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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by JNort View Post
    UNC and why we win:

    1) Marshall is not a scoring threat, is slow and will not penetrate well which is what has killed us all year. On defense he does not move very quick which should mean either penetration or openings for the 3 ball for us.
    It is true that Marshall is not a scorer, but he does penetrate quite a bit- it's just that he usually dishes. You will probably try to turn him into a scorer by guarding the passing lanes, which worked well last year, but I'm not sure you have the personnel this year. Marshall has been averaging almost 9 points per game in ACC play, which is not bad considering he is a past-first player. As for his D, that has improved considerably. Stoglin scored 20 on us last game, but he needed 21 shots to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JNort View Post
    2) Reggie Bullock shoots a good bit for some one who is not a part of their big 4 and he hits decent % but struggles if you do not give him room. Who ever is playing the 2 guard spot just needs to play good off ball defense.
    The trick here is to stop Marshall. He's very good at breaking down the D and then finding RB in the right spot and in rhythm. Sometimes though, Bullock just misses- he's a bit streaky. Lately he's been getting better at rebounding and put-backs. You will want to put a body on him when shots go up.

    Quote Originally Posted by JNort View Post
    3) Barnes will have the size advantage on us since we do not play any SF's. Luckily though he odes not really post up nor is he good at getting to the rim off his own dribble. Barnes can take 1 or 2 dribbles then he either shoots or passes. He will get his points we just gotta make sure its not a great % and don't let him get to the foul line
    .

    This is key. I'm not sure who you match up on Barnes. Barnes can get to the rim better than many think, although he's a little like Rivers in that sometimes he just takes it into traffic when he would be better served with a pull up or dish.

    Quote Originally Posted by JNort View Post
    4) Henson is long and blocks/alters a lot of shots and we all know this by now. The key to stopping Henson is to not let him get his spot in the paint and box out on defense. Henson is very slim and can be pushed around a little bit. Mason and Miles should fare decently enough if they keep him from getting to deep in the paint. Also depending on how the refs let the game play could affect how well we do against Henson and Z. If they allow a physical game in the paint then we got the advantage. Over on IC I saw them talking about this as well

    5) Zeller imo does not get enough attention. He has good instincts and is a hard worker with excellent touch around the rim. Once again he is a very soft player who does not like physical contact and Mason and Miles really like to bang on offense and defense.
    I don't think Z is soft- he was the only one who was effective when FSU basically pushed us all over the court and he has been playing very tough in ACC play. Still, playing physical with them is the right move, if you can do it without fouling. Last year Mason had 6, 0, and 2 points against us in three games. He is much better this year, but I'm not sure it's enough to give you an advantage inside. If he rebounds well, that could make a huge difference.


    Quote Originally Posted by JNort View Post
    Curry plays well against UNC or he has in the 3 games he has played them in. He has averaged 18 ppg while shooting 58% from the field and 58% from 3 as well. I do not expect him to play that well in the upcoming game but I think it is reasonable to think he gets some what close to those numbers (12 + points)

    Austin has gotten better recently as a distributor and nobody has the foot speed for UNC to stay with him (does anyone?). Austin also seems to love attention good or bad and boy... UNC will make sure they hate on him and give him plenty of attention, hopefully he responds well to it.
    Curry and Austin are the two guys that scare me. Curry has proven adept at finding holes in the D and hitting big shots. The last thing I wanted to see against UM was him finding his stroke.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by FerryFor50 View Post
    Did you see that he dropped Duke to 15th from 8th? After a 4 point loss in OT?

    I really want to like Seth Davis. But he keeps giving me reasons not to.
    Not to defend Seth Davis at all but we did lose at home to an unranked team and were favored by 10-11, IIRC, and looked pretty mediocre (or worse) for a half (or more) in the process.
    Not leaving until the game is over.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildeac View Post
    Not to defend Seth Davis at all but we did lose at home to an unranked team and were favored by 10-11, IIRC, and looked pretty mediocre (or worse) for a half (or more) in the process.
    Doesn't matter. He dropped them 7 spots, behind two teams they beat this year (Michigan and Michigan St) who also lost this week, as well as behind Kansas, who has 5 losses (one of them to Duke) and lost to Iowa St on Sat and UNLV, who also lost this week to Wyoming. Also behind Georgetown, who lost to a mediocre Pitt team last week. And based on what? His "hunch" that they aren't as good as their ranking? Whatever happened to ranking based on results? How do you justify dropping a team 7 spots after a 4 pt OT loss at home?

