Results 1 to 17 of 17
  1. #1

    Harvard Predicted to Win Ivy League

    For the first time in Ivy League men's basketball history, Harvard has been selected as the preseason pick to win the 2011-12 League title by panel of 17 media representatives.

    http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/sport...School_History

    The big surprise here is that there are as many as 17 sports media people who follow Ivy League basketball. Anyway, Go Tommy!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Quote Originally Posted by hurleyfor3 View Post
    For the first time in Ivy League men's basketball history, Harvard has been selected as the preseason pick to win the 2011-12 League title by panel of 17 media representatives.
    This may be the first time, but it won't be the last. Tommy has recruited at a ridiculous level for an Ivy. He is bringing in real legit athletes to play for Harvard -- several of them are guys who could be playing at BCS level schools.

    -Jason "the question this year is how high a seed will they get" Evans
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Tommy has long been one of my favorites. A class act all the way.

    What a great way to revive his career after Michigan, where he took over a scandal-ridden program and couldn't bring it all the way back.

    At one point, he was considered K's heir apparent. Then, he dropped off the radar screen. Now, he's back in the discussion.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO

    Tommy! The Rock Opera?

    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Tommy has long been one of my favorites. A class act all the way.

    What a great way to revive his career after Michigan, where he took over a scandal-ridden program and couldn't bring it all the way back.

    At one point, he was considered K's heir apparent. Then, he dropped off the radar screen. Now, he's back in the discussion.
    Just to stir the pot... Lessee.... Don't you believe the combo of Amaker and Harvard can continue to bring in a lot of good basketball players? And as the Old Ball Coach says, "He can coach 'em up." Let's say, over the next 5-6 years Harvard dominates the Ivy League and begins to show up in the national polls as a Top 25 team.

    Sounds like a strong candidate to succeed K, unless JD or someone else makes a strong move.

    sagegrouse
    'Plus, with an endowment of $27 billion, I suspect the Hah-vahds can make it worth his while to stick around for the nonce'

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Just to stir the pot... Lessee.... Don't you believe the combo of Amaker and Harvard can continue to bring in a lot of good basketball players? And as the Old Ball Coach says, "He can coach 'em up." Let's say, over the next 5-6 years Harvard dominates the Ivy League and begins to show up in the national polls as a Top 25 team.

    Sounds like a strong candidate to succeed K, unless JD or someone else makes a strong move.

    sagegrouse
    'Plus, with an endowment of $27 billion, I suspect the Hah-vahds can make it worth his while to stick around for the nonce'
    Good point. One thing Harvard has in common with Duke--the coaches have to recruit players who can meet higher-than-normal academic standards. At Harvard, though, Amaker has to do it without athletic scholarships, which are forbidden in the Ivy League (though need-based aid is permitted). If he can succeed consistently with those constraints, he belongs in the discussion at Duke.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Lewisville, NC
    Tommy is doing a great job building the Crimson program. If the team wins the Ivy, and even makes some noise in the NCAA tourny, I wonder if the Harvard crowd will pick up basketball fever.
    Will some funds be found for a modern basketball arena?

    Wouldn't be surprised if the 2011-12 Harvard team gets into the top 25.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by roywhite View Post
    Tommy is doing a great job building the Crimson program. If the team wins the Ivy, and even makes some noise in the NCAA tourny, I wonder if the Harvard crowd will pick up basketball fever.
    Will some funds be found for a modern basketball arena?

    Wouldn't be surprised if the 2011-12 Harvard team gets into the top 25.
    Interesting question. I feel like Harvard has an Ivy League ambivalence about sports--they love to do well when they can, but they don't want to look like they are trying too hard.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New York, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by MCFinARL View Post
    Good point. One thing Harvard has in common with Duke--the coaches have to recruit players who can meet higher-than-normal academic standards. At Harvard, though, Amaker has to do it without athletic scholarships, which are forbidden in the Ivy League (though need-based aid is permitted). If he can succeed consistently with those constraints, he belongs in the discussion at Duke.
    My impression is that the average NCAA-level basketball player would have family financial resources such that they would get a full ride at an Ivy League school.

