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  1. #341
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    NYC
    I do not know what happened but the fact that Mcqueary is still there makes absolutely no sense to me.

  2. #342
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New York, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    Paterno invited this with his statement earlier today:

    "I have decided to announce my retirement effective at the end of this season. At this moment the Board of Trustees should not spend a single minute discussing my status."

    Some might interpret this as genuinely trying to let the Board handle more serious matters, but it smacks of arrogance to me (not that being arrogant is grounds alone for hasty action).
    Paterno was toast as soon as it came out that he behaved marginally after a trusted colleague told him about the abuse. He and other senior people were simply never going to see 2012 as PSU as employees. The only question was this week or next month; better this week.

    Paterno's rigidity and arrogance came through when he made the above announcement. I don't much care whether it was face to face or by phone, the dismissal wasn't up for debate, and Paterno was NOT going to make it easy for them even if they felt like delaying the announcement while a board rep tried to wade through the PSU fans who were embarrassing themselves by wildly supporting a guy whose teams they enjoy watching but whose apparent moral failings don't seem to bother them.

    I think it's inappropriate to blame the media for this. Is there a frenzy, as in a lot of media interest? Yes. Have people rushed to judgment? Yes. Is there any indication that a rush/stampede isn't appropriate when we're talking about such behavior?

    Why didn't the board fire McQueary? Because university boards don't spend a whole lot of time dealing with wide receiver coaches; they were focused on their demigod coach and the university president. Nevertheless, I have no patience for someone who simply leaves the scene of such a crime without rescuing the boy, even if the boy is not complaining. Ain't no way McQueary will last until next season, and I'd assume the replacement coach will fire him soon, if not within the next week. And 'd be surprised if he gets a job within football anytime soon.

    And why aren't we talking about Sandusky? The guy is likely to spend the rest of his life in prison as a pedophile rapist. What's there to say?
    Why aren't we talking about the other guys? Because most of us had never heard of them, and they didn't hold themselves up as pillars of American Sport.
    And why am I not worried that, "there but for the grace of God go I (as a Duke fan)? Because while bad behavior can happen anywhere, there is no way that Coach K would sweep this under the rug for a decade.

    And how is this different from politicians having sex with young men? In almost every way.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Saratoga2 View Post
    That said, I liken this situation to a case in a public school where a student goes to respected teacher 2 to report on a similar sex abuse problem regarding respected teacher one...
    I think the analysis breaks down when you complete the facts for the analogy, including the following:

    - Teachers 1 and 2 have been working together for 30 years, and Teacher 2 was Teacher 1's direct supervisor the entire time
    - Teacher 1 had been suspected of sexually abusing children a few years ago
    - Teacher 1 also started a charity on the side, dealing with at-risk children
    - Teachers 1 and 2 are the two richest and most powerful men in town, and in fact Teacher 2 is the most highly paid public employee in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
    - Teacher 2 heads up an after school extracurricular program that grosses $35,000,000 per year for the district
    - The School Board has been unsuccessfully trying for years to get Teacher 2 to step down, but...
    - Teacher 2 is the most powerful man in the entire school system, having taught many of the elected School Board members, and the Superintendent. Teacher 2 effectively runs the district. The only person, not only in the school system, but in the entire town, who can likely ensure that sufficient police attention is given to this potential problem, is Teacher 2. If he just turns over the information he receives from the student to the Superintendent and the Chief of Police, without prompting them to dig as deeply as they might need to dig, they probably, recognizing the trouble it would cause Teacher 2 (and the reputation of the school system generally) will do whatever they can to sandbag the potential problem.

    Whatever really happened here, and whatever exonerating evidence and stories might come to light, the bottom line is that Joe Paterno isn't just "respected teacher" in 2002. He's local demi-god. The phrase has become quite overused in recent years (I'd never heard it before the first "Spiderman" movie came out, and now I hear it seemingly daily), but it seems apt here: with great power comes great responsibility. I think that's part of the reason why Paterno's being looked at so harshly here. Things may change as more and more facts come out, and I'm certainly not done weighing facts and withholding judgment. But at the moment, at best for Paterno it looks like the final conclusion may likely be that for whatever reason (willful ignorance, older generation's inability to deal directly with sexual deviants, decreased judgment based on age, personal friendship blinding him from obvious signs), Joe Paterno did not use his great power to ensure that justice was carried out in this instance. In some instances, that's not that big of a deal. But in this instance, it's a huge, huge problem, as it involved allegations of perhaps the most disgusting and heinous of all crimes.
    Last edited by Mal; 11-10-2011 at 12:40 PM. Reason: adding financial angle, as well

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post
    Because while bad behavior can happen anywhere, there is no way that Coach K would sweep this under the rug for a decade.
    What % of PSU students and alumni do you think, as of a week ago, would have said the same thing about Joe Paterno?

