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  1. #81
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by feldspar View Post
    Um, that's already happening. I think that's why multiple people are questioning whether you're actually watching the games or only just repeating what (some) talking heads are saying. There were multiple plays last night where Mason was double-teamed and passed the ball to the perimeter for a 3. It's already starting to happen.

    Mason is already a threat inside. Is he a threat like Zeller and Henson? No, and Michigan did a better job containing him and cutting off the low post entry last night, especially with the 1-3-1 zone. But make no mistake, teams are already starting to focus in on him, which is leaving our perimeter more wide open for shots. So your "concerns" about Duke's outside shooting starting to suffer, to me, is a bit unfounded. If teams focus on the perimeter, Mason and Ryan Kelly are going to be able to go 1-on-1 against their defenders. If teams hone in on Mason and Kelly, our backcourt will be wide open to attack the 3-point line. It's only going to keep getting better.
    I watched last nights game pretty close. I do not recall a single play in the second half where an entry pass was made and a post move to score was attempted, much less actually made.

    It's not a focus at this time, and all I'm trying to say is that it will have to become a focus for this team to win a title.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Quote Originally Posted by feldspar View Post
    Which is why I wish Mason would start sealing his man lower, down on the block. He tends to get the ball about three to four feet from the block, either up high toward the free throw line or extended out the baseline. That causes him to want to turn around and make a drive to the basket rather than using a drop-step type move or his running hook shot, which have proven relatively successful.
    Part of that responsibility goes to his teammates and the coaching staff as well. No post player can seal his man forever or stay in the key, so teammates have to get the ball to Mason and our other post players when they have good position rather than wait until he is pushed out or forced out due to the threat of 3 seconds in the key. I do recall one great entry pass to Mason in the middle of the key and believe he was fouled even before he shot. Hopefully, there will be more of that going forward, as I would prefer that he and Miles not have to make very complicated moves after the catch.
    “Those two kids, they’re champions,” Krzyzewski said of his senior leaders. “They’re trying to teach the other kids how to become that, and it’s a long road to become that.”

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mount Kisco, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    I watched last nights game pretty close. I do not recall a single play in the second half where an entry pass was made and a post move to score was attempted, much less actually made.

    It's not a focus at this time, and all I'm trying to say is that it will have to become a focus for this team to win a title.
    I agree about the second half, but I think we operated pretty effectively mid post (see below) in the first half and then Michigan made that a focus and we had to adjust.

    Watching game in and game out, Mason has made a lot more progress then he may have shown in the stretches you have paid closest attention to. However, your observations underscore that his goal should be to get to a level of consistency where, no matter which games you watch and which stretches of those games you watch, he is a meaningful offensive presence. That is a likely unattainable goal, but worth striving for.

    All that being said, he's really coming along, as is Kelly. Kelly busted out some bona-fide Kevin McHale low post footwork and upfakes last night in a first half sequence where he drew a foul on the third fake. Mason has also been effective catching and operating. The difference between Kelly and Mason and, say, Zeller, is that we aren't setting them up in seal and catch situations on the block but rather isolating them mid lane or foul line extended trying to let them use their ball-handling as an advantage. I agree that the term "Mason's ballhandling" has been a historical oxymoron but he's made a big leap this year. I think both guys are more effective catching and operating off the baseline...more mid post. You may feel that we can't be great with bigs who can't operate on the baseline in a traditional seal-and-operate-back-to-the-basket manner, but I don't agree. We'll see what happens, but I think we've got more post offense this year than we have had since Shelden graduated. The opposition will obviously pick up on this and send their guards and wings to try and strip them on the move, and they'll have to effectively redirect.

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    I watched last nights game pretty close. I do not recall a single play in the second half where an entry pass was made and a post move to score was attempted, much less actually made.

    It's not a focus at this time, and all I'm trying to say is that it will have to become a focus for this team to win a title.
    Which is why I say you're not making a complete evaluation of Mason's game. You're making an evaluation based on one game (and, really, one half). Michigan's defense took away the post-entry pass for pretty much the whole game last night. But if you had watched the Tennessee game, you would have seen Mason make a couple very strong moves to the basket from an entry pass, which we've also seen in previous games this year.