    There are LOTS of teams this year that are pretty mediocre at times and only about 3-4 teams that you can call consistently good. (UK, Syracuse, Ohio S, Baylor and Mizzou... UNC has come on of late but against shoddy competition)

    I know rankings don't mean a ton, but they DO factor in to where teams play in the tournament and it irritates me when teams like UNC lose by 33 and barely drop 3 spots but teams like Duke, who have earned the benefit of the doubt every bit as much as UNC, lose by 4 points and drop the same number of spots or more.

  4. #44

    powder blue

    Why entertain these jokers with a response and debating w/ them? They have their own "strictly moderated" boards they can post on....GTHC.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kishiznit View Post
    Why entertain these jokers with a response and debating w/ them? They have their own "strictly moderated" boards they can post on....GTHC.
    And who might these jokers be? Anyone with intelligent and non-provoking contributions is welcome to post on the board, regardless of viewpoint.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by duke09hms View Post
    Their defense is ranked #14 in adjusted efficiency while ours dropped back into the 90s after this weekend.
    Quote Originally Posted by duke09hms View Post
    The KenPom defensive rankings take strength of schedule and quality of opponent into account, so by just about every objective measure, the UNC defense as a whole is unfortunately much better than ours.
    What Pomeroy's ratings do not take into account is injuries. Since Strickland has been out, UNC's defensive efficiency has been somewhere in the 30s. Which of course is still better than the 90s, but my point is their D isn't nearly as good as what Pomeroy's system would imply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saratoga2 View Post
    UNC is the tallest starting team that we have faced, with 7' and 6'11" on the back line and 6'8". 6'6" and 6'3" players at the SF and guards. ... My guess is that we will start Mason, Ryan, Quinn, Seth and Austin. We shall see on that.
    According to StatSheet, Bullock is listed at 6'7 and Marshall at 6'4. If we start Quinn, Seth and Austin, we'll be giving up 4", 5" & 4" at the perimeter positions. Plus, I don't know how tall UNC's players really are, but I privately suspect Quinn and Seth are a couple inches shorter than their listed height.

    We talk about how we don't have the size to match up with Barnes, but if you're right about the starting lineup, we'll be giving up even more height to Bullock, and the same amount of height to Marshall. And that's assuming Quinn and Seth really are as tall as they're listed. If they're shorter (and UNC's players are not shorter than they're listed) then we'll be giving up a couple inches more height at both PG and SG than we will to Barnes.

    Which is one reason I think Andre will play a big role in this game. As odd as it may sound, we need his size in there. And if he hunts his shot the way he did in the first half against Wake Forest, UNC will have a tough time guarding him. So I think Andre could be the x-factor this game.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    What Pomeroy's ratings do not take into account is injuries. Since Strickland has been out, UNC's defensive efficiency has been somewhere in the 30s. Which of course is still better than the 90s, but my point is their D isn't nearly as good as what Pomeroy's system would imply.



    According to StatSheet, Bullock is listed at 6'7 and Marshall at 6'4. If we start Quinn, Seth and Austin, we'll be giving up 4", 5" & 4" at the perimeter positions. Plus, I don't know how tall UNC's players really are, but I privately suspect Quinn and Seth are a couple inches shorter than their listed height.

    We talk about how we don't have the size to match up with Barnes, but if you're right about the starting lineup, we'll be giving up even more height to Bullock, and the same amount of height to Marshall. And that's assuming Quinn and Seth really are as tall as they're listed. If they're shorter (and UNC's players are not shorter than they're listed) then we'll be giving up a couple inches more height at both PG and SG than we will to Barnes.

