WBB: Notre Dame 56, Duke 54 in Bahamas

[Verga3]

53-51 Duke women with 2:00 to go.

[Verga3]

Richa Jackson on line with 1:25 left. 54-51.

[Verga3]

Duke hanging tough after a furious ND comeback. Great experience for this young team. Tied with 3 seconds. ND for last shot.

[Jarhead]

Duke hanging tough after a furious ND comeback. Great experience for this young team. Tied with 3 seconds. ND for last shot.

OK, so what happened?

[Verga3]

ND at buzzer 56-54 final. No video replay available. Really close...

Ok, ladies. Long season.

[burnspbesq]

Pretty sure I wouldn't want to watch a replay. Duke was up by 16 at the half.

[uh_no]

Pretty sure I wouldn't want to watch a replay. Duke was up by 16 at the half.

duke scored 18 points in the second half... EIGHTEEN!

This sort of offensive output is becoming quite characteristic of Coach P teams, which is unfortunate because they have great players but haven't been able to turn it into elite teams. Now don't get me wrong, ND is a VERY good team, and we should be proud to have played them to within two, but I still see symptoms of problems which have haunted duke in the past (ie going dead cold on offense)

I think there will be a few losses in the coming months (lots of top 25 teams) but we won't see a team of ND's caliber again until Geno comes to town at the end of january....

[Verga3]

Pretty sure I wouldn't want to watch a replay. Duke was up by 16 at the half.

To be clear, meant only the replay of the last shot. The announcers felt ND did not get it off in time...and there was no video replay for the officials to review. Hey, it's the Bahamas...we should chill.

IMHO, DWBB will progress and be really good this year. Good experience for this group.

[Verga3]

duke scored 18 points in the second half... EIGHTEEN!

This sort of offensive output is becoming quite characteristic of Coach P teams, which is unfortunate because they have great players but haven't been able to turn it into elite teams. Now don't get me wrong, ND is a VERY good team, and we should be proud to have played them to within two, but I still see symptoms of problems which have haunted duke in the past (ie going dead cold on offense)

I think there will be a few losses in the coming months (lots of top 25 teams) but we won't see a team of ND's caliber again until Geno comes to town at the end of january....

Do you have issues with DWBB and Coach P. Sounds like it. Let me know if I am wrong. Your opinion...that's perfectly fine.

My stance is that we have a young and talented group..with a growing team chemistry and a stellar coaching staff. We should have beaten ND. I promise you that Coach P didn't tell her team after the game that they should be proud to have competed with ND so well. What are the "few losses in the coming months" that you forsee? Hope Coach P has scheduled enough teams to challenge and prepare us. That's her job.

Sorry to be so direct, but I don't support the tenor of your post...AT ALL.

[Mike Corey]

It's time for Duke's stellar recruiting to translate to similar on-court success. This is a crucial season for Coach P and her young staff.

[uh_no]

Do you have issues with DWBB and Coach P. Sounds like it. Let me know if I am wrong. Your opinion...that's perfectly fine.

My stance is that we have a young and talented group..with a growing team chemistry and a stellar coaching staff. We should have beaten ND. I promise you that Coach P didn't tell her team after the game that they should be proud to have competed with ND so well. What are the "few losses in the coming months" that you forsee? Hope Coach P has scheduled enough teams to challenge and prepare us. That's her job.

Sorry to be so direct, but I don't support the tenor of your post...AT ALL.

I grew up in Connecticut. My love for duke basketball has not extended to the women's team as it has for the men. While I truly hope they are successful, I feel no particular connection to the team. I therefore offer the most objective analysis I can.

I think that Coach P puts together teams which will win, but which sometimes fail to find ways to score points. Last year they started 20-0 but in 7 of those games, they scored 65 points or fewer (including 46 against xavier). Contrast that with uconn who in the same timespan had 2 games where they scored 65 or fewer (and never fewer than 63). This inability to score exhibited itself tonight when duke put up 18 points against ND in the second half...its clearly not a one-in-a-million bad shooting night, but some systematic problem that exhibits itself over and over.

Unfortunately it appears narcissistic for me to use Uconn as a standard, I don't think that there is any argument that if Duke wants to be known as a truly elite program, they need to compete with teams like uconn. The 4 meetings the two have had under P have led to 25+ point wins by uconn (including 2 by 35+ last year).

