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  1. #41
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    Feb 2007
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    Portland, OR
    Quote Originally Posted by juise View Post
    I read Jason's lips saying "What did I tell you?" more than once.
    Horrible mistake. Obviously, I meant Jeff... the one who knows right from wrong when choosing shades of blue.

  2. #42
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    Sep 2008
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    Philadelphia
    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    But it's desirable to have a professor who has a background in civil engineering, rather than electrical engineering, train a graduate student in civil engineering.
    I think we're splitting hairs at this point. Is civil engineering equivalent to basketball while bridge building vs. dam building the equivalent to guard play vs. big man play? Or is engineering equal to basketball, while civil engineering vs. electrical engineering the equivalent to guard play vs. big man play. I would argue the former, you appear to favor the latter, but there really isn't a right answer.

  3. #43
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    Feb 2007
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    Portland, OR
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I think we're splitting hairs at this point. Is civil engineering equivalent to basketball while bridge building vs. dam building the equivalent to guard play vs. big man play? Or is engineering equal to basketball, while civil engineering vs. electrical engineering the equivalent to guard play vs. big man play. I would argue the former, you appear to favor the latter, but there really isn't a right answer.
    All I know is that I would rather have a civil engineer coach my big men than a former NBA center designing my bridges.

    Seriously, though, I agree with Kedsy that the differences between basketball positions are smaller than the differences between engineering disciplines (which would be more like comparing different sports, IMO).

  4. #44
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    Aug 2007
    My rub is that two outstanding young men who were on the staff had to make room for Capel. One had to be designated in a new position no longer on the team. And wasn't it Capel that had to go to summer school and caused his teammates to give up a trip to Australia when he was playing? Maybe not but I think so. So let's not be so fast to give him credit when Wojo is doing all the work.
    Last edited by Devilsfan; 11-25-2011 at 06:53 PM.

  5. #45
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    Sep 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devilsfan View Post
    And wasn't it Capel that had to go to summer school and caused his teammates to give up a trip to Australia when he was playing? Maybe not but I think so.
    [SOAPBOX] While I wish it were under different circumstances, I for one am ecstatic that we have Jeff on the bench. He learned from his father, who was/is a fantastic coach in his own right, and has run a major program. How is anyone throwing darts like this?

    Of course, following the rest of your point regarding making room for Jeff, one would assume that if K was somehow unhappy with Wojo he would have made room a different way.

    To be clear: K is not infallable. But he is entitled to the staff he wants, and I for one cannot see him having anyone on there that he does not have supreme confidence in. K can pick from hundreds upon hundreds of folks who would love to come assist here. And who would do a damn good job. K has the staff he has because he WANTS the staff he has.

    Seriously, given the results we have obtained, how is anyone really questioning the quality or composition of the coaching staff?!? REALLY?!?

    [/SOAPBOX]


    Edit to add: this is not intended to target the quoted poster, I just am beyond fed up with this. If anyone doesn't like K's staff, call for the administration to fire K. Otherwise, let the man do his job.

  6. #46
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    Mar 2007
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    Boca Grande Florida
    Maybe I missed some, but you guys must be seeing "post" play I'm not seeing. In the Kansas game I only recall 1 time that Kelly took an entry pass down low with his back to the basket and made a move to score. (It was a nice move too).

    Mason had about 5, back to the basket, in the paint, moves to the rim to attempt to score the entire game. He looked good on a couple of them.
    Somebody feel free to check it out on tape, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I recall.

    Miles..where was he against Kansas as an offensive threat in the paint? He's a senior with size and athleticism, he should at bare minimum have a catch and jump hook.

    Mason and Ryan were active in the post, but it was off plays that had broken down from guard penetration, or offensive rebounding.

    And they played well, I'm not trying to say they didn't.

    But, there has been very little "traditional" post play from the bigs.... the, "I'm holding this spot, give me the ball, I'm gonna turn on you, put a move on you, and score or you're gonna foul me"... plays from them.

    Mason is strong enough and quick enough to get the prime real estate down low almost anytime he wants, and he is athletic enough to get a quality look too.
    Kelly has enough strength now and a nice, soft shooting touch.

    I can only surmise that traditional post play from a big is just not how coach K wants to play. And the winningest coach of all time can play his players any way he wants to.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  7. #47
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    Feb 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkyJ View Post
    I'd love to know the answer to this as well. For some reason I thought I read the answer earlier in the year and I thought he was spending most of his time with Collins and the guards, but I could be misremembering.