    Which is one reason I think Andre will play a big role in this game. As odd as it may sound, we need his size in there. And if he hunts his shot the way he did in the first half against Wake Forest, UNC will have a tough time guarding him. So I think Andre could be the x-factor this game.
    Yes, it would be very nice if Dre would grace us with his presence for this game. The here today gone tomorrow routine is wearing a bit thin, he's a junior and it's time for him to start playing like one, night in and night out.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoHeel View Post



    I don't think Z is soft- he was the only one who was effective when FSU basically pushed us all over the court and he has been playing very tough in ACC play. Still, playing physical with them is the right move, if you can do it without fouling. Last year Mason had 6, 0, and 2 points against us in three games. He is much better this year, but I'm not sure it's enough to give you an advantage inside. If he rebounds well, that could make a huge difference.
    I would say he is soft yes unless you compare him to Henson then yes he is not soft lol. Zeller is the only UNC guy I even like (wincing in pain) and wish we would have gotten. Zeller actually gave a darn when yall played FSU and fought through everything since nobody else would and that really shows his desire. He gets unfairly treated by most of his own fan base.

    As for Mason... True he did only get 6, 0, and 2 points in those game but that was because he was not supposed to score. His role was to play defense and rebound which he struggled with most of last year but we did not need him scoring when we had Nolan, Kyle, and Seth who does really well against UNC. This year he is more of a focal point for our offense and has greatly improved his rebounding

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncexnyc View Post
    Yes, it would be very nice if Dre would grace us with his presence for this game. The here today gone tomorrow routine is wearing a bit thin, he's a junior and it's time for him to start playing like one, night in and night out.
    I agree some what... as a guy who really has only one aspect to his game (catch and shoot) he is going to be really streaky. I really wish he would utilize the pump fake more or a 1 ta 2 dribble pull up shot. I also mentioned this in another thread but just from watching it seems to me that Dre plays better when Tyler is at pg.

    Maybe when we do our subbing we should bring Quinn and Seth in together and bring in Tyler and Dre together since it has been brought up before that Seth does not play as well when Tyler is on the floor with him.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoHeel View Post
    From Seth Davis...

    On the day I visited Duke last week, the coaches tried to light a fire under the players by calling a 5 a.m. team meeting. The meeting lasted for three hours, and I'm told Coach K delivered quite the harsh critique. Later that day Coach K put the players through a rigorous practice. When I interviewed Austin Rivers afterward, his knees were bright red from floor burns. ("Loose ball drills," he said cheerfully.) So it's surprising, to say the least, that the Blue Devils came out on Sunday for a league game at home and weren't ready to play. That does not bode well for their game at North Carolina on Wednesday night.

    http://cnnsi.com/2012/writers/seth_d...issouri/1.html

    Hmm this does not even make sense to me.... So how was it that we got better as the game went on? Do we heal up as we play? I mean we were down at half by 16(?) fought back and went into OT. Also how does that hurt against UNC on WEDNESDAY NIGHT when that happened on a sunday early in the morning? If anything it helps since they got the extra work in and still have 2 and a half days to rest from it... Seth Davis is out of his mind or I am missing something.

  11. #51

    Given

    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    What Pomeroy's ratings do not take into account is injuries. Since Strickland has been out, UNC's defensive efficiency has been somewhere in the 30s. Which of course is still better than the 90s, but my point is their D isn't nearly as good as what Pomeroy's system would imply.



    According to StatSheet, Bullock is listed at 6'7 and Marshall at 6'4. If we start Quinn, Seth and Austin, we'll be giving up 4", 5" & 4" at the perimeter positions. Plus, I don't know how tall UNC's players really are, but I privately suspect Quinn and Seth are a couple inches shorter than their listed height.

    We talk about how we don't have the size to match up with Barnes, but if you're right about the starting lineup, we'll be giving up even more height to Bullock, and the same amount of height to Marshall. And that's assuming Quinn and Seth really are as tall as they're listed. If they're shorter (and UNC's players are not shorter than they're listed) then we'll be giving up a couple inches more height at both PG and SG than we will to Barnes.