Last year Duke ranked 40th in the country in offense. For comparison, the other "elite teams" stanford, baylor, ND, A&M, tennessee, uconn were all in the top 12. Duke was also 40th the year before.

So do i think duke has an offense problem which is keeping it from being "elite"? absolutely.

[Verga3]

It's time for Duke's stellar recruiting to translate to similar on-court success. This is a crucial season for Coach P and her young staff.

Agreed.

Another cryptic post on DWBB? Say what you think. I'm getting an undercurrent here. Tell me I am wrong.

[uh_no]

Agreed.

Another cryptic post on DWBB? Say what you think. I'm getting an undercurrent here. Tell me I am wrong.

I would hope there's no undercurrent. There have been maybe 4 programs in the country with more overall success than duke has had since p arrived

baylor
stanford
connecticut
tennessee

[Verga3]

I grew up in Connecticut. My love for duke basketball has not extended to the women's team as it has for the men. While I truly hope they are successful, I feel no particular connection to the team. I therefore offer the most objective analysis I can.

I think that Coach P puts together teams which will win, but which sometimes fail to find ways to score points. Last year they started 20-0 but in 7 of those games, they scored 65 points or fewer (including 46 against xavier). Contrast that with uconn who in the same timespan had 2 games where they scored 65 or fewer (and never fewer than 63). This inability to score exhibited itself tonight when duke put up 18 points against ND in the second half...its clearly not a one-in-a-million bad shooting night, but some systematic problem that exhibits itself over and over.

Unfortunately it appears narcissistic for me to use Uconn as a standard, I don't think that there is any argument that if Duke wants to be known as a truly elite program, they need to compete with teams like uconn. The 4 meetings the two have had under P have led to 25+ point wins by uconn (including 2 by 35+ last year).

Last year Duke ranked 40th in the country in offense. For comparison, the other "elite teams" stanford, baylor, ND, A&M, tennessee, uconn were all in the top 12. Duke was also 40th the year before.

So do i think duke has an offense problem which is keeping it from being "elite"? absolutely.

Thanks for responding. Just wanted to get your thoughts and perspective. Appreciate you sharing!

[Mike Corey]

I apologize for coming across as cryptic.

I don't think it's mysterious to suggest that the results under Coach P have not matched Coach P's expectations or recruiting. No one wants to win more than she does.

There has been steady improvement from season to season. It's time to get a breakthrough and make it back to the Final Four.

That said, I think a tough early-season loss to an excellent ND team will provide a great lesson for this team and staff as they work toward that goal which is very much within their reach.

And I'm very excited to root for Coach P and her Blue Devils as this team grows and develops.

[Verga3]

I apologize for coming across as cryptic.

I don't think it's mysterious to suggest that the results under Coach P have not matched Coach P's expectations or recruiting. No one wants to win more than she does.

There has been steady improvement from season to season. It's time to get a breakthrough and make it back to the Final Four.

Completely agree. Coach P's expectations have not yet ultimately been met, nor have those of our diehard DWBB supporters. Hope we can get that breakthrough to the Final Four this year. Think we are on a great trajectory and Coach P and her staff are the reason...recruiting and coaching. They deserve our total support!!!

Sorry if I didn't accurately digest your earlier post. Thank you for coming back, Mike.

[Kfanarmy]

Simply put...While the coach has had some really good defenses, the offense quite often, is atrocious. On several occasions last year and the year before, the team seemed to have absolutely no clue what they were doing on offense, completely breaking down. Ultimately you must outscore the opponent to win in BB, but Coach seems to me to have complete disdain for offensive game planning.

[Jim3k]

Well...Coach P has said, and has been roundly criticized for saying: "Offense is overrated."

Given her own perspective, there are Duke fans who believe that she has admitted to a shortcoming which can be corrected. Yet she seems immune to her own perspective. It's not that the offense is terrible; it's that she doesn't take the bull by the horns. When the team goes cold, as all do, we don't see coaching guidance, say play calling, something designed to break the slump. 0-14, seems to warrant something; 18 points in a half seems to warrant something. Where was it? (I dunno since there was no TV broadcast.)

