Tyler Thornton's offense

[tommy]

I charted Tyler's offense in the Washington game very closely to see if perhaps he was making more, or perhaps different contributions than I and other posters had been perceiving up to this point.

Here's what I noted, in no particular order:

On two occasions he simply made a poor pass on the outside. One went out of bounds for a turnover and the other was intercepted and led to a Wroten layup.
On one occasion he had the ball at the outset of the break and was on the dribble, but got stopped at halfcourt by a one-on-one defender and had to give the ball up. A better handle would've helped to continue the break there.
He had one good entry pass from the wing to Mason. He had one decent entry pass to Miles, but he wasn't in much of a position to do anything with it. He had another entry pass to Ryan on the block that was easy as Ryan had established good position and no other help defenders were nearby.
He had one poor entry pass to Miles; ball stolen.
He had one good challenge, early in the game, on an offensive rebound-type play where his hustle resulted in our getting a 50-50 ball.
One good pass-ahead to Austin on the break, and another to Andre for a transition 3 (missed). He also had a good skip-ahead pass off a rebound to Ryan who was alone at the offensive end after not making it back on D when he tweaked his ankle.
One good penetration that he followed with a poor attempt at a lob pass, which was knocked away.
One assist to Andre for a 3 -- not a tough pass but he did see him open and deliver the ball.
One one occasion he dribbled with a purpose towards the hoop as the tension in the game was building as UW was coming back. TT got fouled -missed one and made one.
In the last minute he got fouled again in the backcourt and again made 1 of 2.

He didn't take any shots from the field.

So that was some good and some not so good, but what really struck me was that the total number of offensive plays that he was involved in (in any kind of significant way) was very small for a point guard playing the kind of minutes Ty played in this game. That's because there were 29 times in this game (I counted) that Ty made passes that were simple, easy, nonthreatening passes to teammates on the outside.

My takeaway from this --and this is not news to anyone who watches the team play -- is that Tyler is really not putting very much pressure on the defense from the point guard position. He's not forcing very much action at all, not causing the defense to have to move, to adjust, to defend much that he's doing out there. He's not driving much, not dishing much, not pushing it up much; what he's really doing is bringing the ball upcourt successfully and just passing off to someone else, and then that someone else, along with the other 3 players, are involved in making a play.

It would be too harsh to say we're playing 4-on-5 on offense with Ty in the game, but it is a concern (at least of mine) that he's not causing very much stress on the defense really at all. I know he brings other attributes to the table, but nonetheless it seems important, in particular in Duke's system, that our guards be able to force the action and make plays, and we're not getting that from TT.

[OldPhiKap]

I charted Tyler's offense in the Washington game very closely to see if perhaps he was making more, or perhaps different contributions than I and other posters had been perceiving up to this point.

Here's what I noted, in no particular order:

On two occasions he simply made a poor pass on the outside. One went out of bounds for a turnover and the other was intercepted and led to a Wroten layup.
On one occasion he had the ball at the outset of the break and was on the dribble, but got stopped at halfcourt by a one-on-one defender and had to give the ball up. A better handle would've helped to continue the break there.
He had one good entry pass from the wing to Mason. He had one decent entry pass to Miles, but he wasn't in much of a position to do anything with it. He had another entry pass to Ryan on the block that was easy as Ryan had established good position and no other help defenders were nearby.
He had one poor entry pass to Miles; ball stolen.
He had one good challenge, early in the game, on an offensive rebound-type play where his hustle resulted in our getting a 50-50 ball.
One good pass-ahead to Austin on the break, and another to Andre for a transition 3 (missed). He also had a good skip-ahead pass off a rebound to Ryan who was alone at the offensive end after not making it back on D when he tweaked his ankle.
One good penetration that he followed with a poor attempt at a lob pass, which was knocked away.
One assist to Andre for a 3 -- not a tough pass but he did see him open and deliver the ball.
One one occasion he dribbled with a purpose towards the hoop as the tension in the game was building as UW was coming back. TT got fouled -missed one and made one.
In the last minute he got fouled again in the backcourt and again made 1 of 2.

He didn't take any shots from the field.

So that was some good and some not so good, but what really struck me was that the total number of offensive plays that he was involved in (in any kind of significant way) was very small for a point guard playing the kind of minutes Ty played in this game. That's because there were 29 times in this game (I counted) that Ty made passes that were simple, easy, nonthreatening passes to teammates on the outside.