    Which is one reason I think Andre will play a big role in this game. As odd as it may sound, we need his size in there. And if he hunts his shot the way he did in the first half against Wake Forest, UNC will have a tough time guarding him. So I think Andre could be the x-factor this game.
    I won't quibble with your basic premise, that they would have a large height advantage if we start our most effective guards of late. We should have the quickness advantage though. If we substitute Andre for who, Quinn, we get a 6'4" guard who hasn't played well of late and who will still give away 4 inches instead of 6 inches, if Seth were to guard him. The problem is that there is no Duke lineup that will make up for this UNC height afvantage unless coach K is willing to use Michael or Josh at the 3. I therefore favor playing the guys who are doing the best job at the present time and subbing the others as needed.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by JNort View Post
    Hmm this does not even make sense to me.... So how was it that we got better as the game went on? Do we heal up as we play? I mean we were down at half by 16(?) fought back and went into OT. Also how does that hurt against UNC on WEDNESDAY NIGHT when that happened on a sunday early in the morning? If anything it helps since they got the extra work in and still have 2 and a half days to rest from it... Seth Davis is out of his mind or I am missing something.
    The point is that the team came out flat against an inferior opponent at home after supposedly receiving the message that they need to work harder. The point is that it shouldn't take us 30 minutes to figure out that we have to play hard to beat inferior teams, and then lose anyway. I don't think losing to a mediocre Miami team at home helps us in any way. If we come out with the same energy @ UNC, we'll lose by 33, or more.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Saratoga2 View Post
    I won't quibble with your basic premise, that they would have a large height advantage if we start our most effective guards of late. We should have the quickness advantage though. If we substitute Andre for who, Quinn, we get a 6'4" guard who hasn't played well of late and who will still give away 4 inches instead of 6 inches, if Seth were to guard him. The problem is that there is no Duke lineup that will make up for this UNC height afvantage unless coach K is willing to use Michael or Josh at the 3. I therefore favor playing the guys who are doing the best job at the present time and subbing the others as needed.
    If we do end up having a quickness advantage, and a height deficit, i'm not sure that we can take advantage of the quickness b/c Andre, Austin, Tyler nor Quinn has shown the ability to hit pull-up jumpers, tho' Seth has. I'm afraid that Austin is gonna drive into the trees and get rejected frequently, b/c he seems to be determined to get to the rim, irregardless
    If Austin can use his eyes more and do an effective job drawing either Zeller or Henson to him and then pass to an open Plumlee or Kelly, that may be our best play. Austin has shown a better ability to pass lately, so maybe he'll be able to put that to use effectively vs UNC.
    Among the other guards, only Quinn has shown the ability to create a shot in the lane, despite his closing plays vs Miami, and he gives up a foot (or more) to UNC's frontcourt, so he may not be able shoot over them.
    If i was UNC i would not drop off of the perimeter shooters and just let Henson and Zeller try to block shots if our guards do end up getting past the perimeter D. Then again, if that doesn't work, Roy has a propensity to not change strategies during games, it may be a blessing for Duke.
    I really don't see who among Duke's guards can prevent Marshall from doing what he does, and subsequently gets open dunks for Henson & Zeller.

  14. #54
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    Seems to me that whoever wants to argue about how poorly we played against Miami (and we certainly did) should do so on the Miami thread.

    Next play, Carolina.

    I would expect this to be an extremely physical game and pretty chippy. Would not be surprised to see some extra-curriculars.
    Twerp-free since July 1, 2014.

  15. #55

    The Point

    In championship years, teams with outstanding or quality point guards are usually the winners.

    Some names that come to mind: B. Hurley,J. Williams, R. Felton, K. Walker, and there are others. The point is
    hate or love him, Marshall is by far the better point guard in this game. His stats since taking over the reins
    for the Holes speak for themselves.

    We have had point guard by committee. Marshall is not the greatest penetrator, but his passing ability is
    uncanny. IMHO his play will be the key in deciding the outcome of this game.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    I don't think losing to a mediocre Miami team at home helps us in any way.
    I wish people would stop saying this. Yes, we should have beaten them at home, but since Johnson came back, Miami has been a very good team, not a "mediocre" one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saratoga2 View Post
    I won't quibble with your basic premise, that they would have a large height advantage if we start our most effective guards of late. We should have the quickness advantage though. If we substitute Andre for who, Quinn, we get a 6'4" guard who hasn't played well of late and who will still give away 4 inches instead of 6 inches, if Seth were to guard him. The problem is that there is no Duke lineup that will make up for this UNC height afvantage unless coach K is willing to use Michael or Josh at the 3. I therefore favor playing the guys who are doing the best job at the present time and subbing the others as needed.
    Well, using listed heights, Quinn, Seth, Austin give up 4, 5, and 4 inches to the starter they are guarding. Seth, Austin, Andre give up 2, 2, and 4 inches. I would say that's a significant difference, especially on the defensive side.

