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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Los Angeles

    Our Defense vs. Maryland (and a few numbers)

    While I did not chart this game with the same degree of specificity that I have others, nevertheless I did make some fairly detailed notes on what I saw happening defensively. I do have the stop % charts below too.

    I think our defense this game was pretty typical of what we've seen for most of the year. We did some good things - we helped well on the interior. Mostly. We moved our feet on the perimeter. Some. We challenged shots. Usually.

    But the same problems that have plagued us throughout the year reared their heads again.

    I counted at least 12 times that one of our perimeter guys was beaten off the dribble, permitting his man to either get into the lane or to pull up for a jumper. To cite a couple (sorry I don't have exact times for each play -- I just marked down each 4 minute timeout so I know between which timeout each play occurred, but that's all) first, there was a play before the 8 minute timeout in the first half. Seth and Austin allow Howard to split a high doubleteam. Seth recovers, but then just as quickly gets beaten again with the dribble and Howard steams in for the layup. Bad perimeter D twice in one play/possesssion.

    Not to pick on Seth. Austin was victimized a number of times off the dribble. As was Thornton, especially in the second half. In that second half, the Terps had a stretch starting around the 8:30 mark or so where Stoglin attacked Thornton, mostly off the dribble, on 6 out of 8 possessions. Ty forced a couple of tough shots, had one close call go against him, but also required help from the bigs several times and once Austin was playing too far off of his own man as Stoglin drove, and the kick resulted in a hoop from Austin's man.

    We also got beaten 3 times on backdoors/overplays -- once each by Austin, Andre, and Ty.

    The perimeter D overall was not great, in my opinion.

    I was interested in looking at instances of apparently poor effort, focus, and decisionmaking in help situations. There were a lot of those, especially the latter.

    Examples: effort. I wrote down two. One, at approx 14:00 of the first half, Andre got screened high, but he just didn't make a strong effort to fight through it and challenge the jump shot, which went in. I wrote down another one, at approx the 5 minute mark of the first half, where Austin was just very slow coming around a baseline screen and did not appear to be making anywhere close to max effort to do so. We were lucky the Maryland player just missed the open shot. But still.

    Focus: I wrote down 3. One, at around 2:00 of the first half, went like this: Mason did a good job staying in front of his man as he drove to the hoop from outside. He had it covered. But Andre didn't stay with his own man, permitting Mason's man to drop it off to him for a hoop. What Andre did was lose sight of his man, and he wasn't helping either. He just lost attention.

    Then, at around 16:30 of the second half, on a Maryland in-bounds play, Seth inexplicably just stopped guarding his man. He also had turned his head, throwing him off when he regained attention, and ended up getting easily faked out, leaving him open for an easy 3 in the corner.

    Finally, at around 8:00 of the second half, our whole defense just looked confused and out of position. Seth shaded into the lane, properly, to help on an uncovered big, but the pass then went to his man who bounced that ridiculous bouncy 3 pointer in. Nobody really seemed to know where they were on this play.

    Then: poor decisions in help defense situations. There were a lot. I counted 7 or 8 that I wrote down, and could've written down more. Example from early, around 18:00 of the 1st half: Miles fails to switch on a high screen with Andre. This results in a drive to the hoop. Mason has to help, which is good, but then Austin needed to move down to cover Mason's man. He didn't move down, enabling a dump-off for a dunk.

    Another example: 1155 of first half. Maryland drives into the lane against Miles' defense. Ryan helps inside, everything is clogged up now, but the Terp finds a way to drop it off to Ryan's man for the hoop. It was a good interior pass, but Ryan didn't need to help on the play. Miles had him covered. This was some combination of poor communication and a poor decision by Ryan.

    Not to pick on Austin, but last example: very next play after the 1155 play. Thornton plays poor position D, allowing his man to dribble easily into the lane. Miles helps, leaving his man open for the dump-off. But Austin utterly failed to provide help from the weakside on the play, resulting in a foul and 2 shots for Maryland. Poor defensive execution and awareness.

