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  1. #61
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    Jan 2009
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    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Quote Originally Posted by Saratoga2 View Post
    What we have seen to date is that our guard play is very solid and improving game to game. In addition, Ryan is an extremely valuable big man who can score, is money from the line, plays good defense and does his share of rebounding.

    That leaves the Plumlee brothers who can either bring this team to really compete for a final four position and beyond or be just a good team. Both Plumlees are physical specimens who have obviously worked very hard on condiitoning and strength.

    Adding to that, Mason catches the ball well and can make good passes. He has developed a jump hook that is hard to stop and is capable of thunder dunks. He doesn't seem to have mastered other moves around the basket and has happy feet when trying to line up other shot possibilities. He has a major weakness shooting from the line. One would think that anyone with the kind of time that he has in practice could do better than 30% from the line. Clearly, defenses can foul him without suffering much of a consequence. Please Mason, solve your free throw issues. While Mason loses his defensive position at times, his athleticism and effort alters what opponents can do against us inside. He doesn't foul all that much so overall he is a very good player who could bring this team further with just a few tweaks.

    Miles is also a gifted athlete but has trouble catching the ball, holding it and doing much offensively when he gets it inside. Can he improve during the rest of his senior season. Zoubeck did so there is hope, but Miles hasn't had physical problems so it is unlikely. His fould shooting is also spotty but he doesn't get to the line that much since he is touching the ball less these days. Unfortunately, he has left 2-3 ppg at the line, but I doubt very much that he is unaware of this issue and hasn't been practising his free throw shooting. We are all hoping that will improve as the season goes on.

    Let us hope that Mason and Miles can improve and play a more dominant role in the two key games to come next.

    This team needs either Mason or Miles to step up their offensive games if it is to compete at the highest levels.

    We
    I would hesitate to lump the Plumlees together too much in any analysis of them as IMO Mason has been one of the best and most consistent players on the team this year. I wouldn't make too many conclusions based on one game. I have been impressed with Mason's offensive game this year as well, as he has been taking the ball strong to the basket and has looked very confident, as if he feels he should dominate. He also has the spin move he has used effectively this year as well as the pump fake reverse dunk. I think he has enough moves to be effective.
    He has left 2-3 ppg on the table by not being able to make free throws and we are all hoping that improves, but I doubt that it is a lack of practice that is the major issue.
    I agree that this team could use Mason or Miles to step up their offensive games to win at the highest levels, and expect one or both of them will provide very good offense in most of the team's games this year.
    “Those two kids, they’re champions,” Krzyzewski said of his senior leaders. “They’re trying to teach the other kids how to become that, and it’s a long road to become that.”

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Washington, D.C.

    What we need

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    I have seen enough to know the bigs are reacting inside and not creating plays.
    If only we had a big like Brian Bersticker!

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Washington/Baltimore
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff0r3 View Post
    Say what you want about our Guard play, Austin River being a BEAST (He is!!!!), Curry being lights out (He is too!!!) and the fact that Dawkins can light it up whenever he gets a chance (He is three!!). The key to our success is the play of Ryan Kelly.. He has that ability to make big plays on both ends of the court. I still feel like he is highly underrated and does a ton of things behind the scenes that continuously get overlooked. Even the big man Jay Bilas missed him a few times tonight.. What does the guy have to do to get the recognition he deserves!! Not hating, just want him to be appreciated by everyone else in the nation!!
    I hear ya - but check the MOTM voting for the last several games. RK has either won it or been right in the mix.

    He's also been starting over Miles.

    (Or are you referring to props from the TV announcers?)

    -Brumby

  4. #64
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    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    If only we had a big like Brian Bersticker!
    Ah, yes, waiting for the old Bersticker reference. :-))

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    San Francisco
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    We should all appreciate what we have this year. I guess it makes sense to point out the negatives and express doubts, but considering what we lost from last year, our current team is a revelation. We have five guys who have a good chance to make one of the three All ACC teams (Seth, Austin, Ryan, Mason and Andre). We are undefeated (so far) against a very difficult schedule. We are exceeding expectations, which is really hard to do at a place like Duke.

