2012 Olympic Team

[Billy Dat]

Simmons weighs in:
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...estions-part-2

20. What's been the most entertaining under-the-radar subplot of the 2011-12 season?

Even if it's another topic that needs to be blown out into its own column, let's quickly address the shadow of the 2012 Olympics and the three sub-questions it has spawned:

• Which 12 players are getting picked?
• Which five players are starting?
• Why are we pretending this doesn't matter to every NBA star when it clearly does?

We know LeBron, Wade, Kobe, Howard, Rose, Paul, Carmelo, Durant and Love are making the team; we know LeBron and Howard are definitely starting; and that's all we know. That means three roster spots and three starting spots are up for grabs, a juicy little subplot that hangs over the court like a thought bubble every time LaMarcus Aldridge and Blake Griffin battle this season, or Kobe and Wade, or Durant and Carmelo, or Paul and Rose, or Paul and Westbrook, or Aldridge and Griffin …

Here's the best example from this season (that I've witnessed, anyway): When Chicago played the Clippers right after Christmas, Rose and Paul traded punches like heavyweights for three quarters. At least five or six times after Paul made a play, Rose demanded the inbounds pass and tore down the court to answer him. You could tell Rose had something to prove — that he was the reigning MVP, that he owned a starting spot in London, that maybe a month of "Where's Chris Paul going?" hype shouldn't have mattered as much as it did. He torched the Clippers down the stretch, put away the game, then left room for one last ankle-breaking crossover in garbage time (finished with a gorgeous alley-oop pass for a Gibson dunk) before getting pulled and defiantly stomping back to Chicago's bench. If you were there, you knew this went deeper than basketball. Derrick Rose did everything short of standing on the scorer's table and holding up his point guard world championship belt.

Anyway, London's starting five looks like Rose, Kobe (the "token veteran" starter who also happens to be outplaying Wade right now), Durant (a heavy favorite after Carmelo's early swoon),9 LeBron (locked in) and Howard (locked in). Note to everyone who loves Spain in an upset pick: Rose-Kobe-Durant-LeBron-Howard double as our first-team All-NBA squad if the season ended today. It's the most loaded USA Hoops starting lineup of all time. Just remember that when you're talking yourself into betraying the country with a "Spain +600" gold medal pick.

As for Coach K's all-important second unit (remember, he plays 10 guys internationally), it's looking like Paul, Carmelo, Wade, Love and Tyson Chandler would be the favorites barring something crazy happening (like an injury, or Carmelo playing himself off this team). That leaves two more spots available for Griffin (the people's choice), LaMarcus Aldridge (a bigger body and a more logical choice than Griffin), Andre Iguodala (defense defense defense), Deron Williams (backcourt depth), Westbrook (ditto), Curry (long-range shooting), Chauncey Billups (veteran leadership) and Dr. Renaldo Balkman (chemist). If we're picking a basketball team and making sure we're covering every potential situation, then Aldridge and Iguodala should probably make it. If we're picking an All-Star team, then Westbrook and Griffin should go if only for their athleticism and garbage-time heroics (and the distinct possibility of Griffin trumping the Carter/Weis dunk). There's no easy answer, just like there's no easy answer with anything about this team.

In 1992, we knew the hierarchy: Michael leading the way, Charles and Scottie flanking him, Larry and Magic as the veterans, everyone else falling in line. In 2008, same thing: Kobe leading the way, LeBron and Wade flanking him, Kidd as the veteran, everyone else falling in line. There's a different feel to 2012, with everyone constantly battling for territory, turf and respect. Even watching that Clippers-Oklahoma City game on Monday, as Paul and Westbrook traded haymakers, I found myself thinking about London again. Is there more going on here? Are there telepathic messages being sent? Maybe it's a bad omen for our 2012 gold medal hopes, but that ongoing competitive edge — an Olympian one-upsmanship, if you will — is the cherry on the hot fudge sundae of an already compelling NBA season. Good times.

