Karl Hess tosses Gugliotta and Corchiani from stands at State game - in Raleigh

[moonpie23]

i love me some Playcaller....however, that whole piece is chock full of a whole bunch of ifs, ands, buts, and maybes. Karl Hess KNOWS those guys...this wasn't the case of "some fan"...yes, he's supposed to ignore the jerseys, (in the rafters and on the players) but throwing them out was over the line....how about a direct personal warning?


"hey guys, i've had enough, you're messing with the scorer's table, etc, blah blah blah, i'm gonna run you if you keep it up"....

enlightening us about the difficulty of officiating a game is noteworthy, but running them was a show of power...look at his body language as he summons the officer....he's not worried about someone interfering with the game, he's pissed.

[83bluedevil]

If you do a follow-up to the article, can you please address the issue of fan ejection protocol? My understanding is that Hess did not attempt to control the situation by informing the State staff of the issue prior to ejection. To me, that's the issue here -- courtesy (as well as the rule book) should require an official to attempt to control the situation through home-team staff unless the behavior of the fan is threatening; I haven't seen any indication at all that either of the former players did anything the least bit threatening. Distracting? Maybe. But handling potential distraction should demand the courtesy of protocol.

[OldPhiKap]

I thought the Playcaller's piece was interesting and look forward to the next part. It does offer a different perspective.

Were they interfering with the scorer?
Were they previously warned?
Would the same thing have happened if it was Joe and Jane Wolfpack?
Did they act in a manner different than you would find at any other ACC stadium?

We can all speculate, but the folks who know have said all they plan to I expect.

Playcaller makes the point that if Hess was really a thin-skinned idiot, he would have done this on other occasions. Fair point. But the flip side is, if a yelling fan near the scorer's table is cause for ejection then half of Cameron would be empty by the end of any game. Or the Comcast Center, or LittleJohn.

[Reilly]

... Playcaller makes the point that if Hess was really a thin-skinned idiot, he would have done this on other occasions. ...

Depends on what the meaning of "this" is? Acted in a self-centered, arrogant fashion? Maybe he has.

Thrown out two retired jersey players from their home arena? You probably only get one go at that one.

[PackMan97]

I'll have to admit the playcallers well written defense of potential reasons for Hess's actions has me backing off my knee jerk reaction to skewer him.

His article just doesn't fly. What type of buffer exists in Cameron? in Littlejohn? Are you telling me that the fans behind the scorers table are always the model of decorum? Ya, right.

I know in Reynolds (92-97) I was often the kid behind the scorers table. So close I could touch the officials if I wanted, I certainly gave the refs a hard time whenever I was displeased with them. I'm sure I was not as family friendly as Corch and Googs and certainly much louder and more obnoxious. I don't believe I ever even had a referee acknowledge my existence let alone try and throw me out.

There is no excuse for Hess' actions. None. I don't even know why the ACC bothered releasing anything they should have just bought some gasoline and poured it on the flames for all the good their "explinations" do.

[El_Diablo]

His article just doesn't fly. What type of buffer exists in Cameron? in Littlejohn? Are you telling me that the fans behind the scorers table are always the model of decorum? Ya, right.

I have no idea about Littlejohn, but there has been a buffer zone in Cameron for years, even before the undergrads were moved from the bench side. Until a few years ago, these tickets were given out to non-students and to some student groups with clear strings attached (no raucous behavior). Now, the buffer zone is more like a buffer half. If you watch a Duke game on TV, you will see that the area directly behind the opposing bench is filled with that team's fans. Around that (and around the scorer's table) is a vast sea of seated fans covering almost the entire section. Students on that side are only in the back row and the extreme corners.

[davekay1971]

I tend to agree with PackMan on this one. I understand the Playcaller's well written article, and it makes perfect sense. But, you can only speculate whether his absolutely accurate statements about the job of a ref and a ref's concerns actually apply to the specific situation at RBC.

To date what he have is:
1) Consistent statements from bystanders that Gugs and Corchianni were not vulgar or excessive in any observable way
2) No video evidence to the contrary
3) A notoriously thin-skinned and prickly official who tossed them out
4) A statement from the ACC/Hess that they were tossed for interfering with the scorers and behaving in an inciting manner...with no supporting evidence

Going back to Roy having the Presbyterian fan tossed, we all took great pleasure in skewering Roy. To recall, what we had in that situation was:
1) Consistent statements from bystanders that the Blue Hose fan was not vulgar or excessive in any observable way
2) No video evidence to the contrary
3) A notoriously thin-skinned and prickly coach who had him tossed out
4) A statement from UNC/Roy that he was tossed for drunken/disorderly behavior...with no supporting evidence

I'm inclined to give Hess about as much benefit of the doubt as I gave Roy.

[DukeUsul]

Playcaller's take is an interesting perspective that none of the rest of us have. I can see the point he is getting at regarding potential distraction at/near the scorer's table. But there are two key questions unanswered:

1. If G&C were being distracting, was it in fact at/near the scorer's table and interfering with game operations?
2. If anything they were doing was (or was becoming) a distraction to the point of interfering with the game, were they warned and told of the potential consequences of continuing that behavior? If not, why not? (This is the part that bugs me and I think a lot of us... that it seems from afar like a pure power trip and why didn't he take steps to address the problem - if there was one - in a more appropriate and stepwise fashion?)