    My 2 cents is that specifically for Mason his development of an actual go to move makes all the difference. And we know this is something Wojo worked on with he and Miles. The last 2 years if he caught the ball he looked like he didn't know what to do with it. Actually having a go-to move in that hook shot makes a world of difference for him b/c he can demand the ball and actually do something with it. Now if Miles could get that going...
    Also, Mason debuted the hook shot late last season, and during one of the games, after Mason made a hook from the baseline, the TV announcer mentioned that Wojo and Mason had been putting in a lot of hours working on that move. This year, Mason has added the short jumphook with both hands. The addition of the left hand jumphook is key, because that move is where Mason used to always shoot the fade-away jumpshot that almost never went in.

    As for Capel, I'm not sure of his role. I was unable to catch a practice this year. Last year at practice, when they broke into groups, Collins and Carrawell worked with the guards, and Wojo and Nate was on the other end working with the Bigs. Carrawell is gone, so Capel plugged the hole there. The question is, did Capel take Carrawell's spot, or did K move Nate to the guards and put Capel with Wojo coaching the Bigs. It's possible for sure.

    Either way, like others, the thing that irked me about the OP, was the fact that he directly credit's the improvement to Capel and does not even mention Wojo. Ironically, that feeds the "perception" that Wojo is not a good big man coach.

    "[T]he tarnished Tar Heels that bear little resemblance to the revered program built by Dean Smith."- Ashville Times
    "UNC and the NCAA are trying to conceal that the fraud was specifically designed to pad the transcripts of varsity athletes" - Bloomberg

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Maybe I missed some, but you guys must be seeing "post" play I'm not seeing. In the Kansas game I only recall 1 time that Kelly took an entry pass down low with his back to the basket and made a move to score. (It was a nice move too).

    Mason had about 5, back to the basket, in the paint, moves to the rim to attempt to score the entire game. He looked good on a couple of them.
    Somebody feel free to check it out on tape, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I recall.

    Miles..where was he against Kansas as an offensive threat in the paint? He's a senior with size and athleticism, he should at bare minimum have a catch and jump hook.

    Mason and Ryan were active in the post, but it was off plays that had broken down from guard penetration, or offensive rebounding.

    And they played well, I'm not trying to say they didn't.

    But, there has been very little "traditional" post play from the bigs.... the, "I'm holding this spot, give me the ball, I'm gonna turn on you, put a move on you, and score or you're gonna foul me"... plays from them.

    Mason is strong enough and quick enough to get the prime real estate down low almost anytime he wants, and he is athletic enough to get a quality look too.
    Kelly has enough strength now and a nice, soft shooting touch.

    I can only surmise that traditional post play from a big is just not how coach K wants to play. And the winningest coach of all time can play his players any way he wants to.
    In the 7 games Duke has played this season, all 3 of Mason, Miles, and Ryan, have gotten touches in traditional post-up positions and had success. Mason has scored on sky hooks, jumphooks with both hands, and up and under moves. Miles has scored on all 4 of those moves as well, and Miles has also scored with a drop step to the baseline and then reverse lay-up on the other side. Kelly does not use the jumphook or the skyhook. He almost always uses multiple fakes, and either goes with the up and under move, a bankshot, or just uses the fake to draw a foul. Mason has been the most frequent recipient down low, like he was the other night. Both Mason and Ryan have also drawn numerous fouls on post moves. Also, contrary to popular belief, every team Duke has played except Michigan, has had post guys 6'9 & 6'10.

    Belmont's frontline was 6'10 250, and 6'9 235. Davidson's: 6'10 235, 6'10 237.

    In the Kansas game, all 3 guys scored on traditional post moves. In the first half, Mile's sealed his man, called for the ball, caught it, pivoted and threw down a hard one-hand dunk. In other games, he has used a right-hand jumphook off glass from that position if the defender slid down to cut off a direct lane to a dunk.


    K has made it a point to get the ball in the paint while still allowing the guards to get their shots. It is not a team where the ball needs to go into the post every half-court possession, but it will go into the post a lot more than the last few years. However, if the defense is making life difficult on the perimeter, K will instruct them to feed the bigs. That happened in the 2nd half of the Davidson game. Guards were struggling and we fed the post time and time again and that is when the game turned. Mason was the recipient of most of those touches.

    This is the most balanced team that Duke has had in several years in terms of scoring. I think most of us are quite happy with our bigs and their ability to score the ball in the paint. All 3 can score posting up in a traditional fashion, as well as turning and facing up. Josh can also score facing up as well, though it looks like he will not get much PT unless foul trouble comes into play. He does have a nice jumper though.

    "[T]he tarnished Tar Heels that bear little resemblance to the revered program built by Dean Smith."- Ashville Times
    "UNC and the NCAA are trying to conceal that the fraud was specifically designed to pad the transcripts of varsity athletes" - Bloomberg

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Maybe I missed some, but you guys must be seeing "post" play I'm not seeing. In the Kansas game I only recall 1 time that Kelly took an entry pass down low with his back to the basket and made a move to score. (It was a nice move too).

