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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by licc85 View Post
    That's exactly my point . . . you can't just compare a player to a legendary player based on the fact that a few aspects of their games are similar. I was waiting on someone to jump on this. Barnes has a good jumper, hes a pretty smart player, and he's about 6'8". . that's basically all I based that comparison on. My point was, you dont compare jabari parker to kobe bryant and grant hill unless hes REALLY freakin good. And I didn't make that comparison, Coach K did.
    Worth noting-- K did not publicly make this comparison (he is not allowed to comment in public about a recruit). He made it when talking to Jabari. In that context, it must be viewed as part of K's "recruiting pitch" to the kid. "Come here and I could see you developing into another Grant Hill or, another kid who really wanted to play for me and who I have enjoyed coaching on the Olympic team, Kobe Bryant."

    Now, I don't doubt that Jabari is a heck of a good ballplayer and I am not saying that K way lying or exaggerating when he made those comparisons to the kid. But, I doubt anyone pitches an elite prospect by saying, "Come here and you could be another Daniel Ewing or Chris Carrawell." Dan and Chris both had fine careers and I am huge fans of what they did here, but when you are pitching a top tier recruit you are talking about making them into an NBA star and dangling images of lottery pick/max contract money in front of them.

    So, just sayin', maybe we take the Grant and Kobe comparisons with a tiny grain of salt.

    --Jason "then again, from what I have heard/read/youtube'd comparing Jabari to future NBA HOFamers is not at all unreasonable" Evans
    Don't ask me why, but my mother is making me Tweet. Says it will be good for my career. So, follow my ramblings, mostly on the film industry, @TVFilmTalk

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter View Post
    Nonsense! I'm already practicing to analyze his body language, attire and facial expressions when he comes to watch Duke-Carolina.
    Oh, that's so basic.

    We need to start analyzing his tweets. That's where the meat it.

    Maybe we can get Ryan Seacrest to help us out.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Are you calling Brian Zoubek a reasonable facsimile of an elite big man? That's certainly not what people thought at the time. And despite Z's incredible defense, screen-setting, and offensive rebounding in 2010, I'd argue Mason last year was more of an "elite big man" than Z ever was.

    If you're not talking about Zoubek, then I don't understand your statement. We had Carlos Boozer in 2002 and Shelden Williams from 2003 to 2006, plus Josh McRoberts in 2007-2008, who coming out of high school was considered at least as elite as Julius Randle is now.

    EDIT: I see you clarified in your latest post. Still, I disagree. Zoubek played great down the stretch in 2010. That didn't make him an "elite big man" in the sense we're talking about now. Also, the ballyhooed Brand-Boozer-Landlord trio played 9 seasons for us and won one championship (although they did make 3 Final Fours). And in that one championship, Boozer was the 3rd or maybe even 4th option on offense (and wasn't that great a defender, either).



    In what way is Barnes's playing style like Bird's? Larry Bird was an incredible passer and great defender who made his teammates better and could score any way he pleased. His best attributes were his court vision and uncanny understanding of the game. So far, at least, Barnes is basically a good shooter. I'd argue people don't make that comparison because the players are nothing alike.
    This nit picking a little but Bird was an average defender at best. He compensated pretty well for his lack of quickness by rebounding well and playing the passing lanes but he had problems staying with athletic small forwards. I remember McHale would actually guard Worthy and Bird would play off Perkins when they played the Lakers.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter View Post
    But I do think he'll be a stud, for what it's worth, would love to have him.
    For what it's worth, me too. I think the most important thing we can do at this point for 2013-14 is recruit another player who can defend the 5 and contribute good minutes there. If Randle can do that and Parker can't, then I think Randle's the more important recruit. If neither (or both) can do that, then I'll take either (or both) and gut it out at the 5 with Marshall and whoever's able to back him up.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    This nit picking a little but Bird was an average defender at best. He compensated pretty well for his lack of quickness by rebounding well and playing the passing lanes but he had problems staying with athletic small forwards. I remember McHale would actually guard Worthy and Bird would play off Perkins when they played the Lakers.
    I agree that Bird lacked defensive quickness, but I always thought he most made up for it with his superior court savvy. I almost didn't mention his defense in my original post, but to me Bird was a better defender than Barnes will ever be, so I went with it. Having said that, I will accept your nit and apologize for overstating Bird's defensive prowess.