  5. #345
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    I remember Paterno coaching when I was a kid back in the 60s. Joe PA was a god in PA; he was bigger
    there than Deano ever was in NC. To have it end like this is truly one of the saddest endings to a great
    sports career of all time. As for Sandusky, I'm guessing the rest of his life in prison will be short indeed;
    pedophile rapists usually do not survive long in prison. He'll be fortunate if he dies before he's convicted.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    I have seen mentions of this on twitter too. I would prefer we stay away from speculating about this until there is some more solid evidence. What we have right now is a rumor that some zealous members of the media are mentioning as a rumor. In my book, that hardly qualifies as something worth discussing at this point.

    --Jason "repeating a rumor does not make it true... I am disgusted at the low standards for journalism these days" Evans
    It might be worth noting that the guy who is reporting this rumor wrote a newspaper column about the Sandusky story in April (link below). So he might be a credible source.

    http://www.timesonline.com/columnist...r-comment-area

  7. #347
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by JG Nothing View Post
    Is Paterno mentally competent now? Was he mentally competent ten years ago?
    I don't know. But after several days with little or no sleep, during a time when many folks are treating him like a leper, it would be totally understandable if Paterno wasn't at the top of his game right now.
    Man, if your Mom made you wear that color when you were a baby, and you're still wearing it, it's time to grow up!

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by J4Kop99 View Post
    I do not know what happened but the fact that Mcqueary is still there makes absolutely no sense to me.
    And the relative disinterest in him from the media is incredible. don't they and the trustees have an obligation to pursue questions about him? If they choose not to, can we fire them?

  9. #349
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by SMO View Post
    And the relative disinterest in him from the media is incredible. don't they and the trustees have an obligation to pursue questions about him? If they choose not to, can we fire them?
    Here are the issues with McQueary -->

    - He reported it when he saw it. If the university fires him, what are they firing him for? It's hard to picture how it would not be retaliatory. When the new coach comes on at end of season, McQueary is gone. As Duval said, why invite another lawsuit?

    - I think I've, personally, been able to distinguish McQueary's and Paterno's whistleblower claims in that Paterno himself had the ability himself to ban Sandusky from the program, and he never did. The Board of Trustees is cleaning house with anyone that had the ability to make a change and didn't do it.

    - As johnb said, McQueary's job isn't a BOT level issue. If he does get let go, it will be by Bradley or the acting AD. But again, we need to understand WHY he would be let go. I am sure he is an at will employee, so PSU is able to can him at their pleasure unless it is retaliatory -- that's illegal.

    I'll postscript all of the above by saying I think McQueary failed on a personal/moral level to do what was right the minute he saw Sandusky still hanging around the program in the months after he reported the incident. But from an employment law perspective -- he did what he was supposed to, and letting him go now sets potentially sets PSU up for another lawsuit.

  10. #350
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by SMO View Post
    And the relative disinterest in him from the media is incredible. don't they and the trustees have an obligation to pursue questions about him? If they choose not to, can we fire them?
    I will be shocked if there isn't an extensive internal investigation into the PSU administration, athletic department and football program. I will also be shocked if the results of that report do not lead to many more firings.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    Here are the issues with McQueary -->

    - He reported it when he saw it. If the university fires him, what are they firing him for? It's hard to picture how it would not be retaliatory. When the new coach comes on at end of season, McQueary is gone. As Duval said, why invite another lawsuit?

    - I think I've, personally, been able to distinguish McQueary's and Paterno's whistleblower claims in that Paterno himself had the ability himself to ban Sandusky from the program, and he never did. The Board of Trustees is cleaning house with anyone that had the ability to make a change and didn't .

    lawsuit.
    Paterno also reported it when he heard it and arranged for the story to be told again. They would have to fire McQueary for the same reason they fired Paterno, presumably, for not doing enough (although they failed to specify).

    Sandusky didn't report to Paterno when this took place, so how was Paterno supposed to ban him? The "he's Joe Paterno so he can do whatever he wants" argument rings hollow and would suggest Joe Paterno had some obligation to investigate and punish any individual doing something wrong within PSU athletics.

  12. #352
    following up on a-tex devil,

    McQueary has got to be a key prosecution witness in Sandusky's trial.

    I started to write more but since IANAL, I should just let those with law training take it from there.

    I suspect PSU is going to be spending a TON of money on defense attorneys.

  13. #353
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    NYC
    Quote Originally Posted by SMO View Post
    Paterno also reported it when he heard it and arranged for the story to be told again. They would have to fire McQueary for the same reason they fired Paterno, presumably, for not doing enough (although they failed to specify).