[superdave]

Simmons weighs in:
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...estions-part-2


We know LeBron, Wade, Kobe, Howard, Rose, Paul, Carmelo, Durant and Love are making the team; we know LeBron and Howard are definitely starting; and that's all we know. That means three roster spots and three starting spots are up for grabs, a juicy little subplot that hangs over the court like a thought bubble every time LaMarcus Aldridge and Blake Griffin battle this season, or Kobe and Wade, or Durant and Carmelo, or Paul and Rose, or Paul and Westbrook, or Aldridge and Griffin …

As for Coach K's all-important second unit (remember, he plays 10 guys internationally), it's looking like Paul, Carmelo, Wade, Love and Tyson Chandler would be the favorites barring something crazy happening (like an injury, or Carmelo playing himself off this team). That leaves two more spots available for Griffin (the people's choice), LaMarcus Aldridge (a bigger body and a more logical choice than Griffin), Andre Iguodala (defense defense defense), Deron Williams (backcourt depth), Westbrook (ditto), Curry (long-range shooting), Chauncey Billups (veteran leadership) and Dr. Renaldo Balkman (chemist). If we're picking a basketball team and making sure we're covering every potential situation, then Aldridge and Iguodala should probably make it. If we're picking an All-Star team, then Westbrook and Griffin should go if only for their athleticism and garbage-time heroics (and the distinct possibility of Griffin trumping the Carter/Weis dunk). There's no easy answer, just like there's no easy answer with anything about this team.

Simmons has LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Paul, Rose, Howard, Melo, Durant and Love as definites. That's 9 guys.

Taking what Simmons says and going a step further, there will be three roster spots open for the following battles:

Blake Griffin vs. Lemarcus Aldridge vs. Tyson Chandler (2 of 3 could be chosen)

Deron Williams vs. Russell Westbrook vs. Steph Curry vs. Andre Igoudala (2 of 4 could be chosen)

I personally think an injury or two among the first 9 will open up another spot for this group. Could be Paul's or Kobe's knees, could be something we dont know about.

The other wildcard is if someone shows up to camp not sufficiently buying into the Coach K/Colangelo system. Apparently LeBron had that issue in 2008 and was forced to send his entourage packing or be sent home himself. Could Dwight Howard be that guy this summer, with his NBA future unsettled?

If I am forced to choose from the 7 wild cards above, I'm picking Blake and Westbrook because we'll need them on the team in 2016 when Kobe, Wade, Paul are not up to playing in the offseason any more. That leaves one pick (and two if one of the first 9 drops out). With Durant and James, you dont need Igoudala. With Howard and Love, you could use Chandler to protect the rim over Aldridge who is more scorer than defender/rebounder. I like Steph Curry but think he's undersized to guard the 2 and cannot play D anyway. So I think Simmons is omitting two people we need to think about - first is Eric Gordon who is a bigger and stronger Steph Curry. Second is Greg Monroe who could be our Tyson Chandler of the future and could be a really good offensive cog in international play too. In his 2nd year in the league, Monroe is averaging 16 and 10.

[SilkyJ]

Simmons has LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Paul, Rose, Howard, Melo, Durant and Love as definites. That's 9 guys.

Taking what Simmons says and going a step further, there will be three roster spots open for the following battles:

Blake Griffin vs. Lemarcus Aldridge vs. Tyson Chandler (2 of 3 could be chosen)

Deron Williams vs. Russell Westbrook vs. Steph Curry vs. Andre Igoudala (2 of 4 could be chosen)

As Billy Dat pointed out much earlier, Steph Curry is not on the roster. I'm not sure how Simmons threw him on there and left off Gordon. But anyway, Gordon is a candidate, but as of now Curry is not on the training camp roster...(unless there was a change recently that I missed?)

For those who keep adding names as potentially invited to the tryout (e.g. Steph Curry), I think this list represents the final tryout list. There will only be chances for additions based on injuries or other withdrawals.

I personally think an injury or two among the first 9 will open up another spot for this group. Could be Paul's or Kobe's knees, could be something we dont know about.

Agreed here. Throw in Wade to Paul and Kobe and you never know who's going to roll an ankle or bust up a knee late in the season...and with this condensed sked there is still a lot of unknowns here.