    To insert a modicum of thread relevance, I hope and believe that Jabari Parker could be a much better defender than either of them.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I agree that Bird lacked defensive quickness, but I always thought he most made up for it with his superior court savvy. I almost didn't mention his defense in my original post, but to me Bird was a better defender than Barnes will ever be, so I went with it. Having said that, I will accept your nit and apologize for overstating Bird's defensive prowess.

    To insert a modicum of thread relevance, I hope and believe that Jabari Parker could be a much better defender than either of them.
    I think it was Charles Barkley who said something to the effect of, "I always like playing against Larry because then I knew I wouldn't be the worst defender on the floor."

    Bird did make some memorable plays on the defensive end but I don't see any reason why Barnes couldn't end up being better.

  7. #127
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    Nanjing, China
    Another reason I think Jabari is such an important recruit is for the marketing potential he could swing for Duke Basketball. I don't think it's any stretch to say that he could be the most marketable Duke player Since Grant Hill. Everything you hear about him screams "likeable." He's humble, he's a hard worker, a good student, a devout mormon, and generally a fun loving kid who doesn't particularly care for the spotlight. Oh, and he's also REALLY good at basketball. He's like a mormon Derrick Rose.

    I mean, don't get me wrong, my favorite player in the NBA is Kyrie Irving, and I don't think there's a more likable player in the league right now, but Kyrie only only played 11 games for us, and I'm not 100% sure that Duke is the first thing people think when they see Kyrie. Furthermore, Kyrie did not win a national championship or participate in the ACC tournament for us.

    My point is, if Jabari Parker comes to Duke, has a short, but visibile career here and wins a NC, and then goes on the dominate the NBA for 13+ years, I just think it would even further secure our brand as the premier basketball program in the country. I mean, how many signature guys do we have that are/were stars at the next level and most people, regardless of their affiliations can't help but like? I think the list is pretty short: Grant Hill, Kyrie Irving. That's about it really. I mean, I think Nolan Smith could be in this category, but he just doesn't project to be an All-Star at the next level. UNC will always have Jordan, and probably about 5 or 6 other guys in that category. Heck, MJ's probably the ONLY reason they were able to steal Barnes away from us. This make wonder every day what it would have been like if we had gotten Kobe for a year.

    I realize Duke will probably be fine either way, but having a potential future NBA hall of famer (and I know this is unbelievably premature, but it's all speculation anyways) play a year at Duke is only going to help us immensely in the future, especially after Coach K retires. All the kids who watch Jabari in the NBA will know in the back of their mind that he's a Duke product, and it may swing a couple of elite recruits our way. I'm thinking long term here.
    Last edited by licc85; 08-03-2012 at 11:23 PM.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post

    EDIT: I see you clarified in your latest post. Still, I disagree. Zoubek played great down the stretch in 2010. That didn't make him an "elite big man" in the sense we're talking about now. Also, the ballyhooed Brand-Boozer-Landlord trio played 9 seasons for us and won one championship (although they did make 3 Final Fours). And in that one championship, Boozer was the 3rd or maybe even 4th option on offense (and wasn't that great a defender.
    I mean, obviously it's cool if we disagree. Just ask my fiancée! I maintain Zoubek - an excellent rebounder and shot blocker, the best offensive rebounder in the country, an efficient offensive complement and a crucial piece to a championship team - was playing at an elite level. You don't. It's all good in the hood, people define eliteness differently. I, for one, would not put Mason there. Here's hoping I can next year.

    Here's the thing: When you have an elite talent down low, you may not win a championship - kind of a high bar - but you're always legitimately in the mix. Those teams with Brand, I mean, both of them could have - should have! - won. (I still contend that if he hadn't broken his foot in '98, they win that year.) Boozer was a key part of one title team, and they had a legit shot the year after when he led the country in fg%, but they suffered a massive upset. Duke had a very real shot to win a title at least 2 of Sheldon's seasons at Duke - his foul troubles after Okafor picked up his 2 still haunt me. And Duke made the move from good but not great, to championship caliber when Zoubek made the leap himself.

    I'm not saying Randle is unequivocally on that level with all those guys. But he's good, and on the off chance he fills in about 20 pounds or so and becomes that player, Duke doesn't have that element going forward. It'd be nice to, is all.

    Sorry to do all this in a Jabari thread, by the way. I'd totally take that guy too.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by licc85 View Post
    My point is, if Jabari Parker comes to Duke, has a short, but visibile career here and wins a NC, and then goes on the dominate the NBA for 13+ years, I just think it would even further secure our brand as the premier basketball program in the country.
    Not asking for much, are we?