    Even that being said, Mason doesn't have to make a post move and score every time to be effective. Like I said previously, there were several plays where he ended up getting double teamed and was able to kick the ball out to the perimeter with success. I recall an ESPN analyst or commentator remarking on something Mason said to him/her in an interview about his goal when he gets the ball this year: accomplish one of three things -- 1) Score, 2) Get fouled or 3) Get double teamed. I'd say he's been very successful at doing that so far, even in last night's game.

    All I'm saying is that you're making some very sweeping generalizations about Mason, and this team's strengths and weaknesses, based on a single game (or two?), when most here have now watched six complete games.

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Roxboro, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    I watched last nights game pretty close. I do not recall a single play in the second half where an entry pass was made and a post move to score was attempted, much less actually made.

    It's not a focus at this time, and all I'm trying to say is that it will have to become a focus for this team to win a title.
    feldspar laid it out pretty good. Last night you saw Duke take what the defense was giving them. The defense packed in to the post and Duke responded with scoring from the perimeter. Go and watch the Tennesse game from the night before and you will see what you are asking for. For extra credit you can watch the Davidson game and see even more.

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    I watched last nights game pretty close. I do not recall a single play in the second half where an entry pass was made and a post move to score was attempted, much less actually made.

    It's not a focus at this time, and all I'm trying to say is that it will have to become a focus for this team to win a title.
    That's because Michigan played a lot of zone and double-teamed the post after every catch. Overall, so far this season, inside scoring has been much more of a focus than it has been over the past five years.

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    From Tennessee, now in DC area

    The Hack a Plum Defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by feldspar View Post
    Which is why I say you're not making a complete evaluation of Mason's game. You're making an evaluation based on one game (and, really, one half). Michigan's defense took away the post-entry pass for pretty much the whole game last night. But if you had watched the Tennessee game, you would have seen Mason make a couple very strong moves to the basket from an entry pass, which we've also seen in previous games this year.

    Even that being said, Mason doesn't have to make a post move and score every time to be effective. Like I said previously, there were several plays where he ended up getting double teamed and was able to kick the ball out to the perimeter with success. I recall an ESPN analyst or commentator remarking on something Mason said to him/her in an interview about his goal when he gets the ball this year: accomplish one of three things -- 1) Score, 2) Get fouled or 3) Get double teamed. I'd say he's been very successful at doing that so far, even in last night's game.

    All I'm saying is that you're making some very sweeping generalizations about Mason, and this team's strengths and weaknesses, based on a single game (or two?), when most here have now watched six complete games.


    I think Mason's Option #2 -- Getting Fouled -- is working for the opposing team so far -- except when Ryan Kelly is able to grab the rebound. I fear that that option is going to be used over and over by defenses until Mason gets better at free throws. A real Achilles heel for Mason right now. Why can't good coaching fix that, I wonder?

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    I watched last nights game pretty close. I do not recall a single play in the second half where an entry pass was made and a post move to score was attempted, much less actually made.

    It's not a focus at this time, and all I'm trying to say is that it will have to become a focus for this team to win a title.
    I'm not sure I completely agree with this. The inside guys just need to score enough to keep the defenses honest. Ideally they'll draw some defensive attention to give the perimeter shooters some more room to operate, and be able to score some points when the outside shots aren't falling. Whether they do this through alley-oops, short jumpers, catching the ball 15 feet out and shooting a running hook, etc. doesn't really matter. They don't NEED to perform traditional back-to-the-basket post moves in order to give us balance, they just need to score somehow.

    One could easily point to 2010 as a year we succeeded without a traditional post scorer. Z and Thomas gave us just enough presence that the defense couldn't ignore them (like you could with, say, Dave McClure) and you had to always keep a body on them to keep them off of the boards.

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Jderf View Post
    I can't help but wonder if Thornton's foul rate is actually encouraged by the coaching staff.
    I agree, I think the coaches want Tyler to play really aggressive defense and not worry about how many fouls he picks up. He rarely commits shooting fouls, they're mostly far away from the basket, so I think they want him to try and generate some turnovers and create havoc. Even when he doesn't foul he gambles a LOT - often leaving his man to try to draw a charge from a big or strip the ball away from someone else. If the offense were to recognize this then they could get a wide open shot. But Tyler sees the whole floor really well and has a knack for gambling at the right times. That's his role right now, and there's no need for him to play more minutes with the other guys that we have.

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