The other wildcard is if someone shows up to camp not sufficiently buying into the Coach K/Colangelo system. Apparently LeBron had that issue in 2008 and was forced to send his entourage packing or be sent home himself. Could Dwight Howard be that guy this summer, with his NBA future unsettled?

I never heard that about Lebron in 2008...link? I really, really, really doubt this happens. All but I think Aldridge and Griffin were on the 08 or 10 teams, so they know the deal.

If I am forced to choose from the 7 wild cards above, I'm picking Blake and Westbrook because we'll need them on the team in 2016 when Kobe, Wade, Paul are not up to playing in the offseason any more.

Are you saying if YOU were making the calls you would pick these guys or this is what you expect K & Co. to pick? B/c K isn't going to pick guys for the final roster thinking "oh we'll need them in 4 years." He's going to pick the best team for this tournament right now.

I agree with Simmons on the 9 locks as I stated earlier, and I contended that K picked 3 PGs 6 Wings and 3 Bigs in both 08 and 10 so I'd expect him to do the same. Not a guarantee, but its a logical formula and since he's done it before its a reasonable place to start.

In the 9 locks we have 2 PGs, 5wings and 2Bigs, so we need to add 1 to each spot theoretically. You added Westbrook and Griffin, I'd say its a toss up b/w Griffin and Chandler and I give the edge to Chandler...Griffin's offensive game does not suit the int'l game that well, and Chandler can fill the rebounder/defender role well.

For the PG spot I also think it could be a tossup b/w D-Williams and Westbrook, but I'll lean to Williams ever so slightly b/c he's a better shooter and Westbrook has had some chemistry issues in the past.

That leaves one pick (and two if one of the first 9 drops out). With Durant and James, you dont need Igoudala. With Howard and Love, you could use Chandler to protect the rim over Aldridge who is more scorer than defender/rebounder. I like Steph Curry but think he's undersized to guard the 2 and cannot play D anyway. So I think Simmons is omitting two people we need to think about - first is Eric Gordon who is a bigger and stronger Steph Curry. Second is Greg Monroe who could be our Tyson Chandler of the future and could be a really good offensive cog in international play too. In his 2nd year in the league, Monroe is averaging 16 and 10.

1st of all: Where in the world did you come up with Greg Monroe? Unless I missed some major announcement, he's not on the roster. 2nd of all, with Howard, Love, Griffin/Chandler we don't need a 4th big body. To complete the formula we need a wing, and I agree with you here: I think it goes to Gordon. He will also fill the designated zone breaker/shooter role.

Iguodala and Gay will be in the mix: Iggy for his defending and Gay for his shooting, but I think they are largely made redundant by Bron, Melo, and Durant, whereas we could use a designated shooter out there.

[Ichabod Drain]

Are you saying if YOU were making the calls you would pick these guys or this is what you expect K & Co. to pick? B/c K isn't going to pick guys for the final roster thinking "oh we'll need them in 4 years." He's going to pick the best team for this tournament right now.

I could honestly see K and co. doing this. I'm not saying they will pick players solely based on youth or anything like that but with the last few guys on the roster it's really a coin flip for who is the best. Any combination could be picked and you could find a legitimate argument for why that combination is the best. Coach K has said numerous times he is interested in establishing a solid US basketball program that can continue to the next coach and group of players. I'm not saying that he will pick the younger players for that reason, but I wouldn't completely rule it out either.

[mkirsh]

Simmons has LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Paul, Rose, Howard, Melo, Durant and Love as definites. That's 9 guys.

Taking what Simmons says and going a step further, there will be three roster spots open for the following battles:

Blake Griffin vs. Lemarcus Aldridge vs. Tyson Chandler (2 of 3 could be chosen)

With Howard and Love, you could use Chandler to protect the rim over Aldridge who is more scorer than defender/rebounder. I like Steph Curry but think he's undersized to guard the 2 and cannot play D anyway.

I think Simmons is leaving out Chris Bosh, who I would expect to have a very good shot to make the team, likely ahead of Griffin or Chandler, based on his versatility (can guard on the perimeter and switch all screens which Coach K likes to do in international play), and prior experience.