    Also, I have to ask: why'd you pick 13+ instead of some other number?

    Quote Originally Posted by licc85 View Post
    I realize Duke will probably be fine either way, but having a potential future NBA hall of famer (and I know this is unbelievably premature, but it's all speculation anyways) play a year at Duke is only going to help us immensely in the future, especially after Coach K retires.
    I think we should let the kid finish high school before we induct him into the Hall of Fame.

    That aside, I'm not sure I agree with your logic. Grant Hill played ten years after Jordan, was an All Star and possible potential NBA hall of famer, and is even still in the League, and I don't feel like we have a current recruiting bump because of him.

    Jordan still helps UNC because many consider him the best player ever and he developed a very strong brand more or less apart from his basketball greatness. The other greats from Jordan's era, Bird (Indiana State), Magic (Michigan State), Olajuwon (Houston), Barkley (Auburn), etc., don't seem to be drawing high school studs to their teams after all these years. I don't think it's reasonable to think that Jabari Parker will be so good that 30 years from now kids will want to go to Duke to "be like Jabari."

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Not asking for much, are we?
    I said "if," didn't I? The important part is that he's visible (unlike Kyrie) and we win a lot of games while he's here. With the team that we could potentially have in 2 years, I don't think a NC is being unrealistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Also, I have to ask: why'd you pick 13+ instead of some other number?
    I dunno, most hall of fame caliber players play at an all-star level in the league for about 10-14 years and then their body breaks down. That's just what happens. What do you want me to say, 20+ years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    That aside, I'm not sure I agree with your logic. Grant Hill played ten years after Jordan, was an All Star and possible potential NBA hall of famer, and is even still in the League, and I don't feel like we have a current recruiting bump because of him.
    Coach K is currently using Grant Hill's status as a former Duke player to recruit this guy named Jabari Parker. He's pretty good.
    Last edited by licc85; 08-04-2012 at 12:00 PM.

  11. #131
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    Chicago
    Quote Originally Posted by magjayran View Post
    I think it was Charles Barkley who said something to the effect of, "I always like playing against Larry because then I knew I wouldn't be the worst defender on the floor."

    Bird did make some memorable plays on the defensive end but I don't see any reason why Barnes couldn't end up being better.
    Bird was not a good man to man defender. Worthy often abused him in the great Lakers-Celtics matchups of the 80s. But Bird wasn't bad off the ball, as his court sense and anticipation led to a decent number of steals, some in very clutch situations. He was also an outstanding defensive rebounder for a SF.

    I think Barnes has a chance to be a better man to man defender than Bird if he commits to it. But I can't see him ever being as good off the ball or on the boards.

  12. #132
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    Chicago
    Quote Originally Posted by licc85 View Post
    Coach K is currently using Grant Hill's status as a former Duke player to recruit this guy named Jabari Parker. He's pretty good.
    I live in the Chicago area and have seen Jabari play several times and have read and heard much about his personality, both on and off the court.

    He is very similar to Grant in many respects. On the court, Jabari is extremely versatile, fluid and unselfish. He sometimes needs prodding to take games over. He is not flashy but will periodically make breathtaking plays. Jabari is also very bright, personable and articulate. Sound familiar? I think there was a little more to K invokng Grant with Jabari than with other recruits, even one as talented as, say, Rodney Hood.

    I agree that calling him the best HS player since LeBron was likely an exaggeration. But he is a great player and great kid who would be a huge asset for Duke no matter how long he stays, and no matter who else is on the roster with him.

  13. #133
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    Chicago, IL
    Quote Originally Posted by luvdahops View Post
    I live in the Chicago area and have seen Jabari play several times and have read and heard much about his personality, both on and off the court.

    He is very similar to Grant in many respects. On the court, Jabari is extremely versatile, fluid and unselfish. He sometimes needs prodding to take games over. He is not flashy but will periodically make breathtaking plays. Jabari is also very bright, personable and articulate. Sound familiar? I think there was a little more to K invokng Grant with Jabari than with other recruits, even one as talented as, say, Rodney Hood.

    I agree that calling him the best HS player since LeBron was likely an exaggeration. But he is a great player and great kid who would be a huge asset for Duke no matter how long he stays, and no matter who else is on the roster with him.
    Agree with all of the above. I have also seen Jabari play on multiple occasions and have heard a ton about him and his family from the high school, Duke, and Michigan State perspectives.