    Amaker got the admissions office to lower its standards to allow him to be competitive, a move that has caused a lot of consternation/envy around the Ivy League.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post
    My impression is that the average NCAA-level basketball player would have family financial resources such that they would get a full ride at an Ivy League school.
    I had not thought about this, but the new NCAA rule allowing schools to add a $2000 stipend on top of scholaships given out would seem to place the Ivies, who do not give athletic scholarships, at a disadvantage.

    -Jason "then again, getting a Harvard degree is worth a heck of a lot more than $8000 versus a degree from almost any other school" Evans
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO

    Talking Tommy at Harvard

    Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post
    My impression is that the average NCAA-level basketball player would have family financial resources such that they would get a full ride at an Ivy League school.

    Amaker got the admissions office to lower its standards to allow him to be competitive, a move that has caused a lot of consternation/envy around the Ivy League.
    I think I have respond to comments about Harvard a zillion times, and I have no affiliation or predilection there, except in support of the Amakers. Here's what I understand to be the story:

    Harvard "lowered" standards by adopting the same standards set and applied by the Ivy League and the rest of the Ivy League schools. I do not believe Tommy had anything to do with it, but it was part and parcel with hiring a serious coach for the basketball program.

    There were two regrettable NY Times stories about three years ago -- basically some sports reporters in search of a Pulitzer Prize who ended up missing the real story.

    The first was the lowering of standards combined with supposed NCAA violations. The story the Times missed is that Harvard was, for once, showing sign of trying to win. In addition, there were allegations of "cheating:" (a) soon-to-be assistant coach Kenny Blakeney played pickup ball with some prospects and (b) the horror, the horror -- Tommy arranged to bump into the father of a prospect at a Shop-Rite and exchanged a few permitted pleasantries. The NCAA dismissed any and all charges.

    The second article was a total joke -- only the reporter never seemed to understand how ridiculous the story was. Tommy had committed to taking 19 players into the start of practice and then cut to 14 for the varsity and assigning the rest to the JVs. He changed his mind (came to his senses) and made cuts prior to practice, telling the JV that players they could earn a battlefield promotion to the varsity squad. The father of one of the players so relegated called the NY Times and complained that Tommy had prevented his son from being a Division I basketball player because it was too late to transfer to another Division I school. Let's see if I have this straight: the 15th to 19th best player at one of the worst basketball programs in Division I had a future at another Division I basketball program? Now exactly where else did he propose to play if he couldn't crack the top 14 at Harvard? This is in the same class as the late unlamented Andrew Giuliani's lawsuit against Duke for ruining his professional golf aspirations by kicking him off the team, when he was not even good enough to make the seven-player travelling squad.

    sagegrouse

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post
    My impression is that the average NCAA-level basketball player would have family financial resources such that they would get a full ride at an Ivy League school.

    Amaker got the admissions office to lower its standards to allow him to be competitive, a move that has caused a lot of consternation/envy around the Ivy League.
    Sagegrouse has already responded eloquently to the second part of your post. I'll just say a little about the first.

    It's true that Harvard has a generous financial aid policy, providing grants rather than loans and declaring that families with annual incomes of under $60,000 (soon to be $65,000) are not expected to contribute to their children's college costs. I'm sure you are right that many basketball players' families would qualify under this standard, but I have no idea whether the "average" player, particularly the "average" Ivy League player, could. It seems pretty clear that there are at least a couple of scholarship players at Duke (and probably more than a couple) who would not qualify for a full ride under this standard.

    And there is a difference between getting an athletic scholarship and applying for need-based aid, which requires filling out a lot of forms and revealing a lot of financial information. Coach Amaker couldn't guarantee a full scholarship to a recruit without knowing his exact financial circumstances; that's got to be a least a little bit of a disadvantage.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New York, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    I think I have respond to comments about Harvard a zillion times, and I have no affiliation or predilection there, except in support of the Amakers. Here's what I understand to be the story:

    Harvard "lowered" standards by adopting the same standards set and applied by the Ivy League and the rest of the Ivy League schools. I do not believe Tommy had anything to do with it, but it was part and parcel with hiring a serious coach for the basketball program.

    There were two regrettable NY Times stories about three years ago -- basically some sports reporters in search of a Pulitzer Prize who ended up missing the real story.