    Instead of nitpicking every little mistake, I prefer to consider what our opponents must think when they play us. How can they defend a lineup of Seth, Austin, Andre, Ryan, and Mason? They all need to be double-teamed and none of them can be. Our bigs are very big and very talented and athletic. Most teams can't match up with us inside, and when's the last time we've been able to say that? Our guards are ridiculous. There might be a few better backcourts in the country, but that doesn't mean anybody can guard ours. On how many teams in the country would Quinn Cook be the fifth perimeter player on the depth chart?

    On defense, we've been much better much earlier than anybody could have expected, with so many people in new roles defensively. Yes, once we build a big lead we have tended to exhale and we're not good enough defensively yet to let up even a little and expect to dominate. Still, we've been good enough so far to bend but not break. As we get more comfortable playing D, we'll either play hard for 40 minutes (not letting up after carving out a big lead) or we'll be good enough to exhale without letting the other team get out on a run. Or we won't, but I think we will.

    Put another way, we've been good enough to build leads of at least 13 points in every game we've played, and at least 16 in every game but one. And our D has been good enough to make those leads stand up.

    I'm thrilled with what I've seen from Duke so far this season. I'm sure we'll lose a few games along the way, but this is shaping up as a special year.
    I couldn't agree more with this post. I'm not sure why everyone is focusing on the negatives. Frankly, I was kind of prepared for a loss against Michigan.

    This team is showing a lot of character, and loads of potential. So far, their toughness has been very impressive. I can't wait to watch the next few games. This season is going to be exciting!

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Hudson Valley, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff0r3 View Post
    Say what you want about our Guard play, Austin River being a BEAST (He is!!!!), Curry being lights out (He is too!!!) and the fact that Dawkins can light it up whenever he gets a chance (He is three!!). The key to our success is the play of Ryan Kelly.. He has that ability to make big plays on both ends of the court. I still feel like he is highly underrated and does a ton of things behind the scenes that continuously get overlooked. Even the big man Jay Bilas missed him a few times tonight.. What does the guy have to do to get the recognition he deserves!! Not hating, just want him to be appreciated by everyone else in the nation!!
    Ryan will be the deciding factor as to how far this team goes, IMHO.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    If only he could share some of his basketball IQ with our other bigs. Ryan is truly a Duke student that happens to be a VERY good, fundamentally sound basketball player. I bet K is pleased he jumped into the recruiting of Ryan. Those "intangibles" are an amazing thing. Go Devils!
    Last edited by Devilsfan; 11-23-2011 at 09:32 AM.

  8. #68
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    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by dukeballboy88 View Post
    I dont know wheat, Mason is avg 10 ppg while shooting 11-32 from the line. Ryan is avg 12 ppg and we have played against some good comp at the start of the season. I like the way this team plays, you dont know where the bomb is coming from. They are going to get open looks all season, they just got to knock them down.

    Its going to be a good chance to see how we stack up with Kansas because that Robinson cat is a beast. And, they played Kentucky pretty tough until mid way through the 2nd half so this is going to be a good test.
    Mason is playing better. What I'm talking about that will have to get better is a big sealing a position down low as a threat to score, which forces teams to collapse. If/when that happens,this team can win it all.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Mason is playing better. What I'm talking about that will have to get better is a big sealing a position down low as a threat to score, which forces teams to collapse. If/when that happens,this team can win it all.
    It would be great to see either Mason or Miles be able to seal down low and score, but I don't know if they have that ability. At least not with a big on their back. It's been a while since we've had that type player. What we do have are two guys(Mason & Miles) that can jump very high and are pretty strong. I think Coach K is using both guys according to their abilities. So far I'm pleased with their play. Well not the foul shooting but ok with the other parts of their games. The missing ingredient to have Final Four season may be the lack of a very talented wing(6'7"+). One that can defend the opposing team's wing players and can create offense. At the present time, I guess it's up to Andre to play that role. Offensively he'll be ok, but defending I'm not so sure. GoDuke!

  10. #70
    Great defensive first half. Not as good defense in the second half. Couple that with some ridiculous shooting, and you get a 53 point half.

    Burke and Hardaway are really good players. Hardaway struggled mightily to get going against our defense (scoreless at the half), but he certainly played the part in the second half. Burke was terrific throughout. Novak hit a few late 3s and Morgan was the recipient of several of Burke's assists for easy buckets. Nobody else on Michigan did anything of note offensively for them. It was a matter of containing Burke and Hardaway. For one half, we did a really good job at it. For the other half, we didn't. And Michigan capitalized.

    As for us, we shot the lights out. I don't think we can count on 50+% 3pt shooting every night. But we passed more and mostly took open shots. Continuing that will generally bode well for us. But I'm not all that concerned about our scoring. It's the defense that will be the key.

    The good:
    - Unbelievable perimeter shooting. We got open looks and we hit them early and often. Kelly and Curry were especially efficient from the field.
    - First half defense. Michigan isn't exacty a highly-efficient offense, but we made them look atrocious in the first half. We completely eliminated their best player. Burke did well, but nobody else was a huge factor.
    - Austin's decisionmaking (at times). He made a few very nice passes off the dribble and was willing to make exploratory drives rather than all-out drives. Much more nuanced effort on his part.
    - The long-distance alley-oop from Cook to Mason was very fun.
    - Thornton made two big end-of-shotclock driving plays. One was an off-balance layup that happened to find its way over/around a defender and in. The other was a nice dish to Mason for a dunk. Both negated great defensive efforts from Michigan when Michigan was trying to cut a lead.
    - Mason's passing out of the post. I felt he made a couple of good decisions finding the open man out of the post.

    The not-so-good:
    - Still need to improve on defending dribble penetration. That was the key to Michigan's second half success.
    - Miles had a rough night out there. He just didn't seem comfortable, and it showed (3 fouls, 3 turnovers in 13 minutes). The team played substantially better when we had Mason and Kelly out there. Hopefully he shakes this one off.
    - Dawkins' decisionmaking late. He took some ill-advised early shots when we were in stall-ball mode that led to easy fast break points on the other end. He's such a good shooter and gets so few touches that it's hard to chastise. But we need to do a better job of understanding time and situation late.
    - Thornton's fouls. The guy is an absolute spark out there. Good things seem to happen with him on the floor. But he commits way too many fouls. His foul rate is such that he couldn't really play more than 20mpg. So a bench role is really all he can provide at this point. Thankfully, he's doing that well.
    - Rivers' shot selection (at times). He still hasn't met a shot he doesn't like. It's a blessing and a curse. He hit some VERY long threes in big situations. But I don't feel like those were good decisions. Thankfully they went in anyway. And he still took some very awkward driving shots. As I said in the "good" section, he's getting better. Still a work in progress. And it's nice when a work in progress can average ~1.5 pps and give you 20, 4, and 3.
    - Mason's charges. I think 3 of Mason's 4 fouls were charges, and they all came when he dribbled from too far out and tried to go all the way to the rim. Given that he's a bit methodical in his moves, he has to recognize that the drive from 15+ feet away isn't going to be there very often. Everyone's due an off-night, but that's one clear area for him to polish up.

  11. #71
    Mason had a rough game because he hasn't figured out how to beat a zone defense. And in truth, most bigs will. His charges were just him not knowing how quickly the zone defense rotation happens.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC

    Agree on all points!

    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Great defensive first half. Not as good defense in the second half. Couple that with some ridiculous shooting, and you get a 53 point half.

    Burke and Hardaway are really good players. Hardaway struggled mightily to get going against our defense (scoreless at the half), but he certainly played the part in the second half. Burke was terrific throughout. Novak hit a few late 3s and Morgan was the recipient of several of Burke's assists for easy buckets. Nobody else on Michigan did anything of note offensively for them. It was a matter of containing Burke and Hardaway. For one half, we did a really good job at it. For the other half, we didn't. And Michigan capitalized.

    As for us, we shot the lights out. I don't think we can count on 50+% 3pt shooting every night. But we passed more and mostly took open shots. Continuing that will generally bode well for us. But I'm not all that concerned about our scoring. It's the defense that will be the key.

    The good:
    - Unbelievable perimeter shooting. We got open looks and we hit them early and often. Kelly and Curry were especially efficient from the field.
    - First half defense. Michigan isn't exacty a highly-efficient offense, but we made them look atrocious in the first half. We completely eliminated their best player. Burke did well, but nobody else was a huge factor.
    - Austin's decisionmaking (at times). He made a few very nice passes off the dribble and was willing to make exploratory drives rather than all-out drives. Much more nuanced effort on his part.
    - The long-distance alley-oop from Cook to Mason was very fun.
    - Thornton made two big end-of-shotclock driving plays. One was an off-balance layup that happened to find its way over/around a defender and in. The other was a nice dish to Mason for a dunk. Both negated great defensive efforts from Michigan when Michigan was trying to cut a lead.
    - Mason's passing out of the post. I felt he made a couple of good decisions finding the open man out of the post.

    The not-so-good:
    - Still need to improve on defending dribble penetration. That was the key to Michigan's second half success.
    - Miles had a rough night out there. He just didn't seem comfortable, and it showed (3 fouls, 3 turnovers in 13 minutes). The team played substantially better when we had Mason and Kelly out there. Hopefully he shakes this one off.
    - Dawkins' decisionmaking late. He took some ill-advised early shots when we were in stall-ball mode that led to easy fast break points on the other end. He's such a good shooter and gets so few touches that it's hard to chastise. But we need to do a better job of understanding time and situation late.
    - Thornton's fouls. The guy is an absolute spark out there. Good things seem to happen with him on the floor. But he commits way too many fouls. His foul rate is such that he couldn't really play more than 20mpg. So a bench role is really all he can provide at this point. Thankfully, he's doing that well.
    - Rivers' shot selection (at times). He still hasn't met a shot he doesn't like. It's a blessing and a curse. He hit some VERY long threes in big situations. But I don't feel like those were good decisions. Thankfully they went in anyway. And he still took some very awkward driving shots. As I said in the "good" section, he's getting better. Still a work in progress. And it's nice when a work in progress can average ~1.5 pps and give you 20, 4, and 3.
    - Mason's charges. I think 3 of Mason's 4 fouls were charges, and they all came when he dribbled from too far out and tried to go all the way to the rim. Given that he's a bit methodical in his moves, he has to recognize that the drive from 15+ feet away isn't going to be there very often. Everyone's due an off-night, but that's one clear area for him to polish up.
    Great observations. Perimeter defense was not so good in the 2nd half. As you said dribble penetration hurt us and was the main reason we gave up so many 2nd half points. But in all fairness to Austin, Hardaway hit some tough shots in the 2nd half. Just have to tip my hat to him.
    Andre did take a few ill advised shots late in the game when we were trying to milk the clock. Maybe not the best shot selection. But sometimes, Andre doesn't get the ball when he should. He has that shooters mentality and thinks he's going to make ever shot.
    Tyler is fouling at an alarming rate in few minutes, but I think this comes from not being able to keep the quick guards in front of him. He makes up for this with tough/rough defense. Therefore he's gong to be whistled for more fouls.
    Austin's shot selection. I know he hit a big 3 at the end of the game, but it wasn't in the flow of the offense. Those shots are ok when they go in, but I don't think it was what Coach K wanted in that situation. Austin will be a great player by years end.
    We are an improving team that will only get better. GoDuke!

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    The good:
    - Austin's decisionmaking (at times). He made a few very nice passes off the dribble and was willing to make exploratory drives rather than all-out drives. Much more nuanced effort on his part.
    Yes. This was one of my takeaways from the game as well. There's still a long way to go, but I feel that we are definitely already seeing some hints of progress out of Austin. I'm hoping that by late December, no one will even be talking about Austin's decision-making anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    The bad:
    - Thornton's fouls. The guy is an absolute spark out there. Good things seem to happen with him on the floor. But he commits way too many fouls. His foul rate is such that he couldn't really play more than 20mpg. So a bench role is really all he can provide at this point. Thankfully, he's doing that well.
    I can't help but wonder if Thornton's foul rate is actually encouraged by the coaching staff. Coach K knows that he is only looking for about 20 mpg out of Thornton anyway, so his personal foul count might not be much of a concern. I'm not saying they tell Tyler to specifically go out and foul someone, but it wouldn't surprise me if their position was "Get out there, disrupt their offense by any means necessary, and don't sweat the fouls." Of course, team fouls is another story, but I'm sure the staff knows when to use Tyler and when not to.
    "With seven national titles and 20 Final Fours in the 64-team NCAA Tournament era, Duke and UNC have had more playoff success than any other CONFERENCE." - Al Featherston

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Jderf View Post
    I can't help but wonder if Thornton's foul rate is actually encouraged by the coaching staff. Coach K knows that he is only looking for about 20 mpg out of Thornton anyway, so his personal foul count might not be much of a concern. I'm not saying they tell Tyler to specifically go out and foul someone, but it wouldn't surprise me if their position was "Get out there, disrupt their offense by any means necessary, and don't sweat the fouls." Of course, team fouls is another story, but I'm sure the staff knows when to use Tyler and when not to.
    Given how often we've heard the emphasis on keeping the other team out of the bonus, I doubt that this is the case. I'd guess that more likely the team sees an overall benefit to Thornton's play in spite of the fouls. I suspect they'd like him to foul less, but are willing to take the chance to get some benefit. I'm sure it's a concern, but they're playing the tradeoffs and hoping he can get better at it.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Mason is playing better. What I'm talking about that will have to get better is a big sealing a position down low as a threat to score, which forces teams to collapse. If/when that happens,this team can win it all.
    Um, that's already happening. I think that's why multiple people are questioning whether you're actually watching the games or only just repeating what (some) talking heads are saying. There were multiple plays last night where Mason was double-teamed and passed the ball to the perimeter for a 3. It's already starting to happen.

    Mason is already a threat inside. Is he a threat like Zeller and Henson? No, and Michigan did a better job containing him and cutting off the low post entry last night, especially with the 1-3-1 zone. But make no mistake, teams are already starting to focus in on him, which is leaving our perimeter more wide open for shots. So your "concerns" about Duke's outside shooting starting to suffer, to me, is a bit unfounded. If teams focus on the perimeter, Mason and Ryan Kelly are going to be able to go 1-on-1 against their defenders. If teams hone in on Mason and Kelly, our backcourt will be wide open to attack the 3-point line. It's only going to keep getting better.

  16. #76
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Jderf View Post
    I can't help but wonder if Thornton's foul rate is actually encouraged by the coaching staff. Coach K knows that he is only looking for about 20 mpg out of Thornton anyway, so his personal foul count might not be much of a concern. I'm not saying they tell Tyler to specifically go out and foul someone, but it wouldn't surprise me if their position was "Get out there, disrupt their offense by any means necessary, and don't sweat the fouls." Of course, team fouls is another story, but I'm sure the staff knows when to use Tyler and when not to.
    This.

    It's evident from his play and from the way the staff reacted last night to him fouling out that he's the bulldog. He has five fouls to use and if he ends up using them all, so be it, since we're so deep in the backcourt. Tyler did an excellent job on Hardaway during stretches of the first half and parts of the second. He has fouls to give up, and I won't be surprised to see him get three or four a game on a regular basis. He's the disrupter.

  17. #77
    Loved how Duke looked. We had a relatively clean ball-handling game and out-executed Michigan for open shots, both of which I didn't really expect to happen. The team stepped up big time and played our best first half of the season. Even when the Wolverines were red-hot and creeping back into the game in the second half, I never felt the outcome was in doubt due to Duke having so many guys shooting well and the level of execution. I just felt like we couldn't be stopped in this game and that's a nice feeling to have as a fan.

    As for the side discussion about Duke's post play. This team is getting more post points than any Duke team since Shelden. And Landlord help me, but I think I would take this frontcourt over any during his era, too. I love the height, athleticism, and IQ of this year's starters. Bottom line, I'm very satisfied with the post play and think it will get even better as the season progresses.

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
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    Philadelphia
    Quote Originally Posted by slower View Post
    I'd be curious to see what percentage of Seth's assists go to Andre vs. the percentage of Austin's assists that go to Dre. I know that Austin clearly dished to Dre for a second-half three, but my gut feeling is that Austin just doesn't pass to Dre very much. I'm not trying to create an issue where none exists, it's just my personal impression.
    I concur with this observation, but I don't necessarily think it's an Austin issue so much as I believe Seth looks for Andre more. I had this impression last year as well. My eyes told me Seth had a lot more assists to Andre last season than Nolan did. More even than Kyrie, when Kyrie was out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by jv001 View Post
    It would be great to see either Mason or Miles be able to seal down low and score, but I don't know if they have that ability.
    I happen to think Mason has this ability. The travel calls and the offensive fouls mostly come when he tries to score from the top of the key. To me, he's been looking very solid around the basket, catching in good position, pivoting toward the hoop and laying it in. Obviously, this is easier against shorter players, but his footwork is so much better than it has been in the past, I believe he can score this way against the bigger bigs, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by jv001 View Post
    The missing ingredient to have Final Four season may be the lack of a very talented wing(6'7"+). One that can defend the opposing team's wing players and can create offense. At the present time, I guess it's up to Andre to play that role. Offensively he'll be ok, but defending I'm not so sure. GoDuke!
    Past couple games I've been very happy with Andre's D. (I've also been much happier with his movement on O, but that's a different conversation.) I'm hoping within a month or two we'll all sit back and wonder how some people could possibly have ever advocated reducing his role.

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    The missing ingredient to have Final Four season may be the lack of a very talented wing(6'7"+). One that can defend the opposing team's wing players and can create offense. At the present time, I guess it's up to Andre to play that role.
    Precisely. Further up the road, this will be a serious matter, especially come NCAA time. Teams like St. Johns (see blowout last year with similar team) with quick, strong 6-6 6-7 wing players who pass and move well without the ball are going to give this team fits. Teams like that
    can get it going, get their wings in the lane and start pouring in the shots, and we can't stop 'em; our bigs are too slow, and our smalls are
    too short. This is where Josh really needs to try to step up; we need him at wing defensive stopper like Lance was a couple of years ago
    (who, IMHO, won us some games with his truly great defense on some very tough players, by the way). Unfortunately, Josh doesn't have
    Lance's lateral quickness and lightness on his feet, as far as I can tell. We'll see what he can do.

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post

    I happen to think Mason has this ability. The travel calls and the offensive fouls mostly come when he tries to score from the top of the key. To me, he's been looking very solid around the basket, catching in good position, pivoting toward the hoop and laying it in. Obviously, this is easier against shorter players, but his footwork is so much better than it has been in the past, I believe he can score this way against the bigger bigs, too.
    Which is why I wish Mason would start sealing his man lower, down on the block. He tends to get the ball about three to four feet from the block, either up high toward the free throw line or extended out the baseline. That causes him to want to turn around and make a drive to the basket rather than using a drop-step type move or his running hook shot, which have proven relatively successful.

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