[Billy Dat]

Silky - here's the Adrian Wojnarowski article that talks about Lebron almost getting booted off Team USA - this is the only time I have ever seen this written.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slu...eeagency071610

[superdave]

As Billy Dat pointed out much earlier, Steph Curry is not on the roster. I'm not sure how Simmons threw him on there and left off Gordon. But anyway, Gordon is a candidate, but as of now Curry is not on the training camp roster...(unless there was a change recently that I missed?)

Agreed here. Throw in Wade to Paul and Kobe and you never know who's going to roll an ankle or bust up a knee late in the season...and with this condensed sked there is still a lot of unknowns here.

I never heard that about Lebron in 2008...link? I really, really, really doubt this happens. All but I think Aldridge and Griffin were on the 08 or 10 teams, so they know the deal.

Are you saying if YOU were making the calls you would pick these guys or this is what you expect K & Co. to pick? B/c K isn't going to pick guys for the final roster thinking "oh we'll need them in 4 years." He's going to pick the best team for this tournament right now.

I agree with Simmons on the 9 locks as I stated earlier, and I contended that K picked 3 PGs 6 Wings and 3 Bigs in both 08 and 10 so I'd expect him to do the same. Not a guarantee, but its a logical formula and since he's done it before its a reasonable place to start.

In the 9 locks we have 2 PGs, 5wings and 2Bigs, so we need to add 1 to each spot theoretically. You added Westbrook and Griffin, I'd say its a toss up b/w Griffin and Chandler and I give the edge to Chandler...Griffin's offensive game does not suit the int'l game that well, and Chandler can fill the rebounder/defender role well.

For the PG spot I also think it could be a tossup b/w D-Williams and Westbrook, but I'll lean to Williams ever so slightly b/c he's a better shooter and Westbrook has had some chemistry issues in the past.

1st of all: Where in the world did you come up with Greg Monroe? Unless I missed some major announcement, he's not on the roster. 2nd of all, with Howard, Love, Griffin/Chandler we don't need a 4th big body. To complete the formula we need a wing, and I agree with you here: I think it goes to Gordon. He will also fill the designated zone breaker/shooter role.

Iguodala and Gay will be in the mix: Iggy for his defending and Gay for his shooting, but I think they are largely made redundant by Bron, Melo, and Durant, whereas we could use a designated shooter out there.

Yeah, I think Simmons was sloppy in his assessment. He leaves out Eric Gordon and Chris Bosh. I also agree with you that it's likely to be 3 pgs, 6 wings, 3 bigs.

But I think that we should not assume the roster that came out a month ago is final. Someone will drop off almost surely. And they will be replaced for the tryouts and we have a few spots up for grabs. Perhaps it's a good exericise to predict the 4-5 people most like not to show up for tryouts:

1. Wade has missed games this year and is somewhat fragile.
2. Paul and his knees might be a no go.
3. Kobe's knees, wrist and fingers often have trouble. But if he can jog, he's there. He lives for the big stage.
4. Dwight Howard. I dont know why but he's just acting peculiarly and his contract stuff could keep him home.
5. Tyson Chandler has missed 8, 31 and 37 games his last three seasons.
6. Billups is not very good anymore and could bow out under the assumption he would not make it.

If you were to add people to the larger roster to attend tryouts:
PGs: Rondo, Irving, Wall
Wings: You dont really need additional wings with Gay and Iggy attending tryouts.
Bigs: Greg Monroe, Joakim Noah, JaVale McGee, DeAndre Jordan

[SilkyJ]

Silky - here's the Adrian Wojnarowski article that talks about Lebron almost getting booted off Team USA - this is the only time I have ever seen this written.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slu...eeagency071610

What a GREAT article. Don't know how I ever missed that one. Thanks.

Yeah, I think Simmons was sloppy in his assessment. He leaves out Eric Gordon and Chris Bosh. I also agree with you that it's likely to be 3 pgs, 6 wings, 3 bigs.

