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  1. #101
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    Feb 2007
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    Cincinnati
    Quote Originally Posted by killerleft View Post
    Either they get back with Joe and report that things were not as the GA reported, or Joe asks them in a day or three and they tell him things are fine. Joe (not being the kind who convicts people on flimsy or no evidence like some on this board are willing to do) takes them at their word, since their dealings with him have always seemed to be conducted with honor.
    If this is accurate I think they would have have had to have said the "GA was wrong" or "things are fine" PLUS "oh, by the way, Sandusky is not allowed to use our facilities with young people anymore". Which I find a little more difficult to accept at face value, personally.

  2. #102

    What would you do?

    What I think most of you fail to take into account is that Joe Pa got this info second hand.

    IMHO he should have asked (forced if possible) the GA to go to the police. Maybe he tried to do that. I personally would not go to the police with an allegation that someone told me. Sandusky would deny it, so getting the Penn State officials involved was probably the right thing to do.

    I wish the GA had gone to the police or any of the other earlier people who witnessed Sandusky other apparent crimes.

    Of course there is a chance that Joe Pa told the GA that he Joe would handle it and no need for the GA to go to the police. In that case, Joe should be arrested.

    At least I now know what I would do in a similar situation. Get the accuser to go to the police.

    SoCal

  3. #103
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    Feb 2007
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    Cincinnati
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDukeFan View Post
    IMHO he should have asked (forced if possible) the GA to go to the police. Maybe he tried to do that.
    Since we're entertaining 'maybes', maybe the GA heard that Sandusky was investigated in 1998, admitted to the mother of a pre-teen that his genitals may have touched her son in the shower, that he was wrong and wanted to die and saw that the investigation was quashed. Maybe thought the police would have given more credence to JP than him and trusted him to do the right thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDukeFan View Post
    I personally would not go to the police with an allegation that someone told me.
    If a 28 year-old who worked for me told me a man who was my top assistant for 23 years had done what was alleged, I would have either seen him vindicated or turned him in. Or I suppose I could have done nothing. For years. And years. Wondering every time I saw him on campus. And thought about his boys 'charity'.

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Cincinnati
    Quote Originally Posted by GDT View Post
    Since we're entertaining 'maybes'
    Hey, SoCalDukeFan, I'm apologizing in advance because I think my quotes are too sarcastic. It's a difficult issue and snark doesn't help.

  5. #105
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lynchburg, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDukeFan View Post
    What I think most of you fail to take into account is that Joe Pa got this info second hand.

    IMHO he should have asked (forced if possible) the GA to go to the police. Maybe he tried to do that. I personally would not go to the police with an allegation that someone told me. Sandusky would deny it, so getting the Penn State officials involved was probably the right thing to do.

    I wish the GA had gone to the police or any of the other earlier people who witnessed Sandusky other apparent crimes.

    Of course there is a chance that Joe Pa told the GA that he Joe would handle it and no need for the GA to go to the police. In that case, Joe should be arrested.

    At least I now know what I would do in a similar situation. Get the accuser to go to the police.

    SoCal
    I respect the fact that reasonable people can disagree about this, but in this context, yes, I believe the seriousness of the allegations, Sandusky's ties to the program, the fact that the alleged crime occurred in football facilities under my supervision, and the knowledge that Sandusky founded a charity that worked with at-risk youth would have compelled me to verify that this was reported to the police or to eventually report it myself. I know that it's easy to criticize the way someone else handles something from afar and that these situations always appear less complicated when you're not caught up in them, but if this allegation didn't call for some persistent follow-up, I don't know what would.

    BTW, not going to the police with an allegation someone told them is one of the two charges facing Curley and Schultz. The law recognizes that there are some situations that compel you to report third party information to the police. While this law doesn't appear to apply to Paterno in this particular situation is does address your general concern about reporting hearsay allegations to the police.

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lynchburg, VA

    Statement from State Police Commisioner

    The Pennsylvania state police commisioner, who has been involved with the investigation for several years, said the following today:

    Paterno may have fulfilled his legal requirement to report suspected abuse by former assistant football coach Jerry Sandusky, state police Commissioner Frank Noonan said, "but somebody has to question about what I would consider the moral requirements for a human being that knows of sexual things that are taking place with a child."

    He added: "I think you have the moral responsibility, anyone. Not whether you're a football coach or a university president or the guy sweeping the building. I think you have a moral responsibility to call us."
    Here's a link to his part of today's press conference.