    The other thing I really noticed is how few turnovers we forced. I know the box score says eight, but really a number of those were charges taken, a moving screen or two, that sort of thing. In terms of pure turnovers, I only counted four: 1) Austin's steal around 6:00 or so of the first half, 2) the above-mentioned fumble of an interior pass by them underneath that we picked up, 3) Len fumbling a lob, leading to a loose ball that we recovered, and 4) Mason's deflection of a perimeter pass that Austin then picked up midway through the 2nd half. That's it. And only two of those were steals we made on the perimeter giving us an opportunity to run. Two the whole game! Hard to believe, really.

    OK here's the stop % chart for this game. I'll try to get the cumulative chart up a little later, though Kedsy has been doing an excellent job of updating those for me and for the benefit of everyone, so if you're so inclined, Keds, go for it!

    Stops Hoops Stop %
    Curry 29 25 54%
    Rivers 32 26 55%
    Dawkins 17 20 46%
    Mason 29 20 59%
    Thornton 30 19 61%
    Kelly 22 17 56%
    Miles 15 18 45%
    Cook
    Gbinije
    Hairston 6 5 55%
    TEAM 36 30 55%























    Pretty impressive numbers for Tyler and for Mason. I'm a little surprised at Tyler's numbers given how often Stoglin beat him one-on-one, but he did get some decent help from the bigs and sometimes even when Stoglin did beat him, Ty did manage to contest shots, and some of them obviously Stoglin just missed.

    As for Mason, a ton has been said in other threads about how well he played offensively. He did it on both ends. If the kid was to play like this consistently, he wouldn't be all-ACC. He'd be an all-American ballplayer. Just terrific.

    Miles? Weird numbers because I only found him responsible for one hoop (early second half), one time where he shared "blame" 3 ways with Mason and Andre (early first half) and once where he fouled and they made a free throw. Yet other Maryland guys scored an awful lot when Miles was on the court. Not consistent with his play this season at all, but given that he also had subpar numbers against FSU, it bears watching. Hope it's not any kind of trend, and I doubt it is.

    Dawkins? Perhaps what was going on defensively when he was in there vs. when Thornton was in there explains the disparity in playing time, especially second half playing time, between the two guys.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    San Francisco
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    While I did not chart this game with the same degree of specificity that I have others, nevertheless I did make some fairly detailed notes on what I saw happening defensively. I do have the stop % charts below too.

    I think our defense this game was pretty typical of what we've seen for most of the year. We did some good things - we helped well on the interior. Mostly. We moved our feet on the perimeter. Some. We challenged shots. Usually.

    But the same problems that have plagued us throughout the year reared their heads again.

    I counted at least 12 times that one of our perimeter guys was beaten off the dribble, permitting his man to either get into the lane or to pull up for a jumper. To cite a couple (sorry I don't have exact times for each play -- I just marked down each 4 minute timeout so I know between which timeout each play occurred, but that's all) first, there was a play before the 8 minute timeout in the first half. Seth and Austin allow Howard to split a high doubleteam. Seth recovers, but then just as quickly gets beaten again with the dribble and Howard steams in for the layup. Bad perimeter D twice in one play/possesssion.

    Not to pick on Seth. Austin was victimized a number of times off the dribble. As was Thornton, especially in the second half. In that second half, the Terps had a stretch starting around the 8:30 mark or so where Stoglin attacked Thornton, mostly off the dribble, on 6 out of 8 possessions. Ty forced a couple of tough shots, had one close call go against him, but also required help from the bigs several times and once Austin was playing too far off of his own man as Stoglin drove, and the kick resulted in a hoop from Austin's man.

    We also got beaten 3 times on backdoors/overplays -- once each by Austin, Andre, and Ty.

    The perimeter D overall was not great, in my opinion.

    I was interested in looking at instances of apparently poor effort, focus, and decisionmaking in help situations. There were a lot of those, especially the latter.