My takeaway from this --and this is not news to anyone who watches the team play -- is that Tyler is really not putting very much pressure on the defense from the point guard position. He's not forcing very much action at all, not causing the defense to have to move, to adjust, to defend much that he's doing out there. He's not driving much, not dishing much, not pushing it up much; what he's really doing is bringing the ball upcourt successfully and just passing off to someone else, and then that someone else, along with the other 3 players, are involved in making a play.

It would be too harsh to say we're playing 4-on-5 on offense with Ty in the game, but it is a concern (at least of mine) that he's not causing very much stress on the defense really at all. I know he brings other attributes to the table, but nonetheless it seems important, in particular in Duke's system, that our guards be able to force the action and make plays, and we're not getting that from TT.

One of my favorite players over the years was Billy King. Lock down defender. Couldn't hit the broad side of a barn on offense.

Our defense needs on-point pressure. If Tyler brings that, we can get by with him on the other side of the floor. You have watched the game in much greater detail than I have (multiple times -- very impressive) but I do not know how many times Tyler was able to either (1) act as a relief valve for someone who has discontinued his dribble; or (2) draw out a defender to open up a lane. Throw in some picks, and he's filling a useful role on offense even if he is not a huge offensive threat.

Having said that, of course, it helps if a player like that can hit enough shots to keep the other team honest. The jury may still be out on that point.

Overall, it seems that good things generally happen when he's out there. Haven't seen the overall +/- (and not sure how accurate a measure that is).

[dukebballcamper90-91]

I'm sure his defense did not get him the DC player of the year in high school. The guy has the skill set to be a vital part of the O. We need him to make some plays to take the heat off Seth and Andre, who seem a little more slower at getting by defenders, creating shots.

[Kedsy]

Thanks, Tommy. I have made the same observations you have, but it's great to see those observations confirmed by actual analysis.

Our defense needs on-point pressure. If Tyler brings that, we can get by with him on the other side of the floor.

I agree with this, except I don't think Tyler brings on-point pressure very well. His strength seems to be pesky help defense, doubling to create turnovers, etc. His on-ball defense against opposing PGs so far has been middling. He doesn't stay in front of his man nearly as well as a defensive stopper should. He's no Billy King.

Overall, it seems that good things generally happen when he's out there. Haven't seen the overall +/- (and not sure how accurate a measure that is).

I think good things happen on defense when he's out there. In my observation, the offense is much less dynamic and seems to bog down a lot more when Tyler is running the point.

In addition to Tommy's observations, I remarked in another thread that Seth seems to score a lot less than usual when he's teamed with Tyler (and Nolan scored a lot less than usual when he was teamed with Tyler). So not only is Tyler just passing the ball around the perimeter most of the time, he's apparently not giving it to his wing guard in a good position to get anything going.

I'm sure his defense did not get him the DC player of the year in high school.

I imagine defense probably had something to do with it. I couldn't find his high school stats anywhere, but I don't recall them being so eye-popping that he would have beat out Kendall Marshall for DC POY based on his offense.

The guy has the skill set to be a vital part of the O. We need him to make some plays to take the heat off Seth and Andre, who seem a little more slower at getting by defenders, creating shots.

You think Tyler is better than Seth at getting by defenders and creating shots? Wow, that's a fairly unique viewpoint, I expect, among people who have watched the games.

[tommy]

Thanks, Tommy. I have made the same observations you have, but it's great to see those observations confirmed by actual analysis.



I agree with this, except I don't think Tyler brings on-point pressure very well. His strength seems to be pesky help defense, doubling to create turnovers, etc. His on-ball defense against opposing PGs so far has been middling. He doesn't stay in front of his man nearly as well as a defensive stopper should. He's no Billy King.

Amen to that. And the data, at least from the "defense vs. Washington" thread, confirms it.

I think good things happen on defense when he's out there. In my observation, the offense is much less dynamic and seems to bog down a lot more when Tyler is running the point.

In addition to Tommy's observations, I remarked in another thread that Seth seems to score a lot less than usual when he's teamed with Tyler (and Nolan scored a lot less than usual when he was teamed with Tyler). So not only is Tyler just passing the ball around the perimeter most of the time, he's apparently not giving it to his wing guard in a good position to get anything going.

I agree with you as to this as well. Not only is there little to no threat that Tyler is going to do something himself to pressure the defense, but he's not doing much to put his teammates in positions to apply that pressure either.

I'm certainly not in a position to question K, but he and the staff really must be putting a pretty high value on Ty's on-court leadership and the intangibles that he brings, because, at least in my opinion following fairly close viewing of these games, his defensive performance is uneven and his contributions at the offensive end are not all that substantial. Seems like an excellent energy guy to be coming off one's bench, but starting and playing 30 minutes?