  7. #107
    For those interested in the PA statute the GJ report says "the person in charge of the school or instituation has the responsibility and legal obligation" to report the alleged abuse. See page 12 below. Perhaps that's why McQueary went to Paterno, and Paterno went to his superiors.

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...-document.html

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by GDT View Post
    If this is accurate I think they would have have had to have said the "GA was wrong" or "things are fine" PLUS "oh, by the way, Sandusky is not allowed to use our facilities with young people anymore". Which I find a little more difficult to accept at face value, personally.
    I'm not sure that the timing of Sandusky's loss of privileges coincides with the first reporting by the GA. I don't think it does. My scenario was only one of several that would still allow Paterno to be without fault (until hindsight is factored in). I'm just trying to inject a bit of caution to the thread. Unless you think Paterno is also a liar, his expanded comments, noted in a previous post, would seem to support my assertion that he did not think the allegations were true at the time. How he arrived at this conclusion is less clear. It is looking likely that the GA didn't go into details of what he saw with JoePa that he did later with others. If it pleases you to believe the worst, then go ahead. We're just speculating, after all.
    Man, if your Mom made you wear that color when you were a baby, and you're still wearing it, it's time to grow up!

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDukeFan View Post
    What I think most of you fail to take into account is that Joe Pa got this info second hand.

    IMHO he should have asked (forced if possible) the GA to go to the police. Maybe he tried to do that. I personally would not go to the police with an allegation that someone told me. Sandusky would deny it, so getting the Penn State officials involved was probably the right thing to do.

    I wish the GA had gone to the police or any of the other earlier people who witnessed Sandusky other apparent crimes.

    Of course there is a chance that Joe Pa told the GA that he Joe would handle it and no need for the GA to go to the police. In that case, Joe should be arrested.

    At least I now know what I would do in a similar situation. Get the accuser to go to the police.

    SoCal

    One thing that I haven't seen in all of these comments is the fact that Paterno *did* arrange for the GA to speak directly to Curley and Schultz. There was a meeting where the GA was able to speak directly to Curley and Schultz. This is what so many are upset about. Curley and Schultz were not only told third-hand by Joe Paterno about the issue, they also met directly with the GA, and Curley and Schultz's only actions were to ban Sandusky from the facility and tell him not to bring people from his charity on campus (and they also contacted the charity about the report as well). They should have gone to the cops.

    I would just like to reiterate that Joe Pa heard second hand from a GA a shocking report about someone Joe knew for years. It was probably hard for him to even believe the report at all. Despite this, he went directly up the chain of command, and even made sure that the GA was heard directly by the people who should hear about this. I think people keep forgetting or don't realize that Joe ensured that the GA met with Joe's superiors about this. This was despite the fact that Sandusky was NOT Joe's employee and hadn't been for several years.

    In hindsight, Joe Pa could and should have done more, but calling for his head over this is a complete misdirection of the rage and anger about this situation.


    Also - I'd like to point out that the connection with Gricar gave me chills when I first heard it...but I honestly think that there were far bigger threats to his life from the massive drug ring that he helped dismantle than anything in connection to this case. I think it makes a great conspiracy theory and would be an interesting plot to a Grisham novel...but nothing else.

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Chapel Hill

    Joe Paterno Failed

    I am shaking my head at the excuses made for Joe Paterno on this board. He apparently committed no crime but he failed in every moral respect. The notion that "reporting it up the chain of command" is all he is required to do does not pass the laugh test. If anyone thinks that Joe Paterno is not the boss at Penn State they would have to say the same about Coach K.

    Let's say this happened with the basketball program at Duke. I would like to hear the argument from anyone who says Coach K would have done the same thing as Paterno did here. At best Paterno failed at moral leadership, at worst he was involved in a cover up. It is clear that someone in the athletic department knew about the 1998 incident and this being at least the 2nd incident, just maybe they were trying to protect Penn State. Paterno has no excuse; he need to go.

  11. #111
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Lewisville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by tendev View Post
    I am shaking my head at the excuses made for Joe Paterno on this board. He apparently committed no crime but he failed in every moral respect. The notion that "reporting it up the chain of command" is all he is required to do does not pass the laugh test. If anyone thinks that Joe Paterno is not the boss at Penn State they would have to say the same about Coach K.

    Let's say this happened with the basketball program at Duke. I would like to hear the argument from anyone who says Coach K would have done the same thing as Paterno did here. At best Paterno failed at moral leadership, at worst he was involved in a cover up. It is clear that someone in the athletic department knew about the 1998 incident and this being at least the 2nd incident, just maybe they were trying to protect Penn State. Paterno has no excuse; he need to go.
    I'm wary of making a comparison here between Penn State and Duke, but since that's your point, consider this:

    I've heard and read Coach K express some regrets about not being more involved in the scandal involving false accusation of the Duke lacrosse players.
    This was certainly not his area of responsibility, but it's fair to say that he felt some moral inclinations to be more involved.
    At Penn State, Sandusky was no longer on Paterno's staff at the time of the incident; he was a retired employee.