    Examples: effort. I wrote down two. One, at approx 14:00 of the first half, Andre got screened high, but he just didn't make a strong effort to fight through it and challenge the jump shot, which went in. I wrote down another one, at approx the 5 minute mark of the first half, where Austin was just very slow coming around a baseline screen and did not appear to be making anywhere close to max effort to do so. We were lucky the Maryland player just missed the open shot. But still.

    Focus: I wrote down 3. One, at around 2:00 of the first half, went like this: Mason did a good job staying in front of his man as he drove to the hoop from outside. He had it covered. But Andre didn't stay with his own man, permitting Mason's man to drop it off to him for a hoop. What Andre did was lose sight of his man, and he wasn't helping either. He just lost attention.

    Then, at around 16:30 of the second half, on a Maryland in-bounds play, Seth inexplicably just stopped guarding his man. He also had turned his head, throwing him off when he regained attention, and ended up getting easily faked out, leaving him open for an easy 3 in the corner.

    Finally, at around 8:00 of the second half, our whole defense just looked confused and out of position. Seth shaded into the lane, properly, to help on an uncovered big, but the pass then went to his man who bounced that ridiculous bouncy 3 pointer in. Nobody really seemed to know where they were on this play.

    Then: poor decisions in help defense situations. There were a lot. I counted 7 or 8 that I wrote down, and could've written down more. Example from early, around 18:00 of the 1st half: Miles fails to switch on a high screen with Andre. This results in a drive to the hoop. Mason has to help, which is good, but then Austin needed to move down to cover Mason's man. He didn't move down, enabling a dump-off for a dunk.

    Another example: 1155 of first half. Maryland drives into the lane against Miles' defense. Ryan helps inside, everything is clogged up now, but the Terp finds a way to drop it off to Ryan's man for the hoop. It was a good interior pass, but Ryan didn't need to help on the play. Miles had him covered. This was some combination of poor communication and a poor decision by Ryan.

    Not to pick on Austin, but last example: very next play after the 1155 play. Thornton plays poor position D, allowing his man to dribble easily into the lane. Miles helps, leaving his man open for the dump-off. But Austin utterly failed to provide help from the weakside on the play, resulting in a foul and 2 shots for Maryland. Poor defensive execution and awareness.

    The other thing I really noticed is how few turnovers we forced. I know the box score says eight, but really a number of those were charges taken, a moving screen or two, that sort of thing. In terms of pure turnovers, I only counted four: 1) Austin's steal around 6:00 or so of the first half, 2) the above-mentioned fumble of an interior pass by them underneath that we picked up, 3) Len fumbling a lob, leading to a loose ball that we recovered, and 4) Mason's deflection of a perimeter pass that Austin then picked up midway through the 2nd half. That's it. And only two of those were steals we made on the perimeter giving us an opportunity to run. Two the whole game! Hard to believe, really.

    OK here's the stop % chart for this game. I'll try to get the cumulative chart up a little later, though Kedsy has been doing an excellent job of updating those for me and for the benefit of everyone, so if you're so inclined, Keds, go for it!

    Stops Hoops Stop %
    Curry 29 25 54%
    Rivers 32 26 55%
    Dawkins 17 20 46%
    Mason 29 20 59%
    Thornton 30 19 61%
    Kelly 22 17 56%
    Miles 15 18 45%
    Cook
    Gbinije
    Hairston 6 5 55%
    TEAM 36 30 55%























    Pretty impressive numbers for Tyler and for Mason. I'm a little surprised at Tyler's numbers given how often Stoglin beat him one-on-one, but he did get some decent help from the bigs and sometimes even when Stoglin did beat him, Ty did manage to contest shots, and some of them obviously Stoglin just missed.

    As for Mason, a ton has been said in other threads about how well he played offensively. He did it on both ends. If the kid was to play like this consistently, he wouldn't be all-ACC. He'd be an all-American ballplayer. Just terrific.

