The Hammer of God

[Olympic Fan]

In view of the debate we had on this thread about the relative merits of the milestones Derek Jeter (3,000 hits) and Jim Thome (600 home runs) achieved earlier this summer, I thought we might want to weigh in on the significance of Mariano Rivera's twin milestones -- first, becoming the second reliever in baseball history to reach 600 saves ... then within a week passing Trevor Hoffman as the altime saves leader.

How high does that achievement rank in the baseball pantheon?

I have to say, even though I am a diehard Yankee fan and naturally worship Big Mo, I continue to believe that the achievement of closers is somewhat overvalued. Historicaly, it's such a new position -- being the greatest closer is almost like being the greatest DH; We didn't really have closers until the 1970s and we didn't have the one-inning specialist until the 1980s (go back and look at the innings pitched by a guy like Goose Gossage in the mid-1970s, compared to Rivera or Paplebon today).

The problem that creates is lack of historical perspective. We voted Bruce Sutter, one of the first "great" closers into the Hall of Fame. But today he's tied on the alltime save list with Jason Isringhauson and behind such guys as Todd Jones, Jose Mesa and Rob Nenn. Are they Hall of Famers?

The other problem is that closers play such a small portion of the game and the season. For his career, Rivera has played in 1039 games and pitched in 1209 innings.

By contrast, a good starting pitcher -- let's say Mike Mussina, who is not quite Hall of Fame quality, pitched in 3,500 innings -- almost three times as many. An everyday player like Jeter, who is Rivera's contemporary with the Yankees, has played in more than 2,400 games ands played in over 20,000 innings. When you measure a player's overall contribution, shouldn't that be taken into account?

If you believe in WAR (which I don't), then Rivera comes in at 189th alltime, not only behind guys like Jeter and Thome, but well behind Mussina, Andruw Jones and Carlos Beltran. Well, I told you I don't quite buy WAR, but clearly the system doesn't value closers very highly.

As guess we can agree that Mariano is the greatest closer of all time. Beyond that, I'll bet we have a lot of different opinions.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Mariano got #603 today as the Yankees clinched a playoff birth with an afternoon victory over the Rays. With a win tonight (CC is going for his 20th - again...) coupled with a Boston loss tonight against the O's, the Yanks can clinch the A.L East title, pretty much a foregone conclusion whether it happens tonight or not. Big question is: can the RSox hold on to the wild card spot?

Now to your question - is Mariano worth more to the Yankees than Jeter for the last 15 years? Hard to say, but they wouldn't have won as many games, or titles, without either one of them. But which one has been more unique in what they do? Got to be Mariano, just for his consistency and near perfection year after year after year after year after ...

It's been a pretty amazing year for the Yankees so far. Let's look at the numbers:

3000? Check!
602? Check!
28? TBD!

[Olympic Fan]

The Yankees got the division title when Boston lost the Orioles (again!) and the Yankees won the nightcap to sweep today's twin bill.

Unfortunately, Sabathia did not get No. 20. He dealed Hellicksonn on even terms -- leaving the game after 72/3s. He left with one out in the top of the eighth and the bases loaded. Robersoin came in and got Zobrist to ground into a double play.

In the bottom of the inning, we'e got Golston on third (pinch-running for Swisher, who doubled) when they walk Texiera and Cano. Two outs and the Yankees pinch-hit Posada, whi singles in two runs. Soriano gets the save.

king of neat that the Core three all contribute to the sweep -- Jeter has two hits, a walk and two runs in the opener; Rivera saves the opener; Posada drives in the game-winning runs in the night cap.

Ozzie, I guess you and I have to disagree about the relative value of Jeter and Rivera. Agree that Rivera is the greatest closer in history, while Jeter is only the 3rd-to-5th best shortstop of all-time, but even the 10th best shortstop in history would be more valuable than the No. 1 closer.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

The Yankees got the division title when Boston lost the Orioles (again!) and the Yankees won the nightcap to sweep today's twin bill.

Unfortunately, Sabathia did not get No. 20. He dealed Hellicksonn on even terms -- leaving the game after 72/3s. He left with one out in the top of the eighth and the bases loaded. Robersoin came in and got Zobrist to ground into a double play.

In the bottom of the inning, we'e got Golston on third (pinch-running for Swisher, who doubled) when they walk Texiera and Cano. Two outs and the Yankees pinch-hit Posada, whi singles in two runs. Soriano gets the save.

king of neat that the Core three all contribute to the sweep -- Jeter has two hits, a walk and two runs in the opener; Rivera saves the opener; Posada drives in the game-winning runs in the night cap.

Ozzie, I guess you and I have to disagree about the relative value of Jeter and Rivera. Agree that Rivera is the greatest closer in history, while Jeter is only the 3rd-to-5th best shortstop of all-time, but even the 10th best shortstop in history would be more valuable than the No. 1 closer.

Oly, I said Mo was more unique, not more valuable. But you know what, I'll say it now. Just knowing Mo was there shortened the game in the other team's mind - "we gotta get 'em before Mo comes in or it's over", and it was. Tremendous psychological advantage for the Yankees, every game, whether he pitched or not. He was always lurking just 400 feet away...

Nice game recap. Hip, hip, Jorge! And we never had to call on Pettitte to come out of retirement this summer