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  1. #81
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Reilly View Post
    Well, the statement does say some things:

    - the ref must judge the behavior as extreme or excessive; and, if so,
    - the ref is to solicit home game management and not security.

    So ...

    - Karl Hess has horrible judgment, as nobody would find Gugliotta or Corchiani's behavior extreme or excessive; and
    - Karl Hess did not follow proper procedures, so will be getting a reminder as to what those procedures are.

    All in all, I'd say Hess has had better days at the office, but then I remember it's Karl Hess, so maybe not.
    I would imagine that the ACC office also had a discussion with Mr. Hess. It probably involved some stern words on not being a jack wagon and embarrassing the league.
    usa

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Wilmington, DE & Durham, NC
    At halftime Jimmy Dykes just said (paraphrasing) "Karl Hess is a great official. Any coach seeing him on the floor will feel confident of having a well called game." So I guess we now have the ACC's official response. There will be no explanation of what Googs and Corciani did. Just a little protocal violation. Expect State paranoia to increase exponentially.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by buddy View Post
    Expect State paranoia to increase exponentially.
    It's not paranoia when they really are out to get you.

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by PackMan97 View Post
    It's not paranoia when they really are out to get you.
    No, it isn't.
    Man, if your Mom made you wear that color when you were a baby, and you're still wearing it, it's time to grow up!

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    San Francisco
    Quote Originally Posted by PackMan97 View Post
    It's not paranoia when they really are out to get you.
    And make no mistake....they are out to get you.

    However, I was surprised that Googs and Corchiani didn't put up more of a fight when asked to leave.

    It would be like asking Laettner to leave CIS....or Jordan to leave the Dean Dome. If I was them, I would've replied, "Are you kidding me? This is my house. You leave!"

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    raleigh
    unfortunately, i would have refused to leave......i would have made them carry me out...
    "Either we're going down, or they are....... Kirk out!"

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by buddy View Post
    At halftime Jimmy Dykes just said (paraphrasing) "Karl Hess is a great official. Any coach seeing him on the floor will feel confident of having a well called game." So I guess we now have the ACC's official response. There will be no explanation of what Googs and Corciani did. Just a little protocal violation. Expect State paranoia to increase exponentially.
    I thought I heard him say, "... one of the best..." If I am correct, I bet some lawyer(s) will be calling other refs tomorrow to see if they wish to file suit for defamation of character.

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Washington/Baltimore
    Quote Originally Posted by buddy View Post
    At halftime Jimmy Dykes just said (paraphrasing) "Karl Hess is a great official. Any coach seeing him on the floor will feel confident of having a well called game." So I guess we now have the ACC's official response. There will be no explanation of what Googs and Corciani did. Just a little protocal violation. Expect State paranoia to increase exponentially.
    Yeah, I lost a lot of respect for Dykes after this as well.

    Perhaps this will be enough to finally get Hess removed. As I've noted before, he's an embarrASSment to the referee's craft. I don't think that he's biased - notice that every school's fans have the same opinion of him. Surely the league can find someone else willing to make $500 an hour reffing games who would do a better, more consistent job.

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Is there a published rotation of who will get what game, or is it only announced a few days in advance?

    Have the ACC tourney refs been chosen/assigned?

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    Is there a published rotation of who will get what game, or is it only announced a few days in advance?

    Have the ACC tourney refs been chosen/assigned?
    Not published, but regular season assignments are known well in advance, with alternates earmarked. It is my understanding that ACC Tourney ref candidates are graded throughout the season and final selections are made long enough before the Tourney so that travel schedules, etc. can be managed. There is sufficient time that exceptions/replacements can be made, but this is usually not a last minute deal. Performance grades are cumulatively understood, so that the refs have a sense that they will be working the ACC Tourney or be a candidate in another Conference. College refs are generally independent contractors, and not employees of the respective conferences.

    I am not an expert here. If anyone has an additional or different understanding, please advise.

  11. #91
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    I think you guys ought to give poor Karl Hess a break.

    It's a well established fact that when you go blind, your other senses improve to compensate. For somebody as blind as Hess, his hearing must be superhuman. Corchiani and Gugliotta may not have shouted anything nasty, but I bet they were muttering under their breath.

    Seriously, this incident makes me recall that Corchiani was the victim of one of the worst calls -- and most important bad calls at that -- in ACC history. in 1989, NC State was playing top seeded Georgetown in the Sweet 16. The Pack was rallying back and were on the verge of tying the game. Corchiani drove and dished inside to a teammate who converted the game-tying basket as he was fouled by Alonzo Morning -- his 5th foul. But, NO, Rick Hartzell comes racing in and overrules the ref who called the foul on Morning and says that Corchiani traveled before oaking the feed.