    Sandusky didn't report to Paterno when this took place, so how was Paterno supposed to ban him? The "he's Joe Paterno so he can do whatever he wants" argument rings hollow and would suggest Joe Paterno had some obligation to investigate and punish any individual doing something wrong within PSU athletics.
    Yeah, I'm with you 100%. I mean, of course Paterno is held in much higher regard and people expect more of him... but Mcqueary made the SAME moral mistake. He is not as big a figure on the PSU campus but he still could have (and should have) easily called the police or done whatever people wanted Paterno to do.

    I just do not see any reason for them not to fire Mcqueary. It's ridiculous.

    Edit: And we still do not know for sure what Mcqueary told Paterno. People want Paterno to ban Sandusky from campus... that is not his job. In theory, Paterno may have more power on the PSU campus, but the AD and President are the people that should have made that decision. We also do not have any idea what Schultz and Curley told Paterno after he relayed Mcqueary's message. There is a lot of assumption going on right now in terms of actual specifics.

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by SMO View Post
    Sandusky didn't report to Paterno when this took place, so how was Paterno supposed to ban him? The "he's Joe Paterno so he can do whatever he wants" argument rings hollow and would suggest Joe Paterno had some obligation to investigate and punish any individual doing something wrong within PSU athletics.

    Former players have said in interviews that Sandusky was around the team well after his official departure in 1999; others have pointed out Paterno's involvement - and presumed endorsement - of Sandusky's The Second Mile organization long after 2002. I think if JoePa wanted him away from the team, he could have easily said so. I don't report to coach Cutcliffe but I think if I started hanging around practice, the weight room, etc., I'd be told to get lost/I'd get banned/asked if I had a good kicking leg.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by cspan37421 View Post
    Former players have said in interviews that Sandusky was around the team well after his official departure in 1999; others have pointed out Paterno's involvement - and presumed endorsement - of Sandusky's The Second Mile organization long after 2002. I think if JoePa wanted him away from the team, he could have easily said so. I don't report to coach Cutcliffe but I think if I started hanging around practice, the weight room, etc., I'd be told to get lost/I'd get banned/asked if I had a good kicking leg.
    And would Coach Cut's removing you from practice have prevented you from molesting anyone?

    Would Paterno saying "don't come to practice anymore" have saved his job???

    You also suggest Paterno's involvement with Second Mile was inappropriate. Have you seen the list of people on its board? Are they complicit too???

  16. #356
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    NYC
    This is my main issue with Mcqueary:

    He walked in on a boy (ten years old) getting raped by a grown man in a shower and did nothing. He left and went home to talk to his dad.


    He witnessed the crime happening and did not act on it. I understand that this is not technically illegal but I find that even worse than anything Paterno did/didn't do.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by J4Kop99 View Post
    This is my main issue with Mcqueary:

    He walked in on a boy (ten years old) getting raped by a grown man in a shower and did nothing. He left and went home to talk to his dad.


    He witnessed the crime happening and did not act on it. I understand that this is not technically illegal but I find that even worse than anything Paterno did/didn't do.
    Remember Pulp Fiction... Bruce Willis went back to save Ving Rhames from those rapists, and Ving had been trying to kill Bruce just moments before! Note, I'm not making light of your point - my point is, everybody in the theater knew Bruce HAD to go back and save Ving, and Ving was nowhere near as sympathetic as a 10-year-old kid. How can you live with yourself if you don't go back?

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by davekay1971 View Post
    This is an incredibly sad saga, and there are no heroes here. Tragically, the lack of heroes undoubtedly increased the number of child victims.

    Why did McQueary not pull the child out of the shower at the moment he saw the crime in action? Why did he not call the police immediately upon witnessing a heinous crime in action? When he told Paterno, and eventually nothing came of that action, why did he not pursue the matter either with the AD or, more appropriately, the police?

    As for Paterno, recognizing a long and honorable career, I still believe he absolutely should have been fired, immediately, for being informed of a crime being committed by his associate on a child, and not aggressively pursuing the matter, not only through the AD, but with the law.

    I can't help but put myself in the shoes of the father of one of the children that Sandusky assaulted - either that poor child in the shower, or any of the children attacked by Sandusky afterwards. I would have no sympathy at all, and tremendous anger, at anyone who knew about the crime witnessed by McQueary, who did not do everything in their power to bring Sandusky to justice for that crime, and prevent the crimes he committed later on.
    Well said and well reasoned. Obviously, a very sad way for Joe P to end his coaching career BUT, given the nature of what allegedly took place (and, if true, I consider sexual molestation of children to be among the most heinous of crimes), EVERYONE at Penn St who had an inkling of what might be going on had an obligation, moral or otherwise, to act as aggressively and as rapidly as possible to stop the actions of this individual, including going to the police immediately. Obviously, no one other than the direct participants knows exactly what transpired but the initial facts being reported do not reflect well on ANY of the people named, including Joe P.

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by SMO View Post
    And would Coach Cut's removing you from practice have prevented you from molesting anyone?

    Would Paterno saying "don't come to practice anymore" have saved his job???

    You also suggest Paterno's involvement with Second Mile was inappropriate. Have you seen the list of people on its board? Are they complicit too???
    Take it easy! Gosh.

    1. I was responding to your question, "how was Paterno supposed to ban him?" from the football facilities. I gave an example why I think it would be easy - and would be done in my case if Cutcliffe didn't want me around. I never claimed it would have stopped a molestation. I pointed it out because Sandusky continued to hang around the program long after one of Paterno's employees told him he saw Sandusky molesting a boy in the shower in the football facilities. Paterno runs that program - he may not be able to enforce a ban by himself, but he sure could issue one if he wanted to. In fact, they did tell Sandusky not to bring boys around anymore, right? So they could have also told him not to bring himself around anymore too, if they wanted.

    2. No, but that's irrelevant. Saving his job is another matter, having nothing to do with banning Sandusky. Saving his job would have been to recommend calling authorities right away instead of treating it like a violation of NCAA rules.

    3. You're failing to distinguish some things here. I WAS THE ONE WHO POSTED THE LIST OF HONORARY BOARD MEMBERS! So OF COURSE I have seen the list of people! As far as I know, McQueary didn't go to THEM to tell them what he saw; so why would I think of them as complicit? He went to JoePa. And someone here pointed out that they determined through internet caches (the wayback machine or something like that) that JoePa was on the board at least through 2008. Was that inappropriate? Well, if I had heard what JoePa did, I think I'd find another charity to support. And I hope as heck I'd make that call to authorities right away. At the very least I'd sit there and have McQueary make it.

  20. #360

    McQueery

    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    Getting back on the McQueary/retaliation question. McQueary, technically, reported the incident correctly back in 2002 to both the coach and the AD, etc. Setting aside his moral duty to see justice through if he saw what he says he saw, if Penn State fires him now because he "didn't do enough" back in 2002, it just seems "weird" to me from a technical standpoint, and seems retaliatory as well.

    I believe McQueary should resign, but the more and more I think about it, I kinda get why PSU hasn't canned him yet. As an employee, he did what he was supposed to, even as a person he did not.
    I've avoided posting in this thread before now because I basically had nothing to add to the outrage. Like the great majority of you, I agree Sandusky appears to me a monster and while he deserves his day in court, if found guilty, I hope he never seens the light of day.

    As for Paterno, I'm bugged by the what did he know, when did he know it dilemma. As hard as it is to believe he didn't have a hint of what was going on (he didn't know Sandusky was being investiaged in 1998?), I want to learn more befor I condemn the man or second-guess his firing. I do think if what's been reported is true, he was unbelievably lax in following up McQueary's report ... According to the testimoney, he was told on a Saturday and he set up a meeting Sunday? Jeez!

    But to me, the No. 2 villian in this entire story is McQueary. I can't believe he still has a job.

    What we KNOW -- based on McQueary's own testimony -- is that he saw Sandusky anally raping a 10-year-old boy in a deserted shower. His response was to run away, cally his daddy and go home. The NEXT DAY he reported what he saw to Paterno.

    McQueary was not a scared kid ... at the time of the incident, he was a 28-year-old man.

    Believe me, I'm not a hero and I've made plenty of bad decisions in my life, but I can't believe that if I saw an older man raping a 10-year-old boy, I wouldn't act to stop it. I think 99 percent of you would to ... and the other one percent would immediately rush to a phone and call 911. The 28-year-old athlete called his daddy, ran home and left the boy to further abuse. Yeah, he told Joe (the next day) and talked to the AD the day after that. But he has stayed on campus the last nine years and seen Sandusky around campus on numerous occassions. He knows that there was no follow up.

    How many more young boys were abused because McQueary ran away, passed the buck, then kept his mouth shut?

    In McQueary's care, there is no hearsay involved. He saw it. He did nothing.

    Maybe Joe should be fired for the good of the school,. But Scott McCreary should be gone too. He may have fulfilled his legal obligations, but he is damn coward who has no business coaching young men. Firing him now is not retaliatory -- it's like the firing of the AD, the president and the vice president of Penn State(and to some extent Paterno) ... it's recognition that men in a leadership position didn't behave as we expect leaders to behave.

    As for the school ... I think the fact that they recognized that something was going on -- by banning Sandusky from bringing kids on campus -- and yet failed to notify authorities leaves them open to massive liabilities, especially for anyone abused after 2002.

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