    Miles? Weird numbers because I only found him responsible for one hoop (early second half), one time where he shared "blame" 3 ways with Mason and Andre (early first half) and once where he fouled and they made a free throw. Yet other Maryland guys scored an awful lot when Miles was on the court. Not consistent with his play this season at all, but given that he also had subpar numbers against FSU, it bears watching. Hope it's not any kind of trend, and I doubt it is.

    Dawkins? Perhaps what was going on defensively when he was in there vs. when Thornton was in there explains the disparity in playing time, especially second half playing time, between the two guys.
    Thanks again Tommy for your outstanding analysis. Interestingly, your observations on the team's lack of focus mirror my own, unscientific perception of the defense. The team can improve dramatically if each individual can reduce the number of times they lose focus on the defensive end and give up a preventable bucket. To be honest, the number of mental lapses was even higher than I thought. Personally, I see this as good news. Mental mistakes are correctable. The team will probably always have a bit of trouble with quick guards (who doesn't) and athletic 3's (again, who doesn't?). But, in my eyes, the biggest concern on the defensive end is the execution.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Thanks for the research. Is it possible the first 10 minutes of the game skewed the next 30 minutes? After all, Maryland only scored about 40 points over that stretch.
    "Just be you. You is Enough."

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    OK here's the stop % chart for this game. I'll try to get the cumulative chart up a little later, though Kedsy has been doing an excellent job of updating those for me and for the benefit of everyone, so if you're so inclined, Keds, go for it!
    You asked and I'm happy to oblige. Quinn, Josh, and Michael had the advantage of not having played against Florida State, which I think would account for Josh's and Quinn's relatively high number. Didn't help Michael, though.

    With that in mind, the only outliers are, in the positive, Tyler, and in the negative, Mason, Andre, and Michael. A lot of people seem to be down on Andre's D, but in this chart Mason's is essentially the same.

    CUMULATIVE STOP CHART, THROUGH MARYLAND GAME (though I don't remember exactly when this started)

    Stops Hoops Stop %
    Curry 207 191 52.0%
    Rivers 222 195 53.2%
    Dawkins 154 154 50.0%
    Mason 187 184 50.4%
    Thornton 146 118 55.3%
    Kelly 181 158 53.4%
    Miles 148 130 53.2%
    Cook 103 88 53.9%
    Gbinije 31 41 43.1%
    Hairston 51 42 54.8%
    TEAM 287 255 53.0%

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh
    For a guy who says he spends waaaay too much time analyzing, it looks like that again ;>)) . Seriously though, thanks again for making another superb effort to help us understand our defensive shortcomings better.
    [redacted] them and the horses they rode in on.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    You asked and I'm happy to oblige. Quinn, Josh, and Michael had the advantage of not having played against Florida State, which I think would account for Josh's and Quinn's relatively high number. Didn't help Michael, though.

    With that in mind, the only outliers are, in the positive, Tyler, and in the negative, Mason, Andre, and Michael. A lot of people seem to be down on Andre's D, but in this chart Mason's is essentially the same.

    CUMULATIVE STOP CHART, THROUGH MARYLAND GAME (though I don't remember exactly when this started)

    Stops Hoops Stop %
    Curry 207 191 52.0%
    Rivers 222 195 53.2%
    Dawkins 154 154 50.0%
    Mason 187 184 50.4%
    Thornton 146 118 55.3%
    Kelly 181 158 53.4%
    Miles 148 130 53.2%
    Cook 103 88 53.9%
    Gbinije 31 41 43.1%
    Hairston 51 42 54.8%
    TEAM 287 255 53.0%
    I would think (without looking) that the FSU game hurt Mason's numbers. Mason and Miles played poorly on defense in that game. GoDuke!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by jv001 View Post
    I would think (without looking) that the FSU game hurt Mason's numbers. Mason and Miles played poorly on defense in that game. GoDuke!
    The FSU game hurt everybody's numbers.

  8. #8
    The front page article about Mason's play vs MD (which was quite good and complimentary of MP II) embedded a video regarding Dre's (horrendous) D, it's worth a watch just to get a feel for how bad it was in that game. As Tommy pointed out, some of it was just lack of attention, but at least on one occasion maybe two, Dre went for a steal, missed it, and got torched. One time, he just fell down getting screened, which isn't entirely his fault due to the screen, and another time he just flat out fell down/slipped. Not sure i've seen a worse defensive effort ever.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    The front page article about Mason's play vs MD (which was quite good and complimentary of MP II) embedded a video regarding Dre's (horrendous) D, it's worth a watch just to get a feel for how bad it was in that game. As Tommy pointed out, some of it was just lack of attention, but at least on one occasion maybe two, Dre went for a steal, missed it, and got torched. One time, he just fell down getting screened, which isn't entirely his fault due to the screen, and another time he just flat out fell down/slipped. Not sure i've seen a worse defensive effort ever.
    I think you could make anyone look bad if you cherry-picked all their poor defensive plays. Like you say, he missed on a steal at one point, poor decision, but not lack of effort. Also, when he fell, I don't think it was lack of effort. I believe everyone makes defensive miscues every game. Nobody is perfect. When the team (including Andre) starts making fewer of them, and/or is better at communicating, the team defense will pick up. For the defense to work at its best, it has to be ok for someone to make a mistake, because he has four teammates ready to help him out. The team is not at that stage yet, but hopefully will get there.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    The front page article about Mason's play vs MD (which was quite good and complimentary of MP II) embedded a video regarding Dre's (horrendous) D, it's worth a watch just to get a feel for how bad it was in that game. As Tommy pointed out, some of it was just lack of attention, but at least on one occasion maybe two, Dre went for a steal, missed it, and got torched. One time, he just fell down getting screened, which isn't entirely his fault due to the screen, and another time he just flat out fell down/slipped. Not sure i've seen a worse defensive effort ever.
    Personally, I thought that article was atrocious. I ranted against it in another thread, though, so I won't go off here.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Personally, I thought that article was atrocious. I ranted against it in another thread, though, so I won't go off here.
    I'm sure that Andre's defense in any game was not for a lack of effort. If that was the case, Coach K would have cut his minutes more than he has. Lack of focus is Andre's problem, but he's not the only one. All of our guys have been guilty of not giving help defense at times. So to single Andre out like they did is not appropriate, imo. It's no secret that our defense as been sub-par this year but our guys don't need to be slammed like that article did Andre. Light SJU up tomorrow young man. GoDuke!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by jv001 View Post
    Light SJU up tomorrow young man. GoDuke!
    I hope Dre takes THAT message to heart. I hope he comes out angry, and on fire. Kinda like some mythical figure somehow related to the mascot of the team, what would that be again?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by NSDukeFan View Post
    I think you could make anyone look bad if you cherry-picked all their poor defensive plays.
    Absolutely. I'm not one to say Andre is a stud defensively player because I don't think that would be a true statement. The video did cherry-pick plays, and even those presented were not all bad defensive plays from Andre. Some were, but some were certainly not bad. He forced a tough shot in one or two of those, and in another he was back on his heels and certainly couldn't do much. Definitely a bit over the top, imho. Besides all of that, in the Maryland game none of our guards were stellar on defense. It was an overall poor performance, especially with regards to allowing the Maryland guards to penetrate, seemingly at will most of the night. But my initial impressions as I watched match up with the OP's point (excellent post, btw). I think many of the issues are more than correctable and I'm still holding out hope we can shore up the defense as we approach February and, more importantly, March!

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC

    Anticipation!

    I think the main problem for Andre is that he gets caught watching the ball and takes his eyes off his man. I believe he is so intent (like all our guards) in going for the steal and break out that he loses sight of his man. There are not many college guards that can contain dribble penetration 100% of the time. The key is funneling your man to a bad place on the court and letting help come. But communication is a must in our defense and from what I've seen it's not as good as it used to be. GoDuke!

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