    It was an absurd call and cost State the game (Duke took care of Georgetown two days later). The funny thing is that Hartzell as an ACC ref and remained one long enough to precipitate one of the great screwups in ACC history -- the mismanaged ice game at Virginia in 1997 (his mistakes worked in Duke's favor in that one). That one earned him a suspension from the ACC ... the Corchiani screwup only earned him infamy from a generation of ACC fans.
    This post brought back a long-dormant memory. I was at that game and remember just how bad that call was. (Though the memory of Phil dunking over Alonzo probably was taken up all my brain space from the '89 tournament).

    Here's the thing - there is no question that Hess knew he was throwing out Corchiani and Gugliotta. He was sending a message. and since the ACC refuses to do anything about it, they are sending another message. That message is "We don't give 2 cents that our officials are becoming a punchline."

  12. #92
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by dyedwab View Post
    This post brought back a long-dormant memory. I was at that game and remember just how bad that call was. (Though the memory of Phil dunking over Alonzo probably was taken up all my brain space from the '89 tournament).

    Here's the thing - there is no question that Hess knew he was throwing out Corchiani and Gugliotta. He was sending a message. and since the ACC refuses to do anything about it, they are sending another message. That message is "We don't give 2 cents that our officials are becoming a punchline."
    I don't think that's very fair. They made a statement, and we don't know if there were further reprimands between the conference and hess... like "get your act together and quit being a tugboat"....things that probably wouldn't be made public. The ACC publicly said he didn't follow protocol...He didn't screw up anything to do with the actual game.....so i don't think a suspension is warranted, if that's what your calling for. He called for two guys to be removed from the game. The league said he should have alerted stadium services or whomever instead of the cops. In the case of stadium people, at least they could make their case that they weren't being disruptive....more so than could one for cops....

    I will say one thing, I highly doubt the league will stand for this if it becomes pattern with hess. I certainly hope the crazies give him everything they got next time he comes to cameron....
    usa

  13. #93
    During our halftime tonight, Dykes said that Gugliotta and Corchiani statements towards Hess were "You're having a bad game. You're making too many mistakes."

    Sounds again like a pretty good cheer for the Crazies. Although they'd NEVER get away with it.....

  14. #94
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    20 Minutes From The Heaven That Is Cameron Indoor
    I think Hess was way out of line with this based on all the evidence we have to go on at this point. Given who the two fans were, unless they are 1. Drunk and obnoxious, 2. Using bad Profanity, or 3. Were making personal threats, then dude, you have to ignore it and move on. I just see that as Hess having a very bad case of Rabbit Ears and insecurity, along with a bad case of power trip.

    I wish Hess and Jamie Luckey would be shown the door. Both are terrible imo.

    "[T]he tarnished Tar Heels that bear little resemblance to the revered program built by Dean Smith."- Ashville Times
    "UNC and the NCAA are trying to conceal that the fraud was specifically designed to pad the transcripts of varsity athletes" - Bloomberg

  15. #95
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    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    I don't think that's very fair. They made a statement, and we don't know if there were further reprimands between the conference and hess... like "get your act together and quit being a tugboat"....things that probably wouldn't be made public. The ACC publicly said he didn't follow protocol...He didn't screw up anything to do with the actual game.....so i don't think a suspension is warranted, if that's what your calling for. He called for two guys to be removed from the game. The league said he should have alerted stadium services or whomever instead of the cops. In the case of stadium people, at least they could make their case that they weren't being disruptive....more so than could one for cops....

    I will say one thing, I highly doubt the league will stand for this if it becomes pattern with hess. I certainly hope the crazies give him everything they got next time he comes to cameron....
    I disagree - strongly. An official ejecting someone sitting in the stands from a game is an extreme event and requires, imho 1) a clear explanation from the official, and 2) a clear violation that justifies taking such a drastic measure. And if neither of those things are present, the the league needs to 1) discipline the official and 2) do it publicly.

    This is NOT a blown call, or something on the court, or a missed judgement or a rule during the game. This is beyond that. It is so rare that it requires explanation, from both the officials and the league.

    Basically, what I'm saying is that this isn't just another controversial call by an official. (and I have long believed that all leagues would be better off with some public statements/acknowlegements when they discipline their officials, but that's a topic for another discussion).

  16. #96
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by dyedwab View Post
    I disagree - strongly. An official ejecting someone sitting in the stands from a game is an extreme event and requires, imho 1) a clear explanation from the official, and 2) a clear violation that justifies taking such a drastic measure. And if neither of those things are present, the the league needs to 1) discipline the official and 2) do it publicly.