    Mason had about 5, back to the basket, in the paint, moves to the rim to attempt to score the entire game. He looked good on a couple of them.
    Somebody feel free to check it out on tape, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I recall.

    Miles..where was he against Kansas as an offensive threat in the paint? He's a senior with size and athleticism, he should at bare minimum have a catch and jump hook.

    Mason and Ryan were active in the post, but it was off plays that had broken down from guard penetration, or offensive rebounding.

    And they played well, I'm not trying to say they didn't.

    But, there has been very little "traditional" post play from the bigs.... the, "I'm holding this spot, give me the ball, I'm gonna turn on you, put a move on you, and score or you're gonna foul me"... plays from them.

    Mason is strong enough and quick enough to get the prime real estate down low almost anytime he wants, and he is athletic enough to get a quality look too.
    Kelly has enough strength now and a nice, soft shooting touch.

    I can only surmise that traditional post play from a big is just not how coach K wants to play. And the winningest coach of all time can play his players any way he wants to.
    lol.

  10. #50
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    Dec 2007
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    Cary, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Maybe I missed some, but you guys must be seeing "post" play I'm not seeing.
    I replied to one of your comments in a different thread and I don't want you to think I'm picking on you but here's my two cents - I think Duke fans will consider "post scoring" to be anything inside 15 feet that doesn't come from our guards. Mason and Kelly might only perform traditional post maneuvers on a small percentage of their possessions, but as long as they're finding other ways to score then that qualifies as inside production. Mason tends to set up a little farther outside the lane and either use a spin move or try to dribble around his man. That matches his skill set - he's quicker than the guys guarding him so he tries to use that to his advantage. Kelly uses a lot of pump fakes and pivots to get his man off balance. There's no rule that says our inside guys HAVE to keep their backs to the basket Barkley-style in order to be effective.

    Towards the end of the game Kansas was actually double-teaming Mason as soon as he got the ball, which I've never seen before. So at least they were convinced he's capable of doing some damage inside. As for Miles, I agree he's been pretty quiet for a few games now. Hopefully he'll pick it up.

  11. #51
    Sometimes people just see what they want to see. I truly mean no disrespect to Wheat, who is a good poster. But if someone can seriously have watched the Kansas game and not see post play from Duke's bigs, you just have to "lol" and move on.

    Nothing more needs to be said.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    Sometimes people just see what they want to see. I truly mean no disrespect to Wheat, who is a good poster. But if someone can seriously have watched the Kansas game and not see post play from Duke's bigs, you just have to "lol" and move on.

    Nothing more needs to be said.
    Less surprising to those of us that remember Wheat dismissing the post contributions of Brian Zoubek, Shelden Williams and Carlos Boozer.

  13. #53
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    Mar 2007
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    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    Sometimes people just see what they want to see. I truly mean no disrespect to Wheat, who is a good poster. But if someone can seriously have watched the Kansas game and not see post play from Duke's bigs, you just have to "lol" and move on.

    Nothing more needs to be said.
    Just telling it like it is, guys. No need to shoot the messenger.

    I don't think I was ever too critical of Sheldon. I did think Boozer could have been better inside wwith his skills.

    I think if you look back you'll find I was pretty complimentary of Zoubek his Sr. year.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North Raleigh
    RK was facilitating the point Forward position quite nicely... Scoring, dishing, kicking out...
    Mason was learning how to be dominant and really contest -good to see..
    Miles - who do you bench in THAT game to get him some reps? NOT RK or Mason... We've got work to do, but its better than I could have hoped for so far in this young season..

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Just telling it like it is tar heel fans see it, guys. No need to shoot point in correcting the messenger homer.
    Fixed it for you.

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Northern VA

    Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/"
    Just telling it like it is tar heel fans see it, guys. No need to shoot point in correcting the messenger homer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dukeface88 View Post
    Fixed it for you.

    Thanks for fixing that post Dukeface. 'just beat me to it!
    I swear, on first reading Wheat's description of Duke big-man post play this season I had to do a double-take, checking to see if I had maybe logged onto Inside Carolina by mistake. I swear, if I didn't know better you'd think Wheat was a Kerlina fan spinning a pre-determined story, facts be damned... Oh, wait...

    I watched all three Maui games and can remember dozens of instances of Duke bigs being fed within 8 feet of the basket, and then making "post moves" to complete a shot. (I suspect Wheat may split hairs and defend his IC spin of those games by parsing words and (very) tightly defining how he means the term "feeding the post." I define it as "any pass from a guard into the interior - say within about 8 feet of the basket - where a Duke big then has to make an interior move to complete a shot." That includes penetrations designed to dish to bigs in a good spot where they can make an interior move and complete the play/shot/basket.) I can fairly easily recall more than a couple dozen post-feed plays over those three games.