    I don't know if you saw the ESPN special on Coach K and Joe Paterno this summer; it was well done.
    I've followed both schools for many years, and always felt there were tremendous similarities between Paterno and Krzyzewski, both in background and approach.
    It was apparent from watching the shows, which included some background chat as well as a panel presentation, that Coach K had tremendous respect and affection for Paterno.

    Again, this is a tricky analogy, but I don't think the case for Paterno's failings to do more is made by guessing about Coach K and what he might have done.

  12. #112
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mount Kisco, NY
    Powerful, front page editorial in today's Harrisburg Patriot News
    http://www.newseum.org/todaysfrontpa...PN&ref_pge=lst

  13. #113
    OK I did not hear the entire story yesterday. Now I have heard it & yes I a deeply concerned, disturbed & furious. I also remember back to the Lacrosse situation so I am going to sit back & reserve final judgement until the entire matter has been through the judicial system. If Sandusky did do as he is accused then that man should burn in the furthest regions of HELL & even that's too good for him.
    My grey area concerns JoePa. He did report what he was told 3rd hand as soon as he found out. Should he have followed up...yes. Should he have alerted the police...probably...no yes he should have. Hindsight is 20/20 and none of us are perfect but these were children so you have to follow up, no question about it. I do believe if Paterno had witnessed this personally, Sandusky would have been in jail. I am very disappointed in Paterno but I do think he believed the matter was reported to the proper authorities & didn't follow-up which was a huge error on his part. Then I do take into consideration he is a gentleman in his 80's who is running a big time college football program. As a daughter of an 87 year mother, let's just say there are times when not all of the dots connect.
    This is the last year of Paterno's contract & I would wager to guess he will retire after this season. It just pains me that this man will forever be tainted because because of the alledged acts of one Jerry Sandusky. My rose colored glasses are off. I guess I am going to have to get used to the idea of Urban Meyer being the next head coach at Penn State.
    As a Penn State graduate & fan I hang my head in shame & embarassment.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by tendev View Post
    I am shaking my head at the excuses made for Joe Paterno on this board. He apparently committed no crime but he failed in every moral respect. The notion that "reporting it up the chain of command" is all he is required to do does not pass the laugh test. If anyone thinks that Joe Paterno is not the boss at Penn State they would have to say the same about Coach K.

    Let's say this happened with the basketball program at Duke. I would like to hear the argument from anyone who says Coach K would have done the same thing as Paterno did here. At best Paterno failed at moral leadership, at worst he was involved in a cover up. It is clear that someone in the athletic department knew about the 1998 incident and this being at least the 2nd incident, just maybe they were trying to protect Penn State. Paterno has no excuse; he need to go.
    He did more than just report it up the chain of command. This is in the grand jury report. He also made sure the primary witness (GA) was able to tell his story directly to the superiors involved. This is significant.

    There is no doubt that Joe Pa could have done more, but I'm not convinced that he failed in every moral respect. Hindsight is 20/20, and we do not have nearly enough information to judge and condemn Joe Pa the way that you and many others are doing.

    Also, anyone close to PSU knows that Joe Pa is NOT the boss at PSU. It is a completely different situation with him than with Coach K. When Coach K talks, people listen. When Joe Pa talks, people might listen, but they also think: "this guy is over 80 years old" and they don't take him seriously. Joe Pa is a figurehead at best. He certainly could have done more, I don't deny that...but the condemnation and judgment people are passing on him already after he's had over 40 years of exemplary service are going overboard. He has earned his trust and respect, and I think that requires us to pass a judgment of charity on him until all the facts are in.

  15. #115
    One other question did Mike McClosky witness this or was it reported to him 2nd hand?

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by tendev View Post
    I am shaking my head at the excuses made for Joe Paterno on this board. He apparently committed no crime but he failed in every moral respect. The notion that "reporting it up the chain of command" is all he is required to do does not pass the laugh test. If anyone thinks that Joe Paterno is not the boss at Penn State they would have to say the same about Coach K.