    The first was the lowering of standards combined with supposed NCAA violations. The story the Times missed is that Harvard was, for once, showing sign of trying to win. In addition, there were allegations of "cheating:" (a) soon-to-be assistant coach Kenny Blakeney played pickup ball with some prospects and (b) the horror, the horror -- Tommy arranged to bump into the father of a prospect at a Shop-Rite and exchanged a few permitted pleasantries. The NCAA dismissed any and all charges.

    The second article was a total joke -- only the reporter never seemed to understand how ridiculous the story was. Tommy had committed to taking 19 players into the start of practice and then cut to 14 for the varsity and assigning the rest to the JVs. He changed his mind (came to his senses) and made cuts prior to practice, telling the JV that players they could earn a battlefield promotion to the varsity squad. The father of one of the players so relegated called the NY Times and complained that Tommy had prevented his son from being a Division I basketball player because it was too late to transfer to another Division I school. Let's see if I have this straight: the 15th to 19th best player at one of the worst basketball programs in Division I had a future at another Division I basketball program? Now exactly where else did he propose to play if he couldn't crack the top 14 at Harvard? This is in the same class as the late unlamented Andrew Giuliani's lawsuit against Duke for ruining his professional golf aspirations by kicking him off the team, when he was not even good enough to make the seven-player travelling squad.

    sagegrouse
    I think we've somewhat disagreed about this one for a couple of years. I've always liked Amaker and Blakeney, but it's fairly clear that they tried to skirt some NCAA rules regarding contacts with recruits (eg, Blakeney playing pick-up games with prospects immediately prior to his signing a contract as a coach; Amaker "running into" the father of a prospect). These activities didn't lead to NCAA charges, but, if they were done by Calhoun or Pitino, this thread would not be so charitable.

    The issue of academic standards is more complicated, but it's clear that Harvard lowered its own requirements at the exact time they hired Amaker. I don't know whether or not Amaker stipulated this in his own recruitment to be coach or whether it simply reflected Harvard's overall decision to start winning some games, but I don't think there's any question that he was able to offer admission to some players who would previously have been completely off limits. Is this bad or good? Who knows, but it did open up recruiting. One ramification to his getting in a top 25 class was that he recruited over some of the players who were already on the team. That meant that he wouldn't have a place for them. Instead of telling a handful of players in the spring that they were getting kicked off the varsity team, he had told them there would be tryouts in the fall. He went back on that pledge and instead cut five of them in September without the promised tryout. Would these 5 have transferred out if they'd known they wouldn't even have a tryout in the fall? Again, who knows, but it was an error from my perspective--regardless of whether or not these players were good enough to play for a different Div I team.

    When you take in some of the recruiting faux pas, as well as his mixed runs at higher profile places like Michigan and Seton Hall, I'd say that Amaker isn't among the most likely candidates for Coach K's job.

    This is a typical story from a couple of years ago: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/02/sp...pagewanted=all

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO

    Harvard Really Needs a Better Gym

    Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post
    I think we've somewhat disagreed about this one for a couple of years. I've always liked Amaker and Blakeney, but it's fairly clear that they tried to skirt some NCAA rules regarding contacts with recruits (eg, Blakeney playing pick-up games with prospects immediately prior to his signing a contract as a coach; Amaker "running into" the father of a prospect). These activities didn't lead to NCAA charges, but, if they were done by Calhoun or Pitino, this thread would not be so charitable.

    The issue of academic standards is more complicated, but it's clear that Harvard lowered its own requirements at the exact time they hired Amaker. I don't know whether or not Amaker stipulated this in his own recruitment to be coach or whether it simply reflected Harvard's overall decision to start winning some games, but I don't think there's any question that he was able to offer admission to some players who would previously have been completely off limits. Is this bad or good? Who knows, but it did open up recruiting. One ramification to his getting in a top 25 class was that he recruited over some of the players who were already on the team. That meant that he wouldn't have a place for them. Instead of telling a handful of players in the spring that they were getting kicked off the varsity team, he had told them there would be tryouts in the fall. He went back on that pledge and instead cut five of them in September without the promised tryout. Would these 5 have transferred out if they'd known they wouldn't even have a tryout in the fall? Again, who knows, but it was an error from my perspective--regardless of whether or not these players were good enough to play for a different Div I team.