But I think that we should not assume the roster that came out a month ago is final. Someone will drop off almost surely. And they will be replaced for the tryouts and we have a few spots up for grabs. Perhaps it's a good exericise to predict the 4-5 people most like not to show up for tryouts:

1. Wade has missed games this year and is somewhat fragile.
2. Paul and his knees might be a no go.
3. Kobe's knees, wrist and fingers often have trouble. But if he can jog, he's there. He lives for the big stage.
4. Dwight Howard. I dont know why but he's just acting peculiarly and his contract stuff could keep him home.
5. Tyson Chandler has missed 8, 31 and 37 games his last three seasons.
6. Billups is not very good anymore and could bow out under the assumption he would not make it.

If you were to add people to the larger roster to attend tryouts:
PGs: Rondo, Irving, Wall
Wings: You dont really need additional wings with Gay and Iggy attending tryouts.
Bigs: Greg Monroe, Joakim Noah, JaVale McGee, DeAndre Jordan

A touch exercise to go through, b/c its complete guesswork but everything you say makes sense, except WRT Billups. Chauncey will be at the tryouts if he's healthy. He's a competitor and a veteran and K will ask him to come if only to show these guys the ropes. He may also get the 3rd PG spot even if he's not the most skilled guy for the job b/c K does believe in the value of leadership and having a chemistry guy like that on the team.

WRT to your replacements: Rondo seemed to have issues last go round so don't know if he'd be an addition or not...I'm certainly not an insider at USA bball but felt like there were some issues there. Irving yes, Wall maybe...but I don't think he's ready. Still, he could get a tryout invite.

Agree on the Wings mostly, but Curry could get an invite, if he counts as a SG/wing. All those bigs make sense, and don't rule out Perkins or Bynum, both of whom might be even higher up.

I could honestly see K and co. doing this. I'm not saying they will pick players solely based on youth or anything like that but with the last few guys on the roster it's really a coin flip for who is the best. Any combination could be picked and you could find a legitimate argument for why that combination is the best. Coach K has said numerous times he is interested in establishing a solid US basketball program that can continue to the next coach and group of players. I'm not saying that he will pick the younger players for that reason, but I wouldn't completely rule it out either.

If you really think that, then you're demonstrating how little you know about Coach K, imo. You're right coach has said he wants to establish a solid program and imo he's already that.

Nonetheless, establishing a program means creating pride and a winning mentality for a program that makes young kids and NBA stars want to be associated with the USA bball brand. You need lots of players to make a team and lots of interest to get those players. So it doesn't mean catering to just one or two players. It does not mean giving a 12th roster spot to an up-and-comer just to appease him in the hopes that he'll play a bigger role 4 years later. Coach K doesn't play games. He picks a squad to WIN. All he cares about is winning and winning the right way. No catering to egos. I mean just read the article I quoted at the top of this: he almost cut Lebron james from the 08 team b/c he was too much of a hassle.

If a guy gets a spot its b/c K thinks he's earned it, deserves it, and it will help this team win.

[Ichabod Drain]

If you really think that, then you're demonstrating how little you know about Coach K, imo. You're right coach has said he wants to establish a solid program and imo he's already that.

Nonetheless, establishing a program means creating pride and a winning mentality for a program that makes young kids and NBA stars want to be associated with the USA bball brand. It does NOT mean giving a 12th roster spot to an up-and-comer just to appease him in the hopes that he'll play a bigger role 4 years later. Coach K doesn't play games. He picks a squad to WIN. All he cares about is winning and winning the right way. No catering to the egos of these NBA players. Read the article I quoted at the top of this: he almost cut Lebron james from the08 team b/c he was too much of a hassle.

So yea, I think I can completely rule it out.

The point is he wouldn't be sacrificing anything to choose a younger player for the 12th spot. All of the players listed as trying out are considered the best in the world. The 12th man on this roster is not going to be the difference between silver and gold. It's like looking at two resumes that are almost identical, you have to find some way to differentiate them.

[SilkyJ]

The point is he wouldn't be sacrificing anything to choose a younger player for the 12th spot. All of the players listed as trying out are considered the best in the world. The 12th man on this roster is not going to be the difference between silver and gold. It's like looking at two resumes that are almost identical, you have to find some way to differentiate them.