    Clearly Duke is feeding the post much more regularly this season than the past couple of excellent-guard-dominated squads did. Mason's and Ryan's strong emergence this season is a big cause (or is it "effect"?) of that. I like this year's balance, as opponents will have to "pick their poison," and the strength of one really enhances the strength of the other. (But I agree with the other poster that, when an opponent is foolish enough to double-up inside on Mason - understandable as it may be given his strength there - we don't want to just keep pounding it inside to him relentlessly while an opportunity has been opened to our guards or other bigs.)





    .
    Last edited by -bdbd; 11-26-2011 at 01:31 AM.
    -BDBD

  17. #57
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    May 2010
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    Myrtle Beach, SC
    Quote Originally Posted by Devilsfan View Post
    My rub is that two outstanding young men who were on the staff had to make room for Capel. One had to be designated in a new position no longer on the team. And wasn't it Capel that had to go to summer school and caused his teammates to give up a trip to Australia when he was playing? Maybe not but I think so. So let's not be so fast to give him credit when Wojo is doing all the work.
    Do you get upset that Seth starts over Tyler as well?? Tyler is an outstanding you man... so I guess that means he should be the one starting at point regardless of whether its best for the team or not.

    I think most of us on this board would agree that Seth starting is what's best for this team, and that is why K is starting him. So would it be a stretch to think that maybe, just maybe, moving CC and Nate James to different roles in order to bring Capel back is best for the team? I trust that K made the right call. He is only the greatest coach of all time!!
    “There are five fundamental qualities that make every team great: communication, trust, collective responsibility, caring and pride. I like to think of each as a separate finger on the fist. Any one individually is important. But all of them together are unbeatable.”

    -Coach K

  18. #58
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    Mar 2008
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    raleigh
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I think we're splitting hairs at this point. Is civil engineering equivalent to basketball while bridge building vs. dam building the equivalent to guard play vs. big man play? Or is engineering equal to basketball, while civil engineering vs. electrical engineering the equivalent to guard play vs. big man play. I would argue the former, you appear to favor the latter, but there really isn't a right answer.
    you can replace both those guys with an ME......
    "Either we're going down, or they are....... Kirk out!"

  19. #59
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    Mar 2007
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    Philly
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Maybe I missed some, but you guys must be seeing "post" play I'm not seeing. In the Kansas game I only recall 1 time that Kelly took an entry pass down low with his back to the basket and made a move to score. (It was a nice move too).
    ...
    (shortened for brevity)

    Kelly didn't take that many touches down low in that particular game, but he has been taking quite a few down low. Mason has also been *extremely* active in demanding the ball down low. EXTREMELY active. And he was dominant enough against KU that they had to double team him every time he touched it down low late in the 2nd half.

    Miles hasn't been great, but Mason has been a force down low and provided a real presence. SCACChoops.com has stats on this you can check out. I'll do it for you once I get back from shooting sporting clays--Status Check says it 65 in Philly and time to get outside before the game.

    GTHC!

  20. #60
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    Jan 2009
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    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Maybe I missed some, but you guys must be seeing "post" play I'm not seeing. In the Kansas game I only recall 1 time that Kelly took an entry pass down low with his back to the basket and made a move to score. (It was a nice move too).

    Mason had about 5, back to the basket, in the paint, moves to the rim to attempt to score the entire game. He looked good on a couple of them.
    Somebody feel free to check it out on tape, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I recall.

    Miles..where was he against Kansas as an offensive threat in the paint? He's a senior with size and athleticism, he should at bare minimum have a catch and jump hook.

    Mason and Ryan were active in the post, but it was off plays that had broken down from guard penetration, or offensive rebounding.

    And they played well, I'm not trying to say they didn't.

    But, there has been very little "traditional" post play from the bigs.... the, "I'm holding this spot, give me the ball, I'm gonna turn on you, put a move on you, and score or you're gonna foul me"... plays from them.

    Mason is strong enough and quick enough to get the prime real estate down low almost anytime he wants, and he is athletic enough to get a quality look too.
    Kelly has enough strength now and a nice, soft shooting touch.

    I can only surmise that traditional post play from a big is just not how coach K wants to play. And the winningest coach of all time can play his players any way he wants to.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De7JF...layer_embedded
    Check out play #3

    I also love at the end how Kelly says that the reason he likes being MVP (of course after the team getting the win) is because he can be listed on the same trophy as Wojo who was MVP in 1998 I think?
    “Those two kids, they’re champions,” Krzyzewski said of his senior leaders. “They’re trying to teach the other kids how to become that, and it’s a long road to become that.”

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