The only scenario I can see justifying this line of thinking is if C&G were in fact purposely interfering with game operations, had been warned, and then proceeded to ignore the warning. Doesn't sound like what happened, but I wasn't there and unfortunately we may never know unless reliable sources sitting nearby are able to shed additional light since the ACC is clearly not going to provide any further details/explanation.

Can't answer all your questions, but can answer one with the video. Yes it must have been at/near the scorer's table, considering they were seated immediately behind the game official at the scorer's table. Haven't seen any video out there that shows them being overbearing or threatening.

http://deadspin.com/5886265/former-n...rom-the-stands

[Duvall]

His article just doesn't fly. What type of buffer exists in Cameron? in Littlejohn? Are you telling me that the fans behind the scorers table are always the model of decorum? Ya, right.

The last time I was able to snag a seat behind the scorer's table (2009 or so) I was specifically admonished by Duke game management not to address the officials in any way. Don't know if the referees even noticed what I had been saying, though.

[dyedwab]

...and as good a brief for Hess' case as can be made. It, however, left me unconvinced.

Here's what I focus on. An official throwing a fan, no matter who they are, out of a game, is a very unusual action. To me, taking that action requires a specific explanation that is more than a 2 days later opaque description of what happened.

And seriously, it wasn't two random fans he threw out, it was two recognizable State alums, both of whom have their jerseys in the rafters.

In my profession, people I work for tend to do a lot of things for which they are criticized very publicly. and they make those decisions anyway. But they know when making them, that the more public and controversial the decision,, the more it requires a good explanation.

Hess may have had good reasons for tossing out Corchiani and Gugliotta - though the evidence I have seen is not compelling. But the idea that this was just another decision, and requires no greater care or explanation is a fundmental failure, both of the official and of the league.

[Chicago 1995]

I thought the Playcaller's piece was interesting and look forward to the next part. It does offer a different perspective.

...

Playcaller makes the point that if Hess was really a thin-skinned idiot, he would have done this on other occasions. Fair point. But the flip side is, if a yelling fan near the scorer's table is cause for ejection then half of Cameron would be empty by the end of any game. Or the Comcast Center, or LittleJohn.

Counterpoint:

Hess hasn't done this on other occassions because his massive ego hadn't reached the points it now has thanks to the ACC (and other conferences) continuing to hire him and give him plum jobs despite his grandstanding, lack of consistency and generally poor work, and he didn't feel as though he could do something like this until now.

All of the coddling and enabling and the failure to nip his grandstanding in the bud led to this.

[dball]

"Rather than strictly making a power play, Hess may have taken the action he did based on what he thought was in the best interest of a fairly administered contest."


Might be more inclined to believe this if Hess, who playcaller argues has only the best interest of the game in mind, had followed the established protocol for fan removal. If his issue were really concern for the integrity of the game, he would not have grandstanded by delaying the game and having a police officer eject two NC State legends. The league response is a tepid tap on the wrist for Hess.

[Jderf]

Counterpoint:

Hess hasn't done this on other occassions because his massive ego hadn't reached the points it now has thanks to the ACC (and other conferences) continuing to hire him and give him plum jobs despite his grandstanding, lack of consistency and generally poor work, and he didn't feel as though he could do something like this until now.

All of the coddling and enabling and the failure to nip his grandstanding in the bud led to this.

Well, if this is the colossal error that is the culmination of a career filled to the brim with grandstanding, inconsistency and generally poor work, it really isn't all that bad when you think about it. It didn't really affect the outcome of the game at all, and although he clearly didn't follow protocol, it is probable that Hess had his reasons. He obviously underestimated the timing of such a gaffe, in the wake of questionable officiating (from NC State's point of view) in a brutal loss, with a severely wounded and vulnerable fanbase. But it apparently wasn't even his worst call of the month, though I have to admit I haven't seen a video of the missed goaltending call. While the decision was certainly a bad one, executed improperly, and at a very bad moment for the fanbase--I feel like the reaction has largely been overblown. Now, the ACC's Orwellian response to the situation hasn't helped, fueling even more anger from the fans. But in the grand scheme of things, is this really that big of a deal?

[sagegrouse]

My two cents: the truth will never be known. Suppose Hess was on solid grounds for seeking some action against Corchiani and Gugliotta: they were not only riding the officials but interfering with the official scorer and timekeeper functions. No way the ACC is going to go after two legends of ACC basketball. Suppose there was no basis whatsoever in Hess's actions. Then it becomes a personnel matter (year, I know he's a contractor, but whatever), and there is no reason for the ACC to air out this particular bag of laundry. The Conference found a serious procedural discrepancy and used that for discipline and as the public release on l'affaire C&G. If there is more wrongdoing on Hess's part, we will see it a loss of assignments or a severing of ties to the ACC.