    Let's say this happened with the basketball program at Duke. I would like to hear the argument from anyone who says Coach K would have done the same thing as Paterno did here. At best Paterno failed at moral leadership, at worst he was involved in a cover up. It is clear that someone in the athletic department knew about the 1998 incident and this being at least the 2nd incident, just maybe they were trying to protect Penn State. Paterno has no excuse; he need to go.
    I'm not sure I would go that far, at least not until we know more. But a couple of thoughts: if anyone had a moral obligation to go to the police, it was actually the GA, right? His was the first-hand account (I think terminology is getting mixed up on this thread) and could vouch for what he saw as an eyewitness. Now, given the fact that the GA, while an adult, was young and very shaken by the experience, I can understand him going to Paterno first - a trusted figure, a mentor, and asking "what should I do?"

    It is at THAT point that I would hope that the head coach would be experienced and knowledgeable enough to realize that he wasn't dealing with a rules violation that required reporting up the chain of command to the AD; rather, he had been approached by one of his subordinates who explained that he witnessed a violent sexual crime on campus, committed by an adult against a child. One would hope that the first thing that springs to the mind of the head coach is, "this describes a crime, ergo, it's a police matter, not a compliance matter." Unfortunately, that did not appear to happen. But maybe he did know the "reporting person" statute for PA and if so, maybe he did realize that the AD, not himself, was the one who would need to contact the police or child protective services. More information is really needed.

    edit: are we really up to "third hand" now? Pretty soon it'll be said that JoePa first heard about the allegations in the newspaper! I was not an English major, but it seems to me that if he was told of the shower rape incident by a person who saw it happening, he heard a FIRST-HAND account. JoePa telling that story to the AD makes JoePa's story a second-hand account. But the GA was the eyewitness, ergo, first-hand. I could be wrong, but if so, how? THanks.

  17. #117
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    I am not pleased that Sandusky was permitted to continue hosting a Penn State overnight football camp as recently as 2009.

    The accounting for how Penn State permitted that to happen, despite its knowledge, will be interesting to hear.

    It does not reflect well on Penn State football or Penn State as a university that such was permitted to happen.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  18. #118
    My bigger question is why didn't the President of the university report it? Spangler has some 'splaining to do.

  19. #119
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    I agree with your points. Of course, Joe Pa should not face criminal charges. No, he should not be summarily dismissed for this event. But I think he had two "appropriate" courses -- neither one taken. One was to be all over the AD in following up after he met with him re Sandusky. I.e., he should have seen it as a threat, not only to young boys, but also to the University (which, of course, it has become). Or, gotten every last detail from the GA, taken notes, and used those notes to talk to both the AD and the police. I think other coaches would have handled it in these ways, including K and other Duke coaches. Another poster made this point.

    This season could be his last act, however, since the hierarchy in the University and the athletic department are likely to change. Those changes could be a signal to retire.

    sagegrouse
    I agree, it appears Paterno missed an opportunity to step up in a dangerous and disturbing situation. Perhaps he did so because he very desperately wanted the GA's report to be a misperception or misunderstanding and he counted on others to look into it, but of course I'm just speculating, and in the end it obviously would have been better for him to follow the train where it led, no matter how painful.

    Quote Originally Posted by SMO View Post
    Not picking on just you, but could the next poster that suggests Paterno could or should be prosecuted please explain to all of us what information s/he has that not only calls into question prosecutors' praise of Paterno, but also demonstrates you have more knowledge about his actions than they do?
    Amen. We can speculate about what Paterno may have known or might have done differently, but nothing has been reported that demonstrates he was actively involved in a cover up or any criminally punishable activity, and if the lacrosse case taught us anything, it should be that it's wise to wait for solid information before throwing criminal allegations around.

  20. #120
    This doesn't have much information about the trial, but it is an earnest description of what a lot of lifelong PSU fans are feeling. I've lived in north-central PA my entire life...with only a few years of college in Western PA (just as close to State College though), so this really rings true.

    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...ing-penn-state

    I think the author really hits the nail on the head. I'm experiencing a lot of cognitive dissonance the more I think about this crime (calling it a scandal seems to trivialize it). It is one thing to love PSU football. However, PSU fans love way more than the football team, they love what the program stands for and the way the "right way" has been upheld with success for so long. Reading about this crime really exposes, in my mind, just how far this allegiance has affected me, and it is clear that it isn't just the football team that I'm a fan of. The trouble is, if it is the program and what the program represents that I've been a fan of, and this has come crumbling down, just "football" isn't really enough to keep me interested.

    I think Duke fans, especially, can understand this. If we just loved basketball, there's a number of other teams we could easily attach ourselves to. It isn't just the game that brings people to be fans, especially the kind of fans that follow the team so diligently that they post on message boards year-round about the team.

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