    When you take in some of the recruiting faux pas, as well as his mixed runs at higher profile places like Michigan and Seton Hall, I'd say that Amaker isn't among the most likely candidates for Coach K's job.

    This is a typical story from a couple of years ago: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/02/sp...pagewanted=all
    Thanks for your rejoinder. I knew there were prior conversations but I couldn't remember who they were with. Let me point out out a couple of points where (he says hopefully) I think I have an edge in the argument. One is that Harvard adopted the Ivy League standard, used AFAIK by all the other Ivy League schools. So I don't know what you mean when you say "caused a lot of consternation/envy around the Ivy League." I mean, is the "consternation/envy" because Harvard decided to stop being a doormat? As part of the same point, you say,"Amaker got the admissions office to lower its standards." So, the brand new hoops coach walks over to Harvard Admissions, pounds the desk and says, "Here's the way things are now!" Uh,... but I will give you poetic license to connect his arrival with the lowering to the Ivy League standard: he might not have come otherwise.

    Second, as to the point that the roster problem occurred only because he "recruited over some of the players that were already on the team." C'mon! Harvard was awful. Every new coach tries to upgrade. The only charge that ever sticks is when a coach recruits over perfectly good players that he himself recruited. I mean, did K get criticized for recruiting over Mike Tissaw and Chip Engelland, who were there when he arrived? But then there is the concept of "recruited over" applied to an Ivy League school which doesn't offer athletic scholarships. Doesn't this water down the case a good bit, as well? I agree that the roster designations could have been handled better by Tommy. I'm tickled mostly at the Times' falling for the story that the poor lad was prevented from having a D-I basketball career, when, as the song goes [NOT!], "If you can't make it here, you can't make it anywhere, here's to you, old Har-vard U!"

    sagegrouse
    'What does the gym seat? 1200 people?'

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Princeton, NJ

    For all that is holy ...

    Please Tommy. Get the hell out of Harvard so my visits here will not consistently make me throw up in my mouth. Thanks. My bona fides as a fan of yours are (is?) impeccable as the high school scrapbook I kept of every newspaper article I could find of the teams you played on will demonstrate. I would be happy to submit it into evidence at any time.

    Orange & Black "Wouldn't USC or Oregon be a great place to show of your tremendous abilities?" Sheep

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange&BlackSheep View Post
    Please Tommy. Get the hell out of Harvard so my visits here will not consistently make me throw up in my mouth. Thanks. My bona fides as a fan of yours are (is?) impeccable as the high school scrapbook I kept of every newspaper article I could find of the teams you played on will demonstrate. I would be happy to submit it into evidence at any time.

    Orange & Black "Wouldn't USC or Oregon be a great place to show of your tremendous abilities?" Sheep
    USC? Pass.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Thanks for your rejoinder. I knew there were prior conversations but I couldn't remember who they were with. Let me point out out a couple of points where (he says hopefully) I think I have an edge in the argument. One is that Harvard adopted the Ivy League standard, used AFAIK by all the other Ivy League schools. So I don't know what you mean when you say "caused a lot of consternation/envy around the Ivy League." I mean, is the "consternation/envy" because Harvard decided to stop being a doormat? As part of the same point, you say,"Amaker got the admissions office to lower its standards." So, the brand new hoops coach walks over to Harvard Admissions, pounds the desk and says, "Here's the way things are now!" Uh,... but I will give you poetic license to connect his arrival with the lowering to the Ivy League standard: he might not have come otherwise.

    Second, as to the point that the roster problem occurred only because he "recruited over some of the players that were already on the team." C'mon! Harvard was awful. Every new coach tries to upgrade. The only charge that ever sticks is when a coach recruits over perfectly good players that he himself recruited. I mean, did K get criticized for recruiting over Mike Tissaw and Chip Engelland, who were there when he arrived? But then there is the concept of "recruited over" applied to an Ivy League school which doesn't offer athletic scholarships. Doesn't this water down the case a good bit, as well? I agree that the roster designations could have been handled better by Tommy. I'm tickled mostly at the Times' falling for the story that the poor lad was prevented from having a D-I basketball career, when, as the song goes [NOT!], "If you can't make it here, you can't make it anywhere, here's to you, old Har-vard U!"