If C&G were out of line, what clearly should have happened was that Hess discuss the problem with the State official responsible for the game. That official would have said something to C&G, and the problem probably would be over (either because they piped down or changed their seats). That did not happen. If it was not resolved, Hess could then have asked State to move (or remove) the former players.

Anyway, change freely given.

sagegrouse

[Newton_14]

But it apparently wasn't even his worst call of the month, though I have to admit I haven't seen a video of the missed goaltending call.

I saw the video of the goaltend and it was blatant. An easy call in any circumstance in my view. How 3 ref's missed that is beyond me.

If C&G were out of line, what clearly should have happened was that Hess discuss the problem with the State official responsible for the game. That official would have said something to C&G, and the problem probably would be over (either because they piped down or changed their seats). That did not happen. If it was not resolved, Hess could then have asked State to move (or remove) the former players.

Anyway, change freely given.

sagegrouse

You nailed it here Sage. This is exactly what should have happened. Had this been taken, the ejections never happen.

[oldnavy]

Question. Can the scorer and officials at the scorer's table not ask management to remove someone if they are getting in the way of game manangement? One would have to assume based on Hess' response that someone from the table complained to Hess that Chris and Tom were interferring with their ability to do their jobs. If so, could they not have just as easily asked RBC security to have them removed??

I throw the BS flag on the explaination given by Hess. IMO they hacked him off because they were probably having a great time ragging him (face it, the game was no fun for them at that point) and Hess reacted by tossing them...

Unless an official(s) from the table comes forward to say that: Yes, Chris and Tom were interferring with their ability to manage and officiate the game and yes, they asked Hess to have them removed because they do not have the authority to do so, I say Bull Butter Hess - try again!

Besides, how else would Hess know that they were being a problem at the table unless the table complained to him??? For all he knows, when Chris and Tom approached the table, if they did, they could have been saying hello to an old friend...

[arnie]

His article just doesn't fly. What type of buffer exists in Cameron? in Littlejohn? Are you telling me that the fans behind the scorers table are always the model of decorum? Ya, right.

I know in Reynolds (92-97) I was often the kid behind the scorers table. So close I could touch the officials if I wanted, I certainly gave the refs a hard time whenever I was displeased with them. I'm sure I was not as family friendly as Corch and Googs and certainly much louder and more obnoxious. I don't believe I ever even had a referee acknowledge my existence let alone try and throw me out.

There is no excuse for Hess' actions. None. I don't even know why the ACC bothered releasing anything they should have just bought some gasoline and poured it on the flames for all the good their "explinations" do.

There is a difference as I have been at State games. The grown men (30s to 80s) in the great seats play the part of a "victim". They begin screaming at the refs as soon as the game starts and really don't stop unless State is way ahead. I've been to other arenas (not Maryland, though) and haven't seen anything that ridiculous. Was also at RBC for a 1st round game (Duke against an overmatched team) and the older men behind me cussed and screamed at Shavlik the entire first half. I finally asked them if Shav had done something to them in life and if not, could they at least stop the cussing. This doesn't mean that Hess was right, but don't say Corch and Googs presented themselves well in front of their kids.

[weezie]

Well, now, surely one of you computer whiz people can photoshop a halo on our Karl?

Since the media tide seems to be turning towards his overall super spectacularness.
What are the chances we get him at the Tar Heel game 3/3?

[Chicago 1995]

Well, if this is the colossal error that is the culmination of a career filled to the brim with grandstanding, inconsistency and generally poor work, it really isn't all that bad when you think about it. It didn't really affect the outcome of the game at all, and although he clearly didn't follow protocol, it is probable that Hess had his reasons. He obviously underestimated the timing of such a gaffe, in the wake of questionable officiating (from NC State's point of view) in a brutal loss, with a severely wounded and vulnerable fanbase. But it apparently wasn't even his worst call of the month, though I have to admit I haven't seen a video of the missed goaltending call. While the decision was certainly a bad one, executed improperly, and at a very bad moment for the fanbase--I feel like the reaction has largely been overblown. Now, the ACC's Orwellian response to the situation hasn't helped, fueling even more anger from the fans. But in the grand scheme of things, is this really that big of a deal?

I don't think it is the colossal error or the culmination of a career filled with grandstanding, inconsistency and generally poor work. I merely think this is a symptom or an indication as to how overblown Hess's ego has become. It's not the error, but its a strong indication that he thinks he's above reproach, and that what he's been doing all these years, which vascilates between simply ruining otherwise watchable game and out and out effecting the outcome of games, is right.

The missed goaltend was attrocious, but hell, so too was the screw job he gave us in the 2004 ACC title game.

It's a wonder we all don't aspire to be officials. There's no accountability, it seems, and unlike most other professions, no correlation between the quality of your work and the success of your career.

[killerleft]

After reading this thread, the main thing I take away from it is this: the Duke fanbase hates the refs just like all the others we harp on, no more and no less.

Karl Hess may have screwed up the protocol, but I seriously doubt Corchianni and Gugliotta were innocent of wrongdoing. I just can't see Hess throwing out two State legends without ample cause. Certainly he knew the firestorm that he was creating. Hess may or may not be a horrible ref, but he'd have to be quite stupid to do what he did without a reason. Sorry, just doesn't compute.