I'm not suggesting that P should be condemned; I'm saying she could be more effective offensively and she knows it. Ultimately, players decide the game. A couple of field goals, a couple of free throws and it's a different outcome. But did P show them a way to break through? If not, it's on her. If so, it's on the team.

As far as the ND game is concerned, it's over; both the team and she wanted to win. Hopefully, they both grow from it.

[tieguy]

Do you have issues with DWBB and Coach P.

I think I (and other posters in this thread) have an issue with P: we think she's a lousy offensive coach. No one has suggested anything more or less than that.

Ultimately, players decide the game.

If that's true (and I think it's a broad statement that is mostly true but not always), we can say that coaching decides seasons- it sets the tone; it chooses what to emphasize; and in the longer run it recruits particular players to fit the style. P's defense is, as we know, if not the top in the country, close to it. And D will win a lot of games; it won't surprise me if some day it wins a title.

But lets be clear, the offense is putrid. It decides seasons, in the sense that we consistently have stagnant offensive games that define our seasons- big, ugly losses to the UConns and Stanfords of the world in the regular season (I believe we're 1-4 against #1 seeds in the last three regular seasons, the one win being against MD), predictable periods of stagnation against other teams (like yesterday), and a predictable stumble before the final four in March.

It's easy enough to say "players decide the game," but when the offense is *consistently* awful across a span of four years, with different players and lineups, that suggests that coaching is also an issue.

It's also important to note that this isn't just anecdote. The data agrees. Sadly, there is no equivalent to kenpom.com for the women's game, but I spent some time last year running offensive efficiency numbers for the top teams, and Duke was consistently the worst, across multiple seasons. And it was particularly bad in big games. For example, last year, UConn held opponents to an average points per possession of around .7. They held us to a little over .5. In other words, we didn't merely play badly on O against UConn, we played worse than their *average* opponent. And that's a common thread in our big games- we make teams with good D look like they have great D.

P and P's staff are just not good offensive coaches, and that is 50% of the game, so it is very hard to agree with the claim that we have a "stellar" coaching staff.

baylor
stanford
connecticut
tennessee

Other teams I'd add to that list: Oklahoma (two FFs); Texas A&M (one title); Notre Dame (one FF, plays UConn tougher than we do). And commentators on the women's game have noticed. Watch a halftime show of one of our games. In last year's tournament game, the commentators openly talked about how they expected us to gack up a big lead because our offense was not very good, and we obliged, by twice having stretches of 5+ minutes without a FG. A few years ago we were viewed as a first-tier team that just hadn't had the inevitable championship breakout. It's clear that they view us as an excellent second-tier team, whose offensive problems keep us from being great. And that's a shame; we should do better.

[Verga3]

Well...Coach P has said, and has been roundly criticized for saying: "Offense is overrated."

Given her own perspective, there are Duke fans who believe that she has admitted to a shortcoming which can be corrected. Yet she seems immune to her own perspective. It's not that the offense is terrible; it's that she doesn't take the bull by the horns. When the team goes cold, as all do, we don't see coaching guidance, say play calling, something designed to break the slump. 0-14, seems to warrant something; 18 points in a half seems to warrant something. Where was it? (I dunno since there was no TV broadcast.)

I'm not suggesting that P should be condemned; I'm saying she could be more effective offensively and she knows it. Ultimately, players decide the game. A couple of field goals, a couple of free throws and it's a different outcome. But did P show them a way to break through? If not, it's on her. If so, it's on the team.

As far as the ND game is concerned, it's over; both the team and she wanted to win. Hopefully, they both grow from it.

Thoughtful post, Jim3k. I do agree with you that in the end, players decide games. Certainly, Coach P understands the importance of targeted coaching guidance and game management. No coach will be perfect in both these areas all of the time. If, after a well-placed time-out, the called play unfolds seamlessly and the player misses the 3 or the lay-up, what are you going to do? You're going to steel yourself and you're going to play D...hard. Coach P is certainly invested in her teams' embracing her defensive philosophy. ND averaged 88 points a game prior to our game. I don't think any of us are close enough to the program to get specific on the offensive or defensive sets/plays that define this or our earlier teams. I do know that we have recruited good kids and good players. We are young this year. Coaches have to coach...kids have to play. Let's watch everyone's development this year.