    sagegrouse
    'What does the gym seat? 1200 people?'
    'The issue other Ivy League teams have isn't that Harvard is breaking the rules. Its that they are no longer requiring more than the minimum, that they are allowing in recruits that barely reach the necessary academic index number.' http://www.ballinisahabit.net/2011/0...went-from.html

    What I gather is that Tommy may bring in as many recruits at the Ivy League minimum he wishes, and the minimum is roughly a 3.3 GPA with a 1050 math verbal. In contrast, Football may bring in maybe one guy a year at the minimum and Hockey, which has a fair amount of leeway, no where close to the Ivy League minimum. Overall, recruited student athletes must be within 1 SD of the mean of the student body, another Ivy requirement. This means that in order to accommodate Basketball at Harvard, other coaches may be given slightly less leeway. 20 percent of the entering class at Harvard are athletic team related admits. Harvard has to take academics as do all Ivies seriously in terms of what negative impact there may be in allowing too lenient admissions standards.

    It sounds like Tommy's approach is similar to the one undertaken by Bill Foster when he came to Duke. He eliminated 80% of the top playes in the country and then focused on the 20% who were more conceivably Duke material academically.

    I think there are lessons here in gauging what will work at Duke. Stanford is recruiting elite talent in Football facing academic requirements similar to Ivy League schools recruiting football players.

    Our Basketball recruiting is not suffering these days, but our Football recruiting certainly is. What Tommy has done with Harvard in Basketball, poor facilities, selling the education, can be done with Duke Football, with its relatively better facilities, provided we go out and target student athletes who are conceivably Duke material academically.

    Here is another irony - if we raised admissions cutoffs for Football to where they were for Sloan and Spurrier, we might actually improve Football recruiting. Football would need to follow more of the Tommy Amaker, Stanford approach, singling out kids among elite prospects who were more accomplished students and really going after them.

  17. #17

    amaker

    I'm glad that sagegrouse reminded us of the deceitful smear job that the New York Times did on Tommy -- and how it's created a lingerinjg impression that he's done something wrong or skirted the rules while at Harvard. It's funny, the NY Times used to be a respected bastion of journalist -- the paper of record. But in recent years it's become just about as shady and unreliable as the Durham Herald-Sun. What the NY Times did to Tommy is very similar to its warped coverage in the Duke Lacrosse Hoax -- and in both cases "the paper of record" has refused to apologize and correct the mistakes it made.

    As for the Kenny Blakeney issue, I understand why there is an ethical question about this ... but you have to understand that this is VERY common practice in recruiting circles. It happens every year that coaches put off formally hiring assistants until after the July recruiting period. I first came across it in the spring of 2006, when I found myself sitting next to King Rice at the Bob Gibbons Tournament of Champions. I was surprised since I had heard that Rice had been hired by Kevin Stallings at Vanderbilt -- but the TOC was in a no contact period and it was illegal for coaches to watch the players during the event. Rice -- with no shame or apology -- explained that while he was GOING to be hired by Vanderbilt, he wouldn't officially go on the payroll until the week after the TOC. He was quite upfront about it -- it allowed him to get in extra evaluation. Legally.

    It goes on. The NCAA take is that as long as the prospective coach doesn't actively recruit for his new school, he can watch or even play pickup games (for evaluation) or even talk to the kids and the parents just to get to know them (I realize this is hard to police ... if he talking to them in general terms or for huis new school?).

    Using Blakeney's action to question Tommy's ethics is a bit like using K's 2002 trip to England to question his ethics. In both cases, the coaches took advantage of a loophole in the rules to gain an advantage. The difference is that K found the loophole first and used it, while Tommy was merely using a long-established loophole.

Similar Threads

  1. Amaker at Harvard
    By timmy c in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 100
    Last Post: 03-14-2011, 02:14 AM
  2. Harvard
    By BlueHeaven in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-09-2009, 03:44 PM
  3. Harvard Beats Yale 29-29
    By willywoody in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 11-26-2008, 09:48 PM
  4. Bilas Predicted ACC Finish
    By gw67 in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 08-27-2007, 12:28 PM
  5. Tommy Amaker to Harvard
    By davec in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 04-11-2007, 03:49 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •