903!! MBB: Duke 74, Michigan State 69 Post Game Thread

[Wheat/"/"/"]

No time to read the thread...sorry in advance if I'm not adding anything to the discussion.

My first look at Duke this season besides one of those not too informative exhibitions...

I thought Duke was...gritty... against a strong MSU team. MSU always plays tough, and Duke played tough too. Coach K's teams rarely back down and this team showed some heart on a big night for K. He'd probably have a hundred fewer wins if he didn't get his teams to play that tough all the time. Coach K is a great coach and anybody who says otherwise is not paying attention.

All that said, I didn't think the Duke team played very well in this one. The positive for you guys is is the old story that good teams "win ugly".

To be a master of the obvious, Dawkins shot it well, very well and was active on D. Shooting like that will bail a team out when they are not playing anywhere near their best, and I thought that was what happened. That and MSU pretty much stunk it up, especially Nix, to start the second half, missing everything and getting caught pouting. Duke cannot depend on that hot shooting too much this season, they better develope something, anything, inside to go with the bombs away. There will be more nights when they don't fall that well than those when they do.

Kelly was solid, Curry was OK...everybody else played sub par. Somebody needs to give a Plumblee a basketball IQ pill. Take two and call us in the morning. All that talent and still making the same dumb mistakes 3 and 4 years later, it's got to drive coach K crazy.

Austin is finding out his ultra-quick first step is only the start of a play. He's got to learn to finish better, whether its at the rack or with a pass. Way too much talent to not become a success, but he's got to commit to getting under control in all aspects of the game.

I was also surprised that Dukes ball handling overall looked so suspect. There were too many times when bigs and wings turned it over on the dribble, or drove into touble and struggled with the handle. That should improve as the season goes along and they get use to playing together against that level of competition.

Still a good win against a good team, and congrats to coach K on an outstanding accomplishment.

[bass-piscator]

I knew the Dre/JJ comparisons would start after last night's game. To compare Dawkins to JJ is ridiculous. I'll take all comers that number 20 will not be hanging from the rafters anytime soon.

On another note, Dawkins did have an excellent shooting night. Curry and Kelly also had very good games. After not missing a shot all night though I thought I saw Kelly wide open near or past the 3-point line on numerous occasions but no one was looking for him. Odd.

Also, IMHO, Miles has hands of stone. How many loose balls and rebounds did he fumble and lose. He should get some lessons from Brian Z. When Zoubek grabbed a ball he made it his.

Lastly, Austin has a lot of learning and maturing to do. He doesn't share the ball and frequently charges the basket in the belief that his considerable skills are going to overcome running into 3 defenders near the basket.

I may be dead wrong on all of the above.

Congrats Coach.

[duke79]

Has Alex Murphy gotten any playing time in the last couple of games? I don't recall seeing him on the floor against Mich St or Belmont? Is he injured or just doesn't fit into the playing rotation at this point in time. I wonder if that will change. If he is going to sit on the bench mostly, I wonder if maybe he should red shirt or perhaps have stayed in high school for his final year. Just a thought. I realize there is value to being on the team and practicing with the team but I have to believe the goal of most of the players is to PLAY in games.

[DukieInBrasil]

One other thing we are so used to that we sometimes forget to mention
3-point shooting is a real strong point for this team
10-21 as a team is outstanding
How many other teams have the depth of outside shooters we have with Andre, Seth, Ryan Kelly, and Austin Rivers?

Not to mention that both TT and QC are shooting 50% so far, only 4-8 combined, but still, they both have the potential to be at least worthy of defending beyond the arc. Neither Murphy nor Gbinije (1-1) have shot enough 3s to be known quantities yet, but are supposedly both capable of making defenders go out beyond the arc with them.
Your point is good though, we have lots of 3pt shooter, and several excellent ones. As a team we are one made 3 short of 50% through 3 games. That's awesome.

[Native]

Has Alex Murphy gotten any playing time in the last couple of games? I don't recall seeing him on the floor against Mich St or Belmont? Is he injured or just doesn't fit into the playing rotation at this point in time. I wonder if that will change. If he is going to sit on the bench mostly, I wonder if maybe he should red shirt or perhaps have stayed in high school for his final year. Just a thought. I realize there is value to being on the team and practicing with the team but I have to believe the goal of most of the players is to PLAY in games.

He is out with a mild head injury. Word around campus is he had a pretty tough collision with Miles in a practice and is slightly concussed. Should be fine.

[DukieInBrasil]

Has Alex Murphy gotten any playing time in the last couple of games? I don't recall seeing him on the floor against Mich St or Belmont? Is he injured or just doesn't fit into the playing rotation at this point in time. I wonder if that will change. If he is going to sit on the bench mostly, I wonder if maybe he should red shirt or perhaps have stayed in high school for his final year. Just a thought. I realize there is value to being on the team and practicing with the team but I have to believe the goal of most of the players is to PLAY in games.

Alex didn't play the first 2 games due to a concussion, or something to that effect. He was only cleared to practice on Monday,so it shouldn't be a great surprise he didn't see game time vs MSU.
I highly doubt that he'll continue to be stuck to the bench.

[feldspar]

This really bothers me too. I understand the need to go to the monitor to make sure that you get things right in a big fracas situation. However, if MSU's Thornton hadn't whined about the little shove that he got from Mason I don't think the refs would have gone to the monitor. The Nix shove to Andre on the FT was even more ticky-tack. If we go the monitor you can find contact like these two examples on probably 50% of all plays. Overuse of the monitor really disrupts the flow of the game. The announcers hinted at Mason's "shove" being an issue because it was a dead ball. Nix's shove was after a made FT. Is this a dead ball situation? The Nix knee to Tyler's head was happening just as a foul was being called and I guess wasn't actually a dead ball. Is this the difference?
Is it the possibility of an elbow being thrown? I know they can go to the monitor for this. Mason's and Nix's shoves could have possibly been elbows so that would make sense but neither of them were actually elbows yet fouls were still called. I know that there are some former refs that post on here. Do any of you have any clarification?

Let me try to tackle this. I think first and foremost, it's not a cut and dry issue, and second, you have to for a moment look at the situation not as a Duke fan, but put yourself in the shoes of the officials.

The officials new this was going to be a physical game from the get-go. We all knew it, and I'm sure they talked in their pre-game about working to minimize the physicality by calling fouls on post-ups, reach arounds, etc, which the did starting pretty early on.

Now fast forward to the Mason Plumlee incident. Little, chippy things like what Mason did are what you're taught to look for when you're trying to keep two teams for going after each others' throats. Those little things add up, and before you know it, if it's not controlled, bad things start happening.

Ok, so Mason goes up for a layup after the whistle is blown. Thornton goes up in a faux defense, for whatever reason. Mason swats at him with his arm. In that moment, it doesn't seem as if any of the officials directly saw exactly what happened. In that moment, they have to ask themselves, "Did Plumlee touch the MSU player? Did he throw an elbow?" It's obvious none of them knew for sure. What is obvious is that they saw "something," but they didn't know what that something was.

Per NCAA rules, if there is a belief that a player MAY have thrown an elbow, the officials are empowered to go to the monitor. If the officials even have an inkling that an elbow or punch might have been thrown, believe you me that this year, they're going to the monitor. Why? Because it's a point of emphasis this year, and they're being judged on every time they do or don't.

So, you've got a group of three officials who, while yes they're trying to do their best to avoid the physicality of the game getting out of control, they're also well aware that they're getting graded on this type of situation. So they go to the monitor.

They do so, and in the process, figure out that no elbow or punch was thrown, but Mason did contact Thornton with his hand/arm. According to the replay rule, if, during the course of looking for a flagrant, you discover a contact dead ball technical foul, you are required to penalize it. Which is what they did.

Everything the officials did with that situation was completely within protocol, and exactly as the rule book says.

So what makes that different than the other situations you bring up? It has nothing to do with whether plays are ticky-tack or not. It has everything to do with whether the officials believe a flagrant foul (such as an elbow or punch) has occurred. So, if a player gets shoved, you're not going to see officials go to the monitor (unless it's an absolutely outrageous shove, like into press row or something that could warrant a flagrant). The other situations you cite (the shove and the knee) occurred during live ball situations. Even so, you can't go to the monitor for a common shove. The knee?? I'm convinced none of the officials saw what we saw on the replay, or they would have gone to the monitor to determine if it was flagrant. And if they had reviewed it, I have no doubt Nix would have received a flagrant and been gone from the game.

[slower]

Also, IMHO, Miles has hands of stone. How many loose balls and rebounds did he fumble and lose. He should get some lessons from Brian Z. When Zoubek grabbed a ball he made it his
.

So here's the thing. It's not necessarily that they have bad hands, although the size and strength of their hands may play a role (note the large number of missed dunks). To me, it's more of a lack of awareness of defenders in their area. I can't count the number of times they have the ball stripped by defenders coming from behind when they are either pulling down a defensive rebound or holding the ball near the top of the key. And, of course, when they put the ball on the floor. They need to be taught (and in fairness, the team as a whole needs to focus more on) to VALUE EVERY POSSESSION, to ASSUME that every time they have the ball, somebody will, indeed, try to strip it from their hands. Those lost possessions could very well be a game-deciding factor at some point. And somebody needs to show Austin video of Demarcus and Gerald's ill-conceived drives to the basket, although I believe he'll correct his early tendency. It struck me last night, after Mason made his great pass to Ryan, how similar the process is, at times, to a quarterback going through his downfield reads. I think Austin will develop that skill of making his reads.

Edit: I agree with Feldspar's post above that MSU's Thornton initiated the incident with Mason by playing "After the whistle" defense, by channeling his inner Garnett (the single most loathesome NBA player since Laimbeer).

[feldspar]

Edit: I agree with Feldspar's post above that MSU's Thornton initiated the incident with Mason by playing "After the whistle" defense, by channeling his inner Garnett (ugh).

Which wouldn't have happened if Mason hadn't played "after the whistle" offense. I know it happens all the time, and I understand what you're getting at, but I'm just saying Mason put himself in a position to be annoyed and retaliate, which he did. Just hand the ball to the official and move on, and that play never happens.

[g-money]

Really? Which ones would JJ have missed?

GREAT game for Dre. But until he consistently shows JJ's mental toughness, ability to create shots from anywhere on the court, physical conditioning and killer instinct, it would be nice for people to stop forcing these Dre/JJ comparisons.

Way to cut and paste one line from my post and proceed to blow it out of proportion. I wrote a single sentence saying that even Redick would have missed some of the contested 3's that Andre hit last night, then you extended the comparison to other aspects of Redick's game and accused me of forcing Redick/Dawkins comparisons. That junk might have worked on your HS debate team but it won't fly here, son.

[Saratoga2]

So here's the thing. It's not necessarily that they have bad hands, although the size and strength of their hands may play a role (note the large number of missed dunks). To me, it's more of a lack of awareness of defenders in their area. I can't count the number of times they have the ball stripped by defenders coming from behind when they are either pulling down a defensive rebound or holding the ball near the top of the key. And, of course, when they put the ball on the floor. They need to be taught (and in fairness, the team as a whole needs to focus more on) to VALUE EVERY POSSESSION, to ASSUME that every time they have the ball, somebody will, indeed, try to strip it from their hands. Those lost possessions could very well be a game-deciding factor at some point. And somebody needs to show Austin video of Demarcus and Gerald's ill-conceived drives to the basket, although I believe he'll correct his early tendency. It struck me last night, after Mason made his great pass to Ryan, how similar the process is, at times, to a quarterback going through his downfield reads. I think Austin will develop that skill of making his reads.

Edit: I agree with Feldspar's post above that MSU's Thornton initiated the incident with Mason by playing "After the whistle" defense, by channeling his inner Garnett (the single most loathesome NBA player since Laimbeer).

To me, Mason's awareness and control of the ball is superior to that of hiis brother. Miles just hasn't shown improvement, whereas Mason is close to breaking out into a reliable and gifted big man. Mason can pass and is solid defensively at times. He is a little weak in his footwork around the basket with happy feet resulting in turnovers. He seems not to get the fact that he traveled when he obviously has done so.

Miles just doesn't seem to know what to do with the ball when he does get it. He gets puts the ball on the floor or brings it down and gets stripped. He can't seem to make the little chippies around the basket. Almost like he has a panic attack when he gets the ball. I just don't see the improvement I would have expected from such a good athlete.

Saying this, both brothers try very hard and are team players.

[brumby041]

Let me try to tackle this. I think first and foremost, it's not a cut and dry issue, and second, you have to for a moment look at the situation not as a Duke fan, but put yourself in the shoes of the officials.

The officials new this was going to be a physical game from the get-go. We all knew it, and I'm sure they talked in their pre-game about working to minimize the physicality by calling fouls on post-ups, reach arounds, etc, which the did starting pretty early on.

Now fast forward to the Mason Plumlee incident. Little, chippy things like what Mason did are what you're taught to look for when you're trying to keep two teams for going after each others' throats. Those little things add up, and before you know it, if it's not controlled, bad things start happening.

Ok, so Mason goes up for a layup after the whistle is blown. Thornton goes up in a faux defense, for whatever reason. Mason swats at him with his arm. In that moment, it doesn't seem as if any of the officials directly saw exactly what happened. In that moment, they have to ask themselves, "Did Plumlee touch the MSU player? Did he throw an elbow?" It's obvious none of them knew for sure. What is obvious is that they saw "something," but they didn't know what that something was.

Per NCAA rules, if there is a belief that a player MAY have thrown an elbow, the officials are empowered to go to the monitor. If the officials even have an inkling that an elbow or punch might have been thrown, believe you me that this year, they're going to the monitor. Why? Because it's a point of emphasis this year, and they're being judged on every time they do or don't.

So, you've got a group of three officials who, while yes they're trying to do their best to avoid the physicality of the game getting out of control, they're also well aware that they're getting graded on this type of situation. So they go to the monitor.

They do so, and in the process, figure out that no elbow or punch was thrown, but Mason did contact Thornton with his hand/arm. According to the replay rule, if, during the course of looking for a flagrant, you discover a contact dead ball technical foul, you are required to penalize it. Which is what they did.

Everything the officials did with that situation was completely within protocol, and exactly as the rule book says.

So what makes that different than the other situations you bring up? It has nothing to do with whether plays are ticky-tack or not. It has everything to do with whether the officials believe a flagrant foul (such as an elbow or punch) has occurred. So, if a player gets shoved, you're not going to see officials go to the monitor (unless it's an absolutely outrageous shove, like into press row or something that could warrant a flagrant). The other situations you cite (the shove and the knee) occurred during live ball situations. Even so, you can't go to the monitor for a common shove. The knee?? I'm convinced none of the officials saw what we saw on the replay, or they would have gone to the monitor to determine if it was flagrant. And if they had reviewed it, I have no doubt Nix would have received a flagrant and been gone from the game.

Excellent explanation.

Thanks!

-Brumby

[Troublemaker]

To me, Mason's awareness and control of the ball is superior to that of hiis brother. Miles just hasn't shown improvement, whereas Mason is close to breaking out into a reliable and gifted big man. Mason can pass and is solid defensively at times.

I agree - can't lump Mason and Miles together for poor hands. Mason has good hands and good court vision and awareness; you can actually run offense through him without worry that he'll be a black hole or a turnover machine. On one possession against MSU, there was a routine pass he made from the lane out to the corner in which he palmed the ball with one hand and pitched it out to the shooter, but it's a pass that Miles can't make with his smaller hands. When Mason goes up for a rebound, he has much cleaner snatches than his brother as well and he's less apt to fumble interior passes. I just really have no complaints about Mason's hands and believe they are actually a good to great set of hands.

[Newton_14]

No time to read the thread...sorry in advance if I'm not adding anything to the discussion.

My first look at Duke this season besides one of those not too informative exhibitions...

I thought Duke was...gritty... against a strong MSU team. MSU always plays tough, and Duke played tough too. Coach K's teams rarely back down and this team showed some heart on a big night for K. He'd probably have a hundred fewer wins if he didn't get his teams to play that tough all the time. Coach K is a great coach and anybody who says otherwise is not paying attention.

All that said, I didn't think the Duke team played very well in this one. The positive for you guys is is the old story that good teams "win ugly".

To be a master of the obvious, Dawkins shot it well, very well and was active on D. Shooting like that will bail a team out when they are not playing anywhere near their best, and I thought that was what happened. That and MSU pretty much stunk it up, especially Nix, to start the second half, missing everything and getting caught pouting. Duke cannot depend on that hot shooting too much this season, they better develope something, anything, inside to go with the bombs away. There will be more nights when they don't fall that well than those when they do.

Kelly was solid, Curry was OK...everybody else played sub par. Somebody needs to give a Plumblee a basketball IQ pill. Take two and call us in the morning. All that talent and still making the same dumb mistakes 3 and 4 years later, it's got to drive coach K crazy.

Austin is finding out his ultra-quick first step is only the start of a play. He's got to learn to finish better, whether its at the rack or with a pass. Way too much talent to not become a success, but he's got to commit to getting under control in all aspects of the game.

I was also surprised that Dukes ball handling overall looked so suspect. There were too many times when bigs and wings turned it over on the dribble, or drove into touble and struggled with the handle. That should improve as the season goes along and they get use to playing together against that level of competition.

Still a good win against a good team, and congrats to coach K on an outstanding accomplishment.

Mason makes one mental mistake. He goes up for a lay up messing around after the whistle and Thornton wants to play tough guy and try to block it. Mason shoves him off and the refs overreact. A bad play on Mason's part, but after that the guy was everywhere. Tough defense, nasty pass to Kelly in traffic, blocks, hustle play where he throws it backwards into Green to cause a turnover, challenging shots, drew numerous fouls on all 3 MSU bigs. Those little baby hooks with either hand, and the sky hook with the right hand are dropping for him now and he is getting better game by game. He only had 3 shots where he wasn't fouled, made 1, the 2nd one was goal tending that wasn't called, and the only miss was a reverse layup on the run. The guy had a big impact on the game. Had a grand total of 2 turnovers.

Miles had a bad night mainly due to being too caught up in the moment. First technical in his career that I can recall. Still played good defense in his limited minutes. 5 Rebounds in 14 minutes. The guy was a 3 star recruit who has improved year over year.

So two mental mistakes, and it leads to the nauseating hyperbole that the Plumlee's are horrible and make hundreds of bad plays each game. (Hint: We have no "Plumblee" on the squad. )

Seth was ok? 20 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 steals, 1 block.

As for the team finding scoring, Andre had 26, Curry 20, Kelly 14, Mason 7. Duke hit 10 three's. The scoring has been balanced all year long with points coming from multiple kids. I expect that will continue. Not a heavy reliance on 3 on the preseason and season. One game does not define the identity of a team. Andre got hot and we fed the hot hand like we should have. He scored in other ways as well. Both he and Seth will hit their fair share of 3's this year as they both are lethal out there. That will force teams to guard and open up the post for the 3 bigs, and driving lanes for Austin.

The only bad thing from last night was not closing out stronger. Fortunately they buried MSU so deep, the poor execution closing out the game only meant the final score did not reflect on the game.

All in all, for a developing team to come out on a highly emotional night, under that kind of pressure, and run MSU out of the gym in the 2nd half, going on a 20-1 run as Sage pointed out, without Austin having a big game offensively, was very good in my opinion. It took a team effort to pull that off and I expect K is very pleased with the efforts of the team last night. 2 regulars had subpar games (Miles/Austin) but the other guys stepped up big time and got it done. Austin will get it going and Miles will play better as well.

[Troublemaker]

Duke cannot depend on that hot shooting too much this season, they better develope something, anything, inside to go with the bombs away

Somebody needs to give a Plumblee a basketball IQ pill. Take two and call us in the morning. All that talent and still making the same dumb mistakes 3 and 4 years later, it's got to drive coach K crazy.

Actually, I think Coach K is quite happy with Mason (but I agree the technical he got was needless). Overall, Mason has probably been Duke's best player through three games. You saw the weakest of his three offensive performances against MSU but prior to that, he's shown good offensive skill for Duke in the post.

[roywhite]

I agree - can't lump Mason and Miles together for poor hands. Mason has good hands and good court vision and awareness; you can actually run offense through him without worry that he'll be a black hole or a turnover machine. On one possession against MSU, there was a routine pass he made from the lane out to the corner in which he palmed the ball with one hand and pitched it out to the shooter, but it's a pass that Miles can't make with his smaller hands. When Mason goes up for a rebound, he has much cleaner snatches than his brother as well and he's less apt to fumble interior passes. I just really have no complaints about Mason's hands and believe they are actually a good to great set of hands.

Generally agree, though I can remember occasions of Mason getting stripped of rebounds (ACC tourny vs Henson, for example), from what appears to be inattention.

Not sure what to say about this problem in regards to Miles; it doesn't appear in every game, but is a troublesome issue for a senior. Seems to involve nerves or confidence, not just physical aspects.
By the way, Ryan Kelly often does a good job of cradling and protecting rebounds or steals that he gets in traffic.

[Troublemaker]

The deepest Coach K Duke team ever (1997-98) still only went 7 deep in close games by the end of the year. And this was a team that had 10 guys average double-figure minutes over the course of the season, and in tough early games went 8 or 9 deep. Our current team is only going 7 deep in tough early games.

So you may be right, but history suggests otherwise.

I hear you about the history, but I think there's a decent chance we could add an 8th guy to the rotation this year. I'd put the odds at 50/50. It would either be Murphy or Cook (or maybe both!). We do have a need for a big wing in the rotation and by many accounts, Murphy is blessed with a high bball IQ which might allow him to integrate faster into offensive and defensive schemes than your typical freshman. He just has to get healthy first and we'll see how it plays out from there. And with Cook, we may need some extra ball-handling against the press, especially when we're trying to protect the lead at the end of games and it's possible he could help out there in addition to the first-half minutes that he's been getting.

[stixof96]

I am going to hold judgement until Duke plays a team with a really strong and talented big man. I am concerned about how that will turn out right now. Duke is loaded again with perimeter players, but, the inside game is still looking for the next Zubek, in my opinion.

[jimsumner]

I am going to hold judgement until Duke plays a team with a really strong and talented big man. I am concerned about how that will turn out right now. Duke is loaded again with perimeter players, but, the inside game is still looking for the next Zubek, in my opinion.

Well, Sullinger certainly qualifies.

But how many ACC teams have a better 4/5 rotation that Duke. Maybe UNC. I can't think of any others.

[Newton_14]

Actually, I think Coach K is quite happy with Mason (but I agree the technical he got was needless). Overall, Mason has probably been Duke's best player through three games. You saw the weakest of his three offensive performances against MSU but prior to that, he's shown good offensive skill for Duke in the post.

Great post

I hear you about the history, but I think there's a decent chance we could add an 8th guy to the rotation this year. I'd put the odds at 50/50. It would either be Murphy or Cook (or maybe both!). We do have a need for a big wing in the rotation and by many accounts, Murphy is blessed with a high bball IQ which might allow him to integrate faster into offensive and defensive schemes than your typical freshman. He just has to get healthy first and we'll see how it plays out from there. And with Cook, we may need some extra ball-handling against the press, especially when we're trying to protect the lead at the end of games and it's possible he could help out there in addition to the first-half minutes that he's been getting.

I will post more on this in the Phase 1 thread, but I am really hoping at least one of Mike and Alex can play well enough to play some minutes no matter the opponent. I am actually surprised K did not play Mike in the first half last night. Mike had been coming in the game in the first half in all games so far. Like you say, having that big wing as a backup to Andre will help a lot. Plus it has the potential to be a One/Two punch with Mike bringing defense and Murphy bringing offense.

Quinn brings a different dimension as well. If he can improve his defense he can be a threat offensively in transition with both passing and scoring, and then a deep threat as a spot up 3 point shooter.

All 3 can possibly help this team this year in different ways.