    On offense, as DukieInBrazil alluded, quickness only helps if you have an advantage once you get past your man. But to the extent that Quinn and Seth have a quickness advantage, they'll probably still be at a disadvantage if they get into the middle of the lane. Given the occasional laissez faire perimeter D played by UNC, I like the all-shooter lineup. I think Seth and Andre can get open threes if guarded by Marshall and Barnes, and Austin should be able to have his way against Bullock at least as much as he would against Barnes. Although, thinking out loud, if Ryan can hit a few threes early and draw one of UNC's bigs out to the perimeter, then we might be able to use a quickness advantage to get into the lane if the player guarding Kelly is to far away to help.

    Having said all that, obviously all five guards are going to play, and Coach K will go with whatever seems to be working. The key will still be defense, especially on Marshall. We'll just have to see how it goes.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobodybutDUKE View Post
    In championship years, teams with outstanding or quality point guards are usually the winners.

    Some names that come to mind: B. Hurley,J. Williams, R. Felton, K. Walker, and there are others.
    Hurley went 5-5 against UNC in his career. Felton went 2-5 against Duke. So I don't know that your axiom has too much merit.

    I'm not sure who K. Walker is, but maybe you mean T. Lawson? His teams went 5-1 against Duke, although it was a relatively down time for the Devils. Jason Williams went 7-1 against UNC, but it was somewhat of a down time for the Heels. So far in his career, Marshall is 1-2 against Duke.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I wish people would stop saying this. Yes, we should have beaten them at home, but since Johnson came back, Miami has been a very good team, not a "mediocre" one.

    Totally agree. Miami has a great inside game with Johnson and some dead eye shooters. Should they make the tourny, they'll be a tough out.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Hurley went 5-5 against UNC in his career. Felton went 2-5 against Duke. So I don't know that your axiom has too much merit.

    I'm not sure who K. Walker is, but maybe you mean T. Lawson? His teams went 5-1 against Duke, although it was a relatively down time for the Devils. Jason Williams went 7-1 against UNC, but it was somewhat of a down time for the Heels. So far in his career, Marshall is 1-2 against Duke.
    I used mostly Duke,UNC point guard referrals, but I was trying to make the point of the point guard position
    importance between quality teams or any team for that matter. I wasn't really trying to bring back Duke/UNC
    series match ups, but rather NCAA Championship winners of the past. I was trying to show the true importance
    of the point guard in college basketball. Duke/UNC have won their share of championships so therefore the point
    guards of some of those teams were used. K. Walker is Kemba Walker of last years UConn team.

    Not saying Marshall is in any of those players category, but as for the current matchup of teams, his past and
    current play far outshines our point guard by committee and therefore I believe he will be the real key to the
    outcome.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobodybutDUKE View Post
    I used mostly Duke,UNC point guard referrals, but I was trying to make the point of the point guard position importance between quality teams or any team for that matter. I wasn't really trying to bring back Duke/UNC series match ups, but rather NCAA Championship winners of the past. I was trying to show the true importance of the point guard in college basketball. Duke/UNC have won their share of championships so therefore the point guards of some of those teams were used. K. Walker is Kemba Walker of last years UConn team.
    Well, I agree that championship teams often have great point guards. Although plenty of championship teams don't, for example the back-to-back Florida champions. And plenty of great PGs don't win championships (Nash, Kidd, Stockton, to name a few). A lot of championship teams have great combo guards (and personally I would put Kemba Walker and Jason Williams in this category, along with Chalmers of 2008 Kansas and McNamara of 2003 Syracuse, and arguably Jon Scheyer of 2010 Duke). Ultimately, I think the most accurate thing to say is championship teams often have great players, and let it go at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by nobodybutDUKE View Post
    Not saying Marshall is in any of those players category, but as for the current matchup of teams, his past and current play far outshines our point guard by committee and therefore I believe he will be the real key to the outcome.
    See, now you're contradicting yourself. First you say you didn't mean that great PGs win their matchups in the Duke/UNC series, and now you seem to be saying the opposite.

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