    Honestly I think he has some Carmelo in his game, but it's very hard to not think of Grant when you watch him play. Tremendous kid and whichever program is fortunate enough to add him will add a new "face of the program" even though he's likely to be there only a year.

    dukemsu

  14. #134
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    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Bolding by me.

    Yeah, what would be great would be to see Mason do something like going for 17pts and 12rebs in a really big game against one of the elite big men in the country. *

    Or maybe if he could do something dominant like go for 23 and 12 in an ACC road game. **

    It would be great if we could count on him to do something like 16 and 13 or 15 and 17 in nationally televised games against big time non-conference opponents. ***

    It would be really nice if we could get a line like 19 and 12 out of him in an NCAA tourney game too. ****

    *- like he did against Kansas in the Maui championship versus Thomas Robinson
    **- like he did at Maryland
    ***- like he did at Temple and versus St John's
    ****- like he did against Lehigh

    Ok, sarcasm mode off.

    Folks, I don't mean to divert a threat about Jabari Parker (don't even get me started on the absurdity of the "luxury recruit" comment) but Mason deserves more love. I watched him in person at some Duke games last year and he was working his tail off for position and not getting rewarded very much by our guards. I think that if we used him more, as I expect we will this coming season, he would consistently put up the kind of dominating numbers he showed us glimpses of in many games last year.

    --Jason "important caveat about this post-- I generally agree with pretty much everything Starter says. This post is a real outlier" Evans
    Get. Mason. The ball.
    "With seven national titles and 20 Final Fours in the 64-team NCAA Tournament era, Duke and UNC have had more playoff success than any other CONFERENCE." - Al Featherston

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Bolding by me.

    Yeah, what would be great would be to see Mason do something like going for 17pts and 12rebs in a really big game against one of the elite big men in the country. *

    Or maybe if he could do something dominant like go for 23 and 12 in an ACC road game. **

    It would be great if we could count on him to do something like 16 and 13 or 15 and 17 in nationally televised games against big time non-conference opponents. ***

    It would be really nice if we could get a line like 19 and 12 out of him in an NCAA tourney game too. ****

    *- like he did against Kansas in the Maui championship versus Thomas Robinson
    **- like he did at Maryland
    ***- like he did at Temple and versus St John's
    ****- like he did against Lehigh

    Ok, sarcasm mode off.

    Folks, I don't mean to divert a threat about Jabari Parker (don't even get me started on the absurdity of the "luxury recruit" comment) but Mason deserves more love. I watched him in person at some Duke games last year and he was working his tail off for position and not getting rewarded very much by our guards. I think that if we used him more, as I expect we will this coming season, he would consistently put up the kind of dominating numbers he showed us glimpses of in many games last year.

    --Jason "important caveat about this post-- I generally agree with pretty much everything Starter says. This post is a real outlier" Evans
    Just saw this. Good post, strong numbers to back it up. You're right, Mason most certainly has the capability to dominate games. I was glad to see him return, and as the guy whose picture somehow ended up on his Wikipedia entry, I look forward to seeing what he has in store for us this season. I'm completely and totally with you in terms of not being rewarded as much as he should have been by our guards after busting his tail to get position, and I'm hoping things will be a little better for him next year -- if Cook ascends, it'll help the cause. I still remember how amazing he looked before Irving went down, and that was as a sophomore. And as you said, he had some big spots last year where he was a game-changer.

    Please note, by the way, you're dead-on to correct me, but though I'm not sure how I was coming off with this, I like Mason a great deal. (If for nothing more than he once complimented my sneakers!) And he's a darn good player; you don't basically average a double double if you're not. I just think at 11 points per game, he has a little ways to go before being called "elite," though it's not to say he can't get there. He had a stretch last year where his scoring dropped completely off the table, though like we said, that's not all completely on him and he was a solid rebounder throughout. He also had a fairly decent streak of double-doubles before that. If we can get him to where he's a consistent scoring presence, I see no reason, with his talent, that he shouldn't at least approach the numbers Robinson had last year for Kansas. Then we're talking about a team with an absolutely legit shot at a Final Four, followed by a well-deserved lottery pick for Mason. But as Jason correctly assessed, the physical tools and precedent are there.

    Edit: Uh... here's a picture I took of Jabari Parker. (In a desperate attempt to keep myself on topic!)
    Last edited by Starter; 08-04-2012 at 04:35 PM.

  16. #136
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    Columbus OH 614
    Multiple sources saying Jabari has narrowed his list to Mich St, Duke, and Kansas...with it really being a two team race and Kansas a distant third...

    http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap...gan_State_Duke

    http://www.freep.com/article/2012080.../1055/sports07

  17. #137
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    Nashville
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    For what it's worth, me too. I think the most important thing we can do at this point for 2013-14 is recruit another player who can defend the 5 and contribute good minutes there. If Randle can do that and Parker can't, then I think Randle's the more important recruit. If neither (or both) can do that, then I'll take either (or both) and gut it out at the 5 with Marshall and whoever's able to back him up.
    Thing is, Randle doesn't want to do that, and I don't really blame him.

    It's a tricky situation, because there really aren't any immediate-impact centers in the 2013 class. Of the three we bigs we're pursuing, Nichols is probably the closest, and he's more of a PF than a C. Lee and Damian Jones are nice prospects, I highly doubt any would be better than Marshall in his third year, but hopefully one could contribute backup minutes... but then, would they really jump SR Hairston or SO Jefferson as the 4th big in the rotation anyway?

    I'd be curious what situation K is selling to Randle.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_Newton View Post
    Thing is, Randle doesn't want to do that, and I don't really blame him.

    It's a tricky situation, because there really aren't any immediate-impact centers in the 2013 class. Of the three we bigs we're pursuing, Nichols is probably the closest, and he's more of a PF than a C. Lee and Damian Jones are nice prospects, I highly doubt any would be better than Marshall in his third year, but hopefully one could contribute backup minutes... but then, would they really jump SR Hairston or SO Jefferson as the 4th big in the rotation anyway?

    I'd be curious what situation K is selling to Randle.
    Yeah, Randle will definitely be asked to play and defend the center position for us if he commits here (Assuming Marshall is a backup). I think he has the versatility and the build to pull it off on offense, but nothing that I've seen or heard about him suggests that he is an adequate post defender. He has an average wingspan for his size, and I don't think his standing vertical is good enough to make up for it. Again, he's not Elton Brand. Ideally, he would play the 4 with Marshall in the lineup, but with our anticipated plethora of talented combo forwards (esp. if Jabari commits), I think Randle would spend a lot of time at the 5. Still, with a ridiculous front court of Randle, Parker, and Murphy, it might be good enough on offense that the lack of a true post defender might not matter. I mean, that's 3 guys in the FRONT COURT who can all take their man off the dribble. With a 5 man lineup who all have above average ball handling for their position, I think it would be a scary good team on offense.
    Last edited by licc85; 08-05-2012 at 11:22 PM.

  19. #139
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    I don't think it's even worth speculating what would happen if we land both of them, because the chance is so slim. I think the question is whether Cook-Sulaimon-Hood-Murphy-Randle is better than Cook-Sulaimon/Hood/Murphy-Randle-Marshall (with one of the three wings as a "6th starter", and whether it's worth playing two guys out of position in positions they do not want to play (Murphy at 4, Randle at 5).

    But all that's really putting the cart before the horse - IMO, we'd have a hard time winning the Randle sweepstakes if our pitch to him is coming in and playing center. However, I doubt Coach K would knowingly lie to him, thus my curiosity about what the pitch is and my assumption that Marshall would be starting in the middle.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_Newton View Post
    I think the question is whether Cook-Sulaimon-Hood-Murphy-Randle is better than Cook-Sulaimon/Hood/Murphy-Randle-Marshall (with one of the three wings as a "6th starter", and whether it's worth playing two guys out of position in positions they do not want to play (Murphy at 4, Randle at 5).
    Well, that's sort of the question but I don't think it really is. Even best case, Marshall won't be playing 40 minutes. Probably closer to 20, which means somebody else has to play 15 to 20 minutes at C. If Randle is on the team, I'd assume it would be him and he'd play the rest of his time at PF. Alex and Amile can play PF but C would seem to be a stretch. You'd think the same for Josh, although he's probably closer than the other two to be ready to play backup C.

    Also, when Randle would (hypothetically, of course) play C for Duke, he wouldn't have to play back-to-the-basket on offense. Kyle didn't play traditional C on offense in 2008; he just had to defend the other team's C. My guess is Randle might not have that big an issue with that sort of arrangement (and same for Alex at PF), but obviously I don't know for sure.

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