The point is that what you're suggesting runs counter to K's philosophy. K (and colangelo's) philosophy is to select the best team to win this tournament. Period. They're not thinking about appeasing some guy for something that might happen 4 years down the road.

[Ichabod Drain]

Obviously if an older player is a better player and a better fit for the team he will be selected, I'm no arguing that. I'm talking about when it comes down to selecting between players that it's very difficult to say which one will perform better for the team. It doesn't hurt to take a look at it from an off the court perspective. I don't think that in any way contradicts coach K's win now philosophy.

[superdave]

I'm not sure that adding an up and comer like Wall/Irving over a guy like Billups would be to appease the young guy. I'd think a younger guy might contribute more than Chauncy at this point. Same for a DeAndre Jordan, JaVale McGee or Greg Monroe over Tyson Chandler. But you would have the added benefit in 2014 and 2016 of having a experience among your younger guys.

We've also not discussed Lamar Odom who played really well in 2010.

[rsvman]

Check out the Blake Griffin dunk on Kendrick Perkins. I hope Blake makes the trip to London so he can bump the Vince Carter Olympic dunk from the top spot.

I could be wrong, but it sure seems to me that the last 8-12 inches of elevation on that dunk came because Griffin pushed down on Perkins's shoulders in order to elevate himself high enough for the dunk. Physics argues against a leap off the floor that displays a change in speed of the rise about halfway between the floor and the apex of the jump.

[Dev11]

I don't think any guys get chosen because they might anchor the team in 2016. If that's the thought, then those guys will get chosen in 2014, when the preparation for 2016 begins. 2012 is a culmination of the work that began in the summer of 2010, and I'll be surprised if more than 1 or 2 roster spots are filled by guys who don't already have medals from 2008 or 2010.

One of K and Colangelo made the comment back in 2006 that the Senior Team should be a 3 year commitment, from the Worlds to the Olympics, in each cycle. K is going to step down from the head coach's role after this summer, and some other coach (Boeheim, maybe?) will take over and begin to evaluate talent for 2014. Speaking of which, I wouldn't be surprised if the guys who lead the 2014 team aren't on the Olympic team this time around, the way Durant led the 2010 team and wasn't on the 2008 team. Griffin would be a prime example for this role. Hopefully Kyrie gets a big shot, too.

[SilkyJ]

We've also not discussed Lamar Odom who played really well in 2010.

Good point. I've been thinking the last big spot is b/w Chandler/Griffin with the edge to Chandler...but Odom started ahead of Chandler in '10 at Center so maybe we should be giving him more credit...for some reason my gut just says I'd rather have Chandler as an anchor in the middle, but its not my gut that's making the decision.

[SilkyJ]

Billups could be out for a while with an achilles. While I didn't originally having him making the team over D-will or Westbrook (assuming Rose and Paul are locks), the more I thought about it the more I could see him making it. He would be a key leader and locker room guy, something K would value strongly.

No timetable yet on his return and no word on how severely he hurt his achilles, but I don't think an achilles injury is a quick thing to recover from, no matter how severe.

Check that: Billups is out for the year.

As superdave pointed out, injuries were bound to play in here. Have to continue to keep an eye and see who gets added to the list as well...and really we won't fully know the deal until June when the playoffs are over.

[SilkyJ]

should we add Jeremy Lin to the mix?

[NSDukeFan]

should we add Jeremy Lin to the mix?

or Austin Rivers?

[superdave]

If Carmelo thinks he's been grandfathered into the Olympic team or something, he's kidding himself — Coach K will absolutely cut his arse unless he steps it up. That will be a fun subplot in July.

link

[SilkyJ]

If Carmelo thinks he's been grandfathered into the Olympic team or something, he's kidding himself — Coach K will absolutely cut his arse unless he steps it up. That will be a fun subplot in July.

link

I think if he brings his a-game, and energy, to the tryouts then he'll have a spot. Even if he has a lackluster regular season...but we shall see!