[jv001]

Amen to that. And the data, at least from the "defense vs. Washington" thread, confirms it.




I agree with you as to this as well. Not only is there little to no threat that Tyler is going to do something himself to pressure the defense, but he's not doing much to put his teammates in positions to apply that pressure either.

I'm certainly not in a position to question K, but he and the staff really must be putting a pretty high value on Ty's on-court leadership and the intangibles that he brings, because, at least in my opinion following fairly close viewing of these games, his defensive performance is uneven and his contributions at the offensive end are not all that substantial. Seems like an excellent energy guy to be coming off one's bench, but starting and playing 30 minutes?

I like Tyler and the energy that he brings to the team, but I just don't think he's the answer to our point guard position. At least not as you say the starter playing 30 minutes. My hope is that Quinn lights it up in practice and shows Coach K he can be our on the ball defender. And that he can add to our offense and not take away from it. Tyler has not shown me that he has the handle to be an elite point guard. GoDuke!

[DUKIE V(A)]

It would be too harsh to say we're playing 4-on-5 on offense with Ty in the game, but it is a concern (at least of mine) that he's not causing very much stress on the defense really at all. I know he brings other attributes to the table, but nonetheless it seems important, in particular in Duke's system, that our guards be able to force the action and make plays, and we're not getting that from TT.

Not sure Bill Self agrees with you.

Kidding aside, I believe one of the more interesting aspects of this season will be how the coaching staff balances playing time between our guards -- obviously including TT. I am a fan of all our guys but am particularly excited to see Cook's development. I think he is one of the keys to how successful this team is.

[elvis14]

Good thread guys and I appreciate the analysis. Kedsy hit the nail on the head. Tyler has a nose for the ball on defense and he's good at being a pain for the other team. He chases down loose balls, crashes boards, sticks his nose in places where it might be bent with reckless abandon. I like him but he really needs help on the other end of the floor. Other teams are leaving him to double team our bigs and to clog passing lanes. Just imagine if Dawkins had a nose for the ball the way Tyler does!

[OldPhiKap]

Good thread guys and I appreciate the analysis. Kedsy hit the nail on the head. Tyler has a nose for the ball on defense and he's good at being a pain for the other team. He chases down loose balls, crashes boards, sticks his nose in places where it might be bent with reckless abandon. I like him but he really needs help on the other end of the floor. Other teams are leaving him to double team our bigs and to clog passing lanes.

Sounds like Wojo.

[ncexnyc]

Can somebody help me out, I'm so confused. Coach K. has turned the team over to Tyler, yet we've still got people calling for Seth to be the PG.

Where are all the posts telling these people to stop seconding guessing a coach with over 900 wins? Where are the posts telling these people to stop throwing one player under the bus to build-up another player?

[tommy]

Sounds like Wojo.

Don't know about that. Ty hasn't played nearly as many minutes or games as Wojo did, but so far at least his numbers do not measure up to Wojo's career numbers.

Category Wojo Tyler

minutes/game 25.5 12.02
assists/game 3.9 1.2
turnovers/game 1.57 0.75
A/TO ratio 2.48:1 1.6:1
rebounds/gm 2.3 0.9
steals/gm 1.6 0.5

[-jk]

Don't know about that. Ty hasn't played nearly as many minutes or games as Wojo did, but so far at least his numbers do not measure up to Wojo's career numbers.

Category Wojo Tyler

minutes/game 25.5 12.02
assists/game 3.9 1.2
turnovers/game 1.57 0.75
A/TO ratio 2.48:1 1.6:1
rebounds/gm 2.3 0.9
steals/gm 1.6 0.5

That's hardly fair. At least compare Soph year to Soph year. And, of course, Wojo had the '95 anomoly mixed in. Not sure what that does. (I'm on my BB, so goduke stats aren't readily available; I'll have to leave it to you! Sorry.)

-jk

[Verga3]

TT's leadership and defensive abilities may well trump, in Coach K's mind, some "deficiencies" some on this board are speculating about. I believe Coach K has a better finger on the pulse and development of this team than we do. Things can always change...and that may already be contemplated, with regard to Seth and Quinn's role. But, I fully support and enjoy seeing Tyler start at the point. Last I checked, we don't have many kids playing 40 minutes. Building depth and enhancing player development at this time of year is a tightrope act that I trust Coach K and his staff to manage.

[Double DD]

Don't know about that. Ty hasn't played nearly as many minutes or games as Wojo did, but so far at least his numbers do not measure up to Wojo's career numbers.

Category Wojo Tyler

minutes/game 25.5 12.02
assists/game 3.9 1.2
turnovers/game 1.57 0.75
A/TO ratio 2.48:1 1.6:1
rebounds/gm 2.3 0.9
steals/gm 1.6 0.5

Wojo shot an incredible 0.318 from the floor as a sophomore. Even with Wojo being a superior passer at that point, it would hard for Thornton to match that ineffectiveness on offence.

[tommy]

That's hardly fair. At least compare Soph year to Soph year. And, of course, Wojo had the '95 anomoly mixed in. Not sure what that does. (I'm on my BB, so goduke stats aren't readily available; I'll have to leave it to you! Sorry.)

-jk

You're right. I thought about that too. Comparison of Wojo's first two years' stats vs. TT's are below. Wojo still superior in all areas (not including shooting %) but not by as wide a margin.

I also notice that Wojo took about 3 times as many FG attempts per game in his first two years as Ty had. Neither qualifies as a bomber (about 3 shots per game for Wojo vs. 1 for Ty) and Ty clearly has shot a higher FG% than did Wojo his first two years, but most would say there is at least some value in the act of taking some shots, even if they don't go in, just to keep the defense honest and make it move and react to what you're doing, thereby increasing the chances of freeing up teammates.

ps - any idea how to do neat columns on this thing instead of the mess I've presented?


Category Wojo TT


minutes/gm 20.59 12.02
asst/gm 2.79 1.2
turnovers/gm 1.35 .75
asst/TO ration 2.06:1 1.6:1
rebounds/gm 1.76 0.9
steals/gm 0.8 0.5

[-jk]

There are two ways to do columns. Both are described in the FAQ sticky.

-jk

[94duke]

You're right. I thought about that too. Comparison of Wojo's first two years' stats vs. TT's are below. Wojo still superior in all areas (not including shooting %) but not by as wide a margin.

I also notice that Wojo took about 3 times as many FG attempts per game in his first two years as Ty had. Neither qualifies as a bomber (about 3 shots per game for Wojo vs. 1 for Ty) and Ty clearly has shot a higher FG% than did Wojo his first two years, but most would say there is at least some value in the act of taking some shots, even if they don't go in, just to keep the defense honest and make it move and react to what you're doing, thereby increasing the chances of freeing up teammates.

ps - any idea how to do neat columns on this thing instead of the mess I've presented?


Category Wojo TT


minutes/gm 20.59 12.02
asst/gm 2.79 1.2
turnovers/gm 1.35 .75
asst/TO ration 2.06:1 1.6:1
rebounds/gm 1.76 0.9
steals/gm 0.8 0.5

Here you go...

Category	Wojo	TT

minutes/gm	20.59	12.02
asst/gm		2.79	1.2
turnovers/gm	1.35	0.75
asst/TO ratio	2.06:1	1.6:1
rebounds/gm	1.76	0.9
steals/gm	0.8	0.5

[sagegrouse]

You're right. I thought about that too. Comparison of Wojo's first two years' stats vs. TT's are below. Wojo still superior in all areas (not including shooting %) but not by as wide a margin.

I also notice that Wojo took about 3 times as many FG attempts per game in his first two years as Ty had. Neither qualifies as a bomber (about 3 shots per game for Wojo vs. 1 for Ty) and Ty clearly has shot a higher FG% than did Wojo his first two years, but most would say there is at least some value in the act of taking some shots, even if they don't go in, just to keep the defense honest and make it move and react to what you're doing, thereby increasing the chances of freeing up teammates.

ps - any idea how to do neat columns on this thing instead of the mess I've presented?


Category Wojo TT

minutes/gm        20.59  12.02
asst/gm            2.79   1.2
turnovers/gm       1.35   0.75
asst/TO ration     2.06:1 1.6:1
rebounds/gm        1.76   0.9
steals/gm          0.8    0.5

Here's one way. You need to use code /code and then play with the spacing. I used "Preview Post" 4-5 times to get this table. -- sage

[tommy]

Thanks fellas for the help w the columns. I'll try it next time.

T

[Greg_Newton]

Wojo shot an incredible 0.318 from the floor as a sophomore. Even with Wojo being a superior passer at that point, it would hard for Thornton to match that ineffectiveness on offence.

Good point. However, I don't think we should be using '95-'96 as any sort of benchmark for this current top 5-10 team, as 1996 was one of our worst seasons of the past 25 years.

I'll concur with Tommy; I love Tyler as a sixth man, but not a 30+mpg pillar of the lineup. He reminds me of Mike on Breaking Bad - send him in when you've got a situation that needs to be cleaned up!

(Side note, it's only a matter of time before he gets a solid nickname. Too bad The Fixer wasn't more popular, because that's basically who he is...)