    This is NOT a blown call, or something on the court, or a missed judgement or a rule during the game. This is beyond that. It is so rare that it requires explanation, from both the officials and the league.

    Basically, what I'm saying is that this isn't just another controversial call by an official. (and I have long believed that all leagues would be better off with some public statements/acknowlegements when they discipline their officials, but that's a topic for another discussion).
    Why does it need to be public? When you screw up at your job, does your boss announce it to the media? At most the league owes an apology to the two guys for Hess' actions. There is no reason for that to be public.

    The ACC owes the Athletics department at NCSU an explanation for why an ACC official treated a state fan the way he did, and they owe an apology to the fans. For all we know, those two things have been delivered. They owe you and the rest of the general public nothing. We have the benefit of hearing from fans around exactly what was said. All the league has is the word of Debbie Yow and Mr. Hess. If Karl said the fans were being disturbing, then what is the league to do? say "no they were not.... SUSPENSION for you"...of course not....If they made it public, he might even have a case for suing the league.

    For all the leauge knows, all Karl did wrong was not go through the right channels to get the fan ejected. They can't prove that the fans didn't say something profane or what not. They conceded that Hess didn't take the correct action in the given situation. There's not much else they can do.

    Now as I mentioned, its likely there was a conversation between the league and hess about what happened, and there was probably some sort of "don't be an idiot, karl" in that conversation. I don't think the league would be too pleased if this were a weekly occurrence.
    usa

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Faison1 View Post
    However, I was surprised that Googs and Corchiani didn't put up more of a fight when asked to leave.

    It would be like asking Laettner to leave CIS....or Jordan to leave the Dean Dome. If I was them, I would've replied, "Are you kidding me? This is my house. You leave!"
    It's a lot different when two police offices ask you to leave. What were they supposed to do? Get physical? Get arrested? With both of their young daughters right there?

    Both men have been around the block long enough to know much more noise would be made leaving quietly than causing a scene which would just prove Hess was correct and they were unruly.

  18. #98
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Undisclosed
    Even if there was no cussing I can see how it happened from Karl's perspective. It's one thing to get heckled by a faceless crowd or some drunk student. Hess knows who these guys are, and they know Hess. It's a bit more personal. I would be curious if Hess had warned the two to pipe down.

    Having said that, the best remedy is for Karl to take a little vacation and let the stress go. Take a week off (voluntarily or through ACC office scheduling), go to the beach, and then come back the same miserable SOB -- er, come back nice and rested for the home stretch.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    Why does it need to be public? When you screw up at your job, does your boss announce it to the media? At most the league owes an apology to the two guys for Hess' actions. There is no reason for that to be public.

    The ACC owes the Athletics department at NCSU an explanation for why an ACC official treated a state fan the way he did, and they owe an apology to the fans. For all we know, those two things have been delivered. They owe you and the rest of the general public nothing. We have the benefit of hearing from fans around exactly what was said. All the league has is the word of Debbie Yow and Mr. Hess. If Karl said the fans were being disturbing, then what is the league to do? say "no they were not.... SUSPENSION for you"...of course not....If they made it public, he might even have a case for suing the league.
    Private insults and mistakes deserve private apologies. Public insults and mistakes deserve public apologies. The issue isn't whether he made his mistake while doing his job, but whether that mistake in judgement was done in a private setting or in a public one. If Hess did nothing wrong he has nothing to apologize for. But if an apology is in order it needs to be public. Not because we deserve it - we deserve nothing - but because the wrong he committed against the two was done in public (on a televised) stage. If he made an error in judgement he did so in a way as to embarass two people in the most public of forums. That is why the explanation and apology should also be done in the open. Not much good comes from things done in secret.

    Again, if he did nothing wrong he should refuse to apologize at all. But if he did he should be honorable enough to admit it publicly since the offense took place in public. What our employer requires of us, and what we choose to do, can and should be two different things. We can always go beyond what is required - and when we do it speaks to our character.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    Even if there was no cussing I can see how it happened from Karl's perspective. It's one thing to get heckled by a faceless crowd or some drunk student. Hess knows who these guys are, and they know Hess. It's a bit more personal. I would be curious if Hess had warned the two to pipe down.

    Having said that, the best remedy is for Karl to take a little vacation and let the stress go. Take a week off (voluntarily or through ACC office scheduling), go to the beach, and then come back the same miserable SOB -- er, come back nice and rested for the home stretch.
    Hess hasn't officiated a game in which thest two participated in over 10 years - if it is still "a bit too personal" I think Hess has way too long a memory of insults and too great an ability to hold a grudge to be effective in his job.

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