 8.0 6.7 6.4 5.9 3.1
    Clyde Drexler 83.3 13.2 12.8 12.6 12.4 11.7 11.6 10.3 8.1 7.5 6.8 6.8 6.7 6.7 6.0 2.4
    Ray Allen 79.3 13.7 11.1 10.7 10.1 10.0 9.7 9.5 9.1 8.9 7.9 7.0 6.9 6.3 5.2 4.9
    Steve Nash 78.2 12.6 12.4 11.6 10.9 10.5 9.9 9.9 8.8 8.4 8.0 7.3 4.8 3.0 1.0 0.7
    Jerry West 77.0 17.1 16.7 15.2 14.0 13.3 12.9 12.8 11.7 10.8 10.6 9.6 8.1 6.6 3.2
    George Gervin 75.7 12.0 11.4 10.7 10.6 10.5 10.5 10.0 9.4 9.3 7.3 5.5 4.6 3.0 1.6
    Jason Kidd 75.2 11.3 10.1 9.6 9.3 8.9 8.9 8.5 8.5 8.1 8.0 7.2 7.2 6.4 5.9 4.4 4.3 3.7
    Magic Johnson 73.9 16.5 16.1 15.9 15.4 12.9 12.7 12.5 12.1 10.9 10.5 10.2 6.4 3.6

    Explanation ▪ Players with careers of similar quality and shape (thru 2010-11)
    Thru 6 Years Win Shares (Best to Worst)
    Player Sim 1 2 3 4 5 6
    Reggie Lewis 9.1 8.3 7.5 6.9 6.7 0.4
    Jim Paxson 91.3 10.2 9.5 7.7 7.5 6.5 0.3
    Jason Terry 90.0 8.6 8.5 7.4 6.5 5.1 1.9
    Phil Chenier 90.0 8.8 8.8 7.4 5.8 5.5 1.4
    Earl Monroe 89.3 9.3 8.8 8.3 7.8 7.1 2.5
    Derek Harper 89.3 9.4 9.1 8.0 6.2 5.4 1.3
    Freddie Lewis 88.1 7.6 7.5 7.2 6.2 6.0 0.0
    Kerry Kittles 88.0 8.4 7.7 7.7 6.9 4.7 1.8
    Bob Cousy 87.1 8.1 7.8 7.7 7.2 6.8 3.9
    World B. Free 87.0 10.1 8.0 7.4 6.0 4.6 1.5
    Rolando Blackman 86.9 9.8 8.0 7.3 